Beating Women

Layth

Peace,

I have to add my comments here that the notion that women are to be beaten according to a Sunni/Shia common understanding of verse of 424 is totally unfounded.

The word Darab does not mean beat in its natural state, it means to put forth.

Therefore, when God Darab an example it means He is putting it forth...When the Angels Darab a person, it means they are putting forth their hands against him (which is where the undertsanding of beat/strike comes from).

All verses in the Quran are to be studied in relevance to the subject and not simply in promotion of existing misunderstandings or behaviours.

424 deals with marital problems...If people believe that a good smack will make their wife start listening to them and bring harmony to the marriage, then my only comment is that either these people have never been married, or, such people are violent and abusive by nature.

phoenix1

yes its obvious to all of us.

lol

unknownuser

Peace All

Brothers Arnold and Layth, you state that daraba must mean to separate but why? Please don't tell me because its illogical to hit a woman. Maybe my logic is faulty due to what society has told me is right and wrong. So I need quranic proof because the quran is the criterion, not what society dictates. I kind of agree with you that if my husband hit me i'd feel so hurt, but then again i wouldn't do something so horrible as what defines nishooz either. If you all could clearly explain your position on why it cannot possibly be to hit and has to be to separate, it would be very beneficial to all who seek knowledge, including myself.

I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.

I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?

Also, if we only hit during self defense then why do we flog the adulterers? This is also a form of physical punishment.

unknownuser

I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.

Peace sister

I'm actually on holiday for a week in one great city on the Australian ocean, i thought I will never be able to use the net during this period but decided to have a drive with my car around the area and managed to hack into some not very secure wireless connections, LOL, they can only blame themselves, anyway I would like to add a comment to you, what you said above is 100% right and also applies to any object, like the sea (moses stirkes the sea with his staff), the ground (Moses strikes the ground with his staff), in addition to a human as you clearly explained above, indeed in sura 2 Allah ordred Moses to strike the dead man with parts of the cow (Idrabuhu),exactly as Idrabuhunna) see the Hu and te Hunna, are Damirs referring to humans (dead or alive)

I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?

There are many verses in the Quran that talk about circumstantial separation between the husband and the wife, due to time restriction and me sitting on the street, i will only provide one verse which talks about the separation between the husband and wife during the menstruation period

And they ask you about menstruation. Say It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

(222)

-> See the Arabic words " ", "keep aloof from ", and " ", "do not go near them ", very clear dear sister, unlike those who are suggesting that Adrabuhunna means to seprate from them (total non sense if you ask me sister)

On the other hand, for Idrab to mean "to travel" we need the word "FI" after it somewhere in the sentence to make it means as such, you know many examples in the Quran regarding travel in the land (Idrab FI Al Ard), here is an example that means travel in the sea

And certainly We revealed to Musa, saying Travel by night with My servants, then make for them a dry path in the sea, not fearing to be overtaken, nor being afraid.

(77)

-> See dear sister " ", "make for them a dry path IN the sea"

I.e. we need the word "FI" along with the word Idrab to mean to travel in the land or the sea

The word Idrab on its own or having a Mafool Bihi as a person (Dead or Alive) "i.e. The verb is done to that person" must mean to STRIKE, it can never mean to separate, this is 100% wrong dear sister

Also, if we only hit during self defense then why do we flog the adulterers? This is also a form of physical punishment.

exactly sister, does not sound like the feel good religion to me

Got to go mate, my wife should be spueing by now (where the hell I'm)

Take care

Samia

Salaam all

First of all, "daraba" in classical arabic does not mean to beat (smack). This is a novel meaning. It means (strike to kill). In the quraan we have 474 (fa darbur riqaab) beating necks?! or killing?
If you say beat, then where? with waht? How many/often?The quraan used different words for darab (hash-sha/ wakaza with a stick, sakkat slapped..). If this is considered a punishment,; how wouldn't God give the details of which part of the body to beat, with what and/or how many (beats)?

Secondly where in the quraan do individulads apply / excute the punishment?

Third If an adultress would not be punished by her husband, how come some one "expected" to be naashiz would be beaten?

Third God mentions the two genders when a punishment is applied (assaariqu wassariga (thieves)...azzaaniya wazzaani (adultrers)) and showed that they have the same punishment. How com the male "naashiz" does not receive the same punisment?

Fourth How can a weak, old, crippled, or sick husband, or a husband married to a adughter/sister/ relative of a powerful man { a criminal (a mafia member) , a policeman/officer, his boss...} beat his wife (their daughter) without fearing the retribution of the family or her defending herself? Remember, God did not set a mecanism for the wife not to strike back. She is a naashiz, after all, and not from the category described just before this part of the verse (and the believing, reserved oness...). This will make the conclusion that weak and helpless husbands cannot make use of this "privilege" although they are the ones who need it; whereas powerful women will not get it, whereas they are the ones who may "deserve" it. Isn't this what is going on? Savage husbands beating helpless women?

Fifth How can God set this very unfair situation which is against all devine justice where the the husband is the "victim", the "two" witnesses, the prosecutor, the judge and the executor?

I think anyone who believes that (adribuuhunna) is a punishment and means beat them does not know God nor understands His system.

Layth

Salam Boost,

Brothers Arnold and Layth, you state that daraba must mean to separate but why? Please don't tell me because its illogical to hit a woman. Maybe my logic is faulty due to what society has told me is right and wrong. So I need quranic proof because the quran is the criterion, not what society dictates. I kind of agree with you that if my husband hit me i'd feel so hurt, but then again i wouldn't do something so horrible as what defines nishooz either. If you all could clearly explain your position on why it cannot possibly be to hit and has to be to separate, it would be very beneficial to all who seek knowledge, including myself.

When God tells us to do something, then it is not upto us to have a choice in the matter we hear & obey. Therefore, just to get this point out of the way, if God told us that a problematic wife was to be strung-up and shot, then I would be the first to support/promote such a law...

Now, back to the subject of nushooz. Nushooz means to rise / go above.

This can be seen clearly in 5811 where people are told to Nushooz from the place of gathering/sitting.

Therefore, the issue we are dealing with here is not adultry or some other act of immorality, but rather it is a subject of a women rebelling against her husband or a man rebelling against his wife (going above them, not acknowledging the other, not listening, deserting them, etc.).

Now, when the man is the one doing the Nushooz what does the Quran tell us to do with him

And if a woman fears from her husband desertion (nushooz), or ill-treatment, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do. (412

It tells us that they should reconcile...It does not say that the woman should smack the man in the head or bring her men-folk to do so in order to knock some sence into him...It says they should talk, and reconcile, since obviously this is an issue where the man cant stand the woman any longer and has thus rebelled` from her.

Now we move on to the example of when a woman is the one doing the nushooz

The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion (nushooz), then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and go forth from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great. (434)

Now, if we look at the subject matter, it is of a woman who cannot stand her man and therefore has rebelled from him...As with the example of the man being the one rebelling, there are steps to calm things down and to bring harmony into the marriage...Knowking a woman in the face if she can`t stand her man and has rebelled against him will only make her hate him more and possibly commit a felony while he is asleep.

This is why any subject needs to be studied with a review of all relevant verses as well as the context...Otherwise we do what the Sunnis/Shia have done and manipulate God`s laws to justify the evils that come from ignorance or deliberate ignorance.

I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.

There is no such grammer law that states a word means one thing when applied to humans and another when applied to objects/items! Also, you need only look at 1811 to see that the above argument holds no water as God is Yadrib on the ears of the people of the cave while they slept (was God smacking/hitting them?).

I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?

Darab = to put forth (that is the original meaning of the word). The only reason it can sometimes mean hit/strike is because you are putting forth your hand when you strike someone. In such cases you will see that the Quran specifies that which is being hit 812, 850, 4727. Wherewas the verse is 434 does not specify any part being hit (the face, arms, legs, body, etc.) and therefore would fall back to the natural state of the word which is to put forth.

unknownuser

Salam Sister BOOST

sounds like a ping pong game in here and I really don't want to be a cause for any confusion on your side therefore this will be my last comment to you regarding this subject

firstly if you use that meaning proposed by Layth, "to put forth" you will end up with a non sensible Quran verse

see "Put the wives forth" does not make any sense indeed, on the other hand they keep blaming the claear meniang of the sunni and shaia which is non admissable argumemnt that only incline a case of desperation, it is not like everything the sunni said is wrong, indeed many things the sunni said is right and I pray to Allah that you donlt get dragged into that sunni mockery, if you read Arabic here is what many Arabic speakers said regarding the word "Idrabuhunna", I choose to follow their understanding because indeed it is what i found can only fit in the verse, so here it is in Arabic and if you don't read Arabic please let me know so i translate it to you

{ } , , . . 7435 - , , , , { } . * - , , , , , . 7436 - , , , , . 7437 - , , , , , , { } . 7438 - , , , , { } , , , , , . 7439 - , , , { } . 7440 - , , { } . 7441 - , , , { } , ; . 7442 - , , , , , , . * - , , , , . 7443 - , , , , , , " " . 7444 - , , , " , " . 7445 - , , , , { } . 7446 - , , , , . 7447 - , , , { } , . 7448 - , , , , , . 7449 - , , , , { } . * - , , , , , , , .

Salam sister and I wish you all the b est in understanding this very easy to understand Quran verse

phoenix1

Maybe my logic is faulty due to what society has told me is right and wrong.

BOOST, your LOGIC cannot be faulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maybe you are not thinkng clearly because of the influence society has on you. But don't ignore logic because it can be "faulty."
The answers lie in verification. If you verify that beating your wife doesn't do any good, then you shouldn't do it.
I know that beating others doesn't solve anything, and that's why, regardless of what the quran says, I will not beat my wife.

Layth

Dear Ahmed,

Put forth is the base meaning of darab...You may think this makes no sence based on having a preconcieved notion of the word, but that doesn`t change the facts we have to deal with.

I have refered to the Sunnis and the Shia because they are guilty of creating most of the distortions we are dealing with today by their one verse interpretations or by their quoting out of context or by their linking the Quran with their baggage of external falsehoods.

The Quran is to be read in tarteel (placing things of similarity together) - see 734.

The reference in your post is an example of this as they (the Sunnis) fail to touch on the subject being mentioned anywhere else in the Quran and therefore mislead those that follow their path.

savage_carrot

Good posts bro Layth.

Therefore, just to get this point out of the way, if God told us that a problematic wife was to be strung-up and shot, then I would be the first to support/promote such a law...

This, however, some would think too enthusiastic but I understand the reasoning of course

unknownuser

Peace all

I understand bro Ahmed's argument, but in order to have a sound belief I must refute the other side. And if it cannot be refuted then there must be some truth to it. So please understand that I will ask critical questions in order to gain knowledge.

Sis Samia you said

If this is considered a punishment,; how wouldn't God give the details of which part of the body to beat, with what and/or how many (beats)?

There are many topics in the quran that don't have such details. The salat for one has virtually no detail of how to do it. Does that mean that salat should have a different meaning?

Secondly where in the quraan do individulads apply / excute the punishment?

Is there an example of everything stated in the quran?

Although you had many more points, I'll move on for now for sake of brevity but hopefully the others can be raised later.

Bro Layth you said

When God tells us to do something, then it is not upto us to have a choice in the matter we hear & obey. Therefore, just to get this point out of the way, if God told us that a problematic wife was to be strung-up and shot, then I would be the first to support/promote such a law...

I'm happy to see we are both on the side of Submission over "what feels right". This to me gives your arguments more credibility in my opinion.

Now, back to the subject of nushooz. Nushooz means to rise / go above.

This can be seen clearly in 5811 where people are told to Nushooz from the place of gathering/sitting.

I did not know this was the meaning of nushooz... This puts me back at square one. I understood from bro Ahmed that nishooz was some type of ill-conduct like doing drugs, or abusing children. I verified the verse you added and you are right about the meaning. On a side note, would you kindly add the link of the classical arabic dictionary bro Wakas uploaded a long time ago under the Links Section? I think it would be a good addition to the free-minds website and would help us all not to make misguided conclusions such as what i did. I'll ask bro Wakas what the address is again in the meantime.

This paints a new picture on what bro Ahmed was explaining. Now neshooz is not being attentive or keeping private matters private. This to me is bad but cannot justify hitting ... but again i may be biased by society so let's keep going.

Darab = to put forth (that is the original meaning of the word). The only reason it can sometimes mean hit/strike is because you are putting forth your hand when you strike someone. In such cases you will see that the Quran specifies that which is being hit 812, 850, 4727. Wherewas the verse is 434 does not specify any part being hit (the face, arms, legs, body, etc.) and therefore would fall back to the natural state of the word which is to put forth.

So let me make this perfectly clear in my mind. Does this mean that the word daraba when it means "to hit or strike" must refer to a specific body part? It cannot just refer to a person in general? Because the word in the quran is Adrabuhunna. This hunna would refer back to the wives. So i think that would be that which it refers back to, unless there is something in the grammar i'm missing.

To say Adrab 3anhunna would be wrong grammatically?

Bro Ahmed, I hope you don't decide to leave this thread, because I am confused and i need to sort out everything by hearing both sides. It's probably not just me either. As for the word nishooz, i think this is made clear now. Does this change any interpretation on your part?

Bro Phoenix,

Thanks for the vote of confidence but i can be very illogical at times
To me i submit to the God's Will and not my illogical thoughts that are dressed in "sound logic". So I'm verifying the quran and the different opinions to see which is truer to the verse. God-Willing I can be 100% confident in my belief of this verse soon.

unknownuser

Salam sister BOOST

Ok I will continue to reply to this thread untill you are satisfied with the outcome of your understanding, however I'm currently on holiday with my famil and my internert access is confined to hacking into some not very secure wireless lan, I just drive with the car around and see if I can get in, currently I'm sitting in the car with my son just to have a quick look on the threads I'm involvoed in in 3 boards, FM, FF, and FI

so please bear with me untill I go back home inshallah next Friday

on the other hand Layth argument is nothing new, it is the same as the foriegner argument who lack the Arabic language

I'm sure you know that many Arabic words have more than one meaning and the context alone is the one to decide on the meaning

at the end of the day, I found all those in favour of this flawd understanding failed to give us a sensible understanding to 434 without adding extra words to the words of Allah

when i come back inshallah I will put together a long comment for you

also I don't get what you mean that one side must refute the other?

hmmm I see that I refuted their flawed understanding for the verse and they didn't refute the common understanding of the verse

all they said that it is a sunni concept and that can't be admissable dear sister

please don't fall to that trap of the root thingy, it is a joke to use the root childish method to understand the Quran

there was no such thing called roots when the Quran was revealed

Talk to you soon

Take care and happy new year

Someone

Peace upon all,

Why not experiment both methods?

1- Beat your wife

or

2- Leave your wife alone for some time (maybe the next one if you started your experiment with method 1 ;D)

And see if it leads to a bliss or to hell.

unknownuser

Peace Someone

I don't go by what feels good. I go by the quran so i need to verify which is the proper translation of that verse.

unknownuser

Peace Bro Ahmed

Thank you bro, this is what i need.

Enjoy your vacation, i'll look forward to hearing more of your thoughts when you get back )

Happy New Year to you and your family

unknownuser

Salam sister BOOST

I decided to write a small reply for now, it is about 1031 PM and my family went for a walk so I came to my wireless hot spot and put the following together for you,

First of all, I stated that Layth argument of using another verse that uses a different word but similar letters can?t be admissible, if you use this flawed root method to understand the Quran then you will end up with many non sensible verses, I said this many times but in here most members suffer from a high lever of arrogance that is beyond my ability to tackle so I decided to leave them with what they made up and just dialogue with those Muslims who have Albab

Here is a simple example in how the flawed root method can?t be used to understand the Quran

Allah sets forth an example There is a slave in whom are (several) partners differing with one another, and there is another slave wholly owned by one man. Are the two alike in condition? (All) praise is due to Allah. Nay! most of them do not know.

(29)

-> Can you see the word in red above?, it is ??, it is pronounced ?Salma? and it means ? wholly owned?, sort of peace because the other man is owned by many masters who are fighting for him, the second man however is owned by one master and that is why Allah used the word Salma to express that he is owned by one only and there is no fight for him.

On another verse we read the same exact word but it means Ladder

And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant.

(35)

-> See it in red ? ?, pronounced ?Soloma? and it means ?Ladder?, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the root S L M which mean peace but yet it has the same root, i.e. the roots has no meaning on their own and must be put in a context to make up meaning

Now let?s look at 434 along with 5811 and you will see clearly that if you follow Layth flawed understanding you will end up with a huge contradiction between the two verse

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

(34)

What we can understand from above that ?Nishooz? is something really bad because that was FEARED by the men and Allah is telling the men to do a few things about it, therefore at least from 434 ?Nishooz? is something really bad that should not be done by the wives,

I wonder how come for the wives to RISE UP can be considered something bad?, hmmm, it makes me laugh indeed, it has to be the least ?Something bad?

Now we read in on 5811 that Allah is ordering us to commit ?Nishooz? according to Layth understanding

O you who believe! when it is said to you, Make room in (your) assemblies, then make ample room, Allah will give you ample, and when it is said Rise up, then rise up. Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees; and Allah is Aware of what you do.

(11)

-> See dear sister ? ?, i.e. according to Layth ?and if it is said to you to do something bad?, then ??, i.e. an order from Allah to make commit something bad as well it will be rewarded ? Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees? because they had the knowledge to Yanshizoo, i.e. they knew how to do something bad after they were said to them by other humans to do something bad

Absolute non sense if you ask me, whatever you go with meaning of Anshizoo as to "Rise up" or "to commit something bad", you will end up with a big contradiction between 434 and 5811

I rest my case

Salam

arnoldyasin

nushooz comes from nashaza

to be high, lifted up, rise up, behave ill, be disobedient, ill treat, be rebeliouss, hate, detest, be different, treat unjustly, be unkind, desert, leave the place and taking up an abode which does not take, be cruel and evil companion

Abdul Amman Omar's Quran dictionary, Righab's Quran dictionary, Tay-UlRoos. Lisan Alarab, Lane's Lexicon.

We know you speak Arabic dear AB, and we know you think you need dictionary's. Your Arabic just came right of the air. It just appeared out of nowhere. Yes you learned it at school and in your surroundigs. But maybe your surroundings didn't use all the possibilities of the words? Maybe 20th century Arabic uses differs from 6th Arabic uses and possibilities? Maybe modern day Arabic is as much a hadith as the above mentioned dictionaries? Maybe the above mentioned dictionaries where written centuries ago by people who were much closer to the 6th century Arabic uses? Maybe you prefer the wrong hadith? You are good in Modern Arabic, yes, but is your rejection of seeing the difference between Classic Arabic and Modern not based on rejecting simple scientific truth?

wildguest1956

Should we examine the above citations, we will note that the root verb (idiom) daraba (transitive and intransitive) takes several figurative or allegorical connotations which signify to isolate, to separate, to depart, to distance, to exclude, to move away, etc. When a thing is subjected to such case, that means it is to be extracted, distinguished and set forth as an evident example. The idiom daraba in the land denotes to travel or to depart. With respect to the ear, the verb daraba means to block or to prevent hearing. And in regard to the revelation, daraba means to stop, to halt, to abandon and to take away. Obviously, for the truth and false, daraba means to make both of them evident and to distinguish them from each other; whereas, for veils, daraba connotes to draw them over and to cover the bosom. In the seas or rivers, daraba is to strike a path through the water and set the water aside. But for humiliation and shame, daraba is to signify that both of them are pitched over people; however, for a wall, daraba means to be erected, that is, to indicate partition or separation. In regard to the finger tips, necks, faces and backs, it means to cut, to slash and to strike; whereas, for the rest of citations, it means to impel, to shock, to slap, or to damage so as to precipitate the desired impact which is relevant to each respective situation, action or interaction.

Thus, the general connotations of the root verb daraba in the Qur?anic parlance signify to separate, to distance, to depart, to abandon, and so forth.

Considering the above context and situation, the purpose of reconciliation, the Islamic doctrine of human sanctity and dignity, the right of self determination in Islam, the consensual nature of the nuptial association, and the ability of nuptial partners to gracefully dissolve such association without coercion or intimidation, the denotation of daraba in this citation cannot imply the infliction of injury, pain or disgrace. The most candid construal is to imply separation, departure, partition or seclusion, however.

http//www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/islam/gender/abusulayman_nowifebeating.html

unknownuser

Hmmm

Hello JM

the quote above it total non sense

because indeed daraba means to get two things closer togther

when Allah told Moses to Idrab Al Ard with the staff, it means to get the staff closer to the ground

and whe Allah told Moses to Idrab Al Bahr with the staff, it means to get the staff closer to the water

see, what you are following is total non sese

Salam

unknownuser

nushooz comes from nashaza

to be high, lifted up, rise up, behave ill, be disobedient, ill treat, be rebeliouss, hate, detest, be different, treat unjustly, be unkind, desert, leave the place and taking up an abode which does not take, be cruel and evil companion

Abdul Amman Omar's Quran dictionary, Righab's Quran dictionary, Tay-UlRoos. Lisan Alarab, Lane's Lexicon.

We know you speak Arabic dear AB, and we know you think you need dictionary's. Your Arabic just came right of the air. It just appeared out of nowhere. Yes you learned it at school and in your surroundigs. But maybe your surroundings didn't use all the possibilities of the words? Maybe 20th century Arabic uses differs from 6th Arabic uses and possibilities? Maybe modern day Arabic is as much a hadith as the above mentioned dictionaries? Maybe the above mentioned dictionaries where written centuries ago by people who were much closer to the 6th century Arabic uses? Maybe you prefer the wrong hadith? You are good in Modern Arabic, yes, but is your rejection of seeing the difference between Classic Arabic and Modern not based on rejecting simple scientific truth?

Back again to attacking my language knowledge

hmm, do you see me trying to degrade those english speakers who speaks english which is not my language?

well I will be idiot if I do so

now you also resorting to your old trick of linking my understanding to the hadith, sort of like Layth when he stated that the common understanding is Sunni and that is enough not to follow it, hmmm, fine if you want me sunni, then I'm sunni, now debate me without accusing me of being a sunni because I concede your wrong allegation just to buy my head