Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Peace,
Dear Abrar, please read my article on the scientifc approach to the Afterlife
http//mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/scientific-approach-of-afterlife-by.html
There are scientific theories on it that have a lot of evidence. But most atheist scientists find the concept scary, which is why they neglect it immediately without being objective.
Also the concept of Heaven and Hell is misunderstood, see
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0
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peace thgod -)
i have already commented about the translation u posted without verifying...it is a mistrans! -)
why is it a mistrans?
i dont understand how ur doing good serves god!
We serve God by bringing it to this world. We are spreading God by doing good.
...it (god) also seems to be scheming and plotting..
...how many times do v have the quran talking about it allowing those who disbelieve to thrive in their disbelief...only to seize them when they expected not!
...do u still take god as the quran describes it?
Yes, again, that is part of the description of God. Although I don't think god would be literally scheming and plotting.
perhaps u have issues with the divinity of quran itself...hmmm...cool! -)
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
v were talking about facing almasjidalharam...
but u somehow started to talk about facing the "black pagan cube"...thereby giving the impression that
...either u saw them as the same thing...or related...
...or that u simply wanted to show that u get ur ideas from assumptions rather than the quran...(u are yet to show a single verse which says it is a pagan structure!) -)
I am talking about the black cube called "the holy kaaba." And my argument is that because god cannot possibly be living in a small cubic house in Mecca, "kaaba" and "masjid al haram" and possibly "mecca" are different things in the quran. If they aren't, then the quran cannot be believed.
My understanding of 1736 is that we should use our tools of perception and reasoning to verify our beliefs.
If I can see with my eyes that this font is black, I cannot believe that it is blue.
And if my mind tells me that 2+2=4, I cannot believe that it =5 just because a book says so. -
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit asjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
If I am correct in thinking that "bayt" means "house," then are you saying that God lives in a black cubic structure in mecca?
if not, why is it called "the sacred house?" -
595 O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
597 GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Bayt (edit Masjid to Bayt), to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (edit bracket text (to the Sacred Masjid) removed), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.
This only demonstrates that the translator doesn't know what Ka'bah means and hence was not able to translate it. Are we supposed to revere some stones based on the opinion of those who don't even know what "ka'bah" means?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Abrar,
"The foolish from amongst the people will Say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
Go to any sectarian mosque with anyone here who doesn't believe that we have to face a physical direction to face the god and face somewhere other than where everyone is facing. The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
There is a sign in this. The god's book is not a theoretical book. It gives us empirically verifiable truth. Try it and you will see the true meaning of this passage.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Damon,
Good to see you back )
Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).
I think it is well worth the read.
Interesting work.
I did not support the link he made between the fire of Abraham and the fire of Moses (especially since the fire Abraham was cast in was man-made and it was done at the place where he emigrated from ). Also, I did not support the link he made between the fire of Moses and Mt. Sinai simply because he felt tranquility when he visited the monastary there!
On the other hand, his remark that we should be looking for a mountain that has crumbled/been flattened to find the location where God spoke to Moses is superb (amazing how we all missed something this big especially since everyone knows the story of the mountain and God).
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
You said, "The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
The point is if people were used to east/west/south/north and they are asked to turn west/east/north/south by the God so they have nothing to worry because the God is present in all east/west/north/south directions. It is not the direction which matters, it is in fact the command of the God which really matters because He is present in all directions. The command of the God is the straight path, and please do not ask anyone to prove the reason behind God's command in a mathematical empirical style. I really had a bad time with athiests when I tried to prove The God mathematically.
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
You said, "The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
The point is if people were used to east/west/south/north and they are asked to turn west/east/north/south by the God so they have nothing to worry because the God is present in all east/west/north/south directions. It is not the direction which matters, it is in fact the command of the God which really matters because He is present in all directions. The command of the God is the straight path, and please do not ask anyone to prove the reason behind God's command in a mathematical empirical style. I really had a bad time with athiests when I tried to prove The God mathematically.
Salaams Br. Abrar
Do what is Right; But here is for you another understanding.
Its logical
2142 with respect to 6153 tell you what on earth the STRAIGHT WAY is and it isn?t facing anything but doing certain things.
The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the path which they were on?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to the Way that is straight.
2142???say all for Allah of what we follow and what we do away with .He guideth whom He will to the WAY STRAIGHT.
And the ayah?s 6150-153 give the list of the things for you to do to be on the STRAIGHT WAY.
And 2153 specifically says doing these things is the STRAIGHT WAY.
Verily, this is My STRAIGHT WAY follow it follow not (other) paths they will scatter you about from His (great) path thus doth He command you. that ye may be righteous.
And May God Bless you with the STRAIGHT WAY.
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phoenix1 wrote
why is it a mistrans?the verse says"...yatawaffakum..."
...it is kum/you (plural)...not me! -)
We serve God by bringing it to this world. We are spreading God by doing good.
serve it by brining it to, and spreading it, in the world?
...u perhaps see logic in what u are saying! -)
Yes, again, that is part of the description of God. Although I don't think god would be literally scheming and plotting.
cool! -)
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
?
I am talking about the black cube called "the holy kaaba." And my argument is that because god cannot possibly be living in a small cubic house in Mecca, "kaaba" and "masjid al haram" and possibly "mecca" are different things in the quran. If they aren't, then the quran cannot be believed.
according to the quran....al kaaba is albayt alharam
...there are many who lend assumptions to the words of quran...and fail to produce verses when asked to prove their claims...
...v are unconcerned about them! -)
who told u god "lives" in the kaaba/albayt alharam?
My understanding of 1736 is that we should use our tools of perception and reasoning to verify our beliefs.
If I can see with my eyes that this font is black, I cannot believe that it is blue.
And if my mind tells me that 2+2=4, I cannot believe that it =5 just because a book says so.fair enough...but u are talking about maths and physical senses...
...how will u apply it to the text...
...there are many who will tell u a lot of stuff based on simply assumptions...and their whims...
...like the kaaba for example...
...i gave verses which show the significance of the kaaba...can u show me a verse which shows it is a pagan structure? -)
not a snub...but just curious...what do u think about 1736 and the mistrans verse u pasted? should u have verified? -)
If I am correct in thinking that "bayt" means "house," then are you saying that God lives in a black cubic structure in mecca?
i dont understand the logic there...why does the word "bayt" mean god should live in it? -)
if not, why is it called "the sacred house?"
why...what's "wrong" with albayt alharam? -)
to avoid confusion...are u challenging whether god said that (to face almasjidalharam)...or are u disputing almasjidalharam's being a physical strcuture? -)
peace phoenix1! -)
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The passage clearly says "wherever you may be". This is completely ignored by those who advocate Mecca or any physical "temple" to face. Can someone tell us how to face a physical place wherever we are?
Facing Restricted Temple (a physical place) like washing to purify oneself is symbolic as in dry absolution or when direction uncertain, in outer space, etc. most important being the spiritual intent to obey God?
2177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and he honours the affirmation, and he contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.It is immaterial where the court is located or if there is even a physical building.
True and it is ?material? if attacked to fight and kill them in court! 2191
Sanctuary is symbolic of "God's House? and first dedicated as such.
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take the site of Abraham in affirmation. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."
2126 And Abraham said "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations for the Sanctuary with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
Peace
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peace thegod -)
the verse says"...yatawaffakum..."
...it is kum/you (plural)...not me! -)
cool. thanks for clarifying that. I'll have to think about that.
serve it by brining it to, and spreading it, in the world?
...u perhaps see logic in what u are saying! -)
Yes, as I see it, we are God's servants. We are making this world more "godly" by doing good things. that's what I meant.
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
?
I don't think God wrote or dictated the quran. I do think that the truth is from god. So if the quran is true, then it would be from god. What I don't know is whether the quran is true or not.
who told u god "lives" in the kaaba/albayt alharam?
Who's house is it, then?
I understand that kaaba (does kaaba mean "base?" is bayt al haram, but that doesn't mean the quran is talking about a cubic shrine in Mecca. That is an assumption based on sectarian beliefs.fair enough...but u are talking about maths and physical senses...
...how will u apply it to the text...
...there are many who will tell u a lot of stuff based on simply assumptions...and their whims...
...like the kaaba for example...
...i gave verses which show the significance of the kaaba...can u show me a verse which shows it is a pagan structure? -)
not a snub...but just curious...what do u think about 1736 and the mistrans verse u pasted? should u have verified? -)
I just gave you examples. It's not meant for maths or physics classes only. If I read something in the quran, and I cannot verify it, then there are two possibilities
- the quran doesn't say that.
- the quran is false.
The quran's word is not categorical or incontrovertible. It is open to examination and criticism. Providing verses for something isn't the same as providing proof. Unless you can prove that those verses are true.
There is no verse that says "kaaba is a pagan structure" because the kaaba is not a structure at all.
to avoid confusion...are u challenging whether god said that (to face almasjidalharam)...or are u disputing almasjidalharam's being a physical strcuture? -)
both! -)
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Ka'aba is just a point towards which all believers turn when we pray, nobody worships the stone, the city, those people there or any mosques, we just turn there because we obey The God Almighty.
If you ask a Christian if they worship the cross they will say the same thing. If you ask a Buddhist if they worship a statue of Buddah they will give you similar answer. They will all say "nobody worships those things". They also all think that they are obeying the god when they turn towards those things. If you take the stones of the so-called Ka'bah and use them to build a cross on the same spot instead of a cube or if you take some crosses and put them together to make a cube on the same spot, what difference would it make? Nothing.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun de plume,
Facing Restricted Temple (a physical place) like washing to purify oneself is symbolic as in dry absolution or when direction uncertain, in outer space, etc. most important being the spiritual intent to obey God?
"Obeying the god" is the same thing everyone who venerates some stones or a cross claim. If you are interested in obeying the god and you really believe that the god ordered you to face some temple WHEREVER you are, then please tell us how you would do that. Are you facing this temple now as you are looking at the computer screen (one of those WHEREVER locations). Are you doing it in bed? Are you doing it while driving? or are you not obeying the god?
Read 2177 and tell me where in it is evidence that the god is asking us to face a physical object?
2177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and he honours the affirmation, and he contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.True and it is ?material? if attacked to fight and kill them in court! 2191
People fight and kill in the justice system all the time and the physical building has nothing to do with it. Why do you assume that the god is primarily concerned with the superficial physical building, while anyone with any intelligence is concerned about the deeper function of the court?
Sanctuary is symbolic of "God's House? and first dedicated as such.
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take the site of Abraham in affirmation. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."
How is the stone cube a model for people? Are we all supposed to live in a cube with no windows? How is it a sanctuary? How can a small room sized cube with three pillars inside it, one eleveted door and no windows provide sanctuary for the people?
2126 And Abraham said "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations for the Sanctuary with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
2127 actually says "raising the foundation "from" (Arabic "min" the sanctuary" not "for" (Arabic"li" the sanctuary. How can you raise the foundations from the house? Is it an upside down house? Think about it logically and see how the word "foundations" is used in other places and you will see.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Abrar,
You said, "The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
The point is if people were used to east/west/south/north and they are asked to turn west/east/north/south by the God so they have nothing to worry because the God is present in all east/west/north/south directions. It is not the direction which matters, it is in fact the command of the God which really matters because He is present in all directions. The command of the God is the straight path, and please do not ask anyone to prove the reason behind God's command in a mathematical empirical style. I really had a bad time with athiests when I tried to prove The God mathematically.
There is nothing in the passage about people asking anyone to turn to the west/east/north/south. The passage is clear. All that the foolish people are saying is this ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??
Let's say you decide tomorrow that a physical direction is not important and that the god is everywhere. You then show up at a gathering with some of the people here who advocate facing Mecca and you pray facing some random direction and not the direction that you previously faced with them (regardless of where they face) then they will surely ask you ?What has turned you away from the focal point that you were on??
You will not answer "It is because I face now Jerusalem instead of Mecca".
You will answer "The god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west), He guides whom he wills to the straight path (a non-physical direction)".
This empirically verifiable scenario (i.e., you can try it yourself) will always happen regardless of whether people are facing Mecca, Jerusalem, or the sun. Who is the foolish and who is the guided?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
I never said anywhere that Qibla is holy due to some wierd reason. The God is present in every direction and you do not have to worry which direction. The Purpose of Qibla is misunderstood, which is unity and not logic through randomness. This is a fact that before there was a Qibla and then it was changed towards the Sacred mosque.
Chapter 2
- And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you were used to, except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
- We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple;....."
The first Qibla was appointed by the God Himself and it was a physical direction or else the people would not have worried about physical directions. The Second Qibla was also appointed by the God, so foolish people wanted to know the logic about the physical direction of the second Qibla
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Peace Abrar,
I never said anywhere that Qibla is holy due to some wierd reason. The God is present in every direction and you do not have to worry which direction.
If you really don't worry about which direction then don't pray in the direction of Mecca or any physical town or object (it is actually a false direction because in truth the earth is spherical and you are facing random regions in outer space).
The Purpose of Qibla is misunderstood, which is unity and not logic through randomness. This is a fact that before there was a Qibla and then it was changed towards the Sacred mosque.
Chapter 2
143. And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you were used to, except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
144. We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple;....."What you are saying demonstrates exactly how the purpose of the focal point is misunderstood. Where does it say in 2143-144 that the purpose is unity? Clearly it doesn't matter if everyone was united on "turning on their heels" while one person was divided from the rest and decided to follow the messenger. So unity is irrelevant and in this case, the one person who was divided from the rest is better.
The first Qibla was appointed by the God Himself and it was a physical direction or else the people would not have worried about physical directions. The Second Qibla was also appointed by the God, so foolish people wanted to know the logic about the physical direction of the second Qibla
If you invite me to your house and you know that I used to pray in the same supposed direction as you (whether it is Mecca, Jerusalem, or any other city or object) and then you see that I don't worry anymore about praying in the same direction as you and everyone else, you or any of your guests will certainly ask me something similar to ?What has turned you away from the focal point that you were on??
Anyone who assumes that the god commanded us to face a certain physical direction will naturally ask that question. The only way you will not ask me is if you didn't think that a physical direction is a big deal.
My answer will always be the same "the god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west), he guides whom he wills to a straight path (our direction should be the straight path, which is a non-physical direction).
It is an indisputable fact that facing Mecca or any specific physical direction is irrelevant to being on the straight path. On the other hand, facing the institution/implementation of obeying the restriction, which is the truth from our lord (i.e., insitutionalizing/implementing the obedience of the restrictions that the god placed on us) will result in us being on the straight path. This is indisputable truth that you and everyone here knows as you know your own children. On the other hand, you certainly don't know the Ka'ba as you know your own children.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace and greetings,
Dear warner,
The God is formless meaning He is out of the context of imagination, space and time and physical matter. The God is established on the great Throne which encompasses the seven heavens and the earth. The God is the Lord of the great throne. He directs the affairs of the heavens and the earth which ascend to him in a day whose length is a thousand years in our time of counting. The God is present everywhere, He is the all seeing , the all hearing. The God is nearer to us than our juglur vien. His presence is in every direction. The God is the Hidden, The Manifest, He is the Light(illuminator) of the Heavens and the earth. The throne is at the end of the physical universe. It is the edge of the Universe. According to Albert Einstien time, space and matter disappear beyond the edge of the universe.
Is the universe finite or infinite?
"The observable universe is finite," Sweitzer said, which is to say that it had boundaries -- physical limits. Sort of. "It's a boundary to the events we can see directly, but not a boundary in the sense that New York State has a boundary."
And in an expanding universe, this boundary is constantly moving, as is everything within it. Cosmologists typically invoke a balloon with spots on its surface, representing galaxies, to explain the expanding universe. As the balloon is inflated, the spots grow farther apart. If you stood within one of these spots, you'd see all the others moving away from you, and the most distant spots would move appear to move the fastest.
Sweitzer goes on to say that the observable universe is probably part of a much larger universe, "which could be finite or infinite. Any global statements about the universe, such as overall extent, are speculative because they require extrapolating local mathematical theories and measurements beyond the observable universe."
So if the observable universe is finite, like the space occupied by a car or a house is finite, then there must be a brick wall or something up there, holding it all together. Right?
Does the observable universe have an edge?
No, said Livio.
Argh. First you guys tell us the universe is expanding. Then you say it is finite. Now you say it has no edge! We need a visual here.
Livio is up to the task. He dredges up the old expanding balloon as his prop. "An ant traveling on the surface of a balloon will never reach an edge," Livio explains. "In the worst case it will return to its starting point."
And so too do we return. It is now a few moments later in the same year, 2001, heart of the same Information Age, well after the telescope was invented, and we still don't know how big the big house is nor what, if anything, lies beyond.
But now, perhaps we understand what we don't know a little better.
Astronomers reach the 'edge' of UniverseSDF Subaru
The SDF looks through uncluttered space
By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse
Looking at a region of space where galaxies are scattered like coloured jewels, astronomers have obtained their most penetrating view of the cosmos yet.
The Subaru Deep Field (SDF) image, produced by the Japanese Subaru Telescope in Hawaii, goes almost to the edge of the observable Universe.
It was obtained by looking into space in a direction out towards our galaxy's north pole, a view that is relatively uncluttered with local stars and nearby galaxies.
The image shows large elliptical galaxies, faint galaxies of intense blue, and puzzling red objects thought to be youthful star systems gorged with dust.
Galactic light Obtaining the SDF was one of the first tasks for the Subaru Telescope after it was commissioned in 1998. Its giant 8.2-metre (27-foot) mirror is probably the most accurate in the world. Astronomers have been delighted with the clarity of its images so far.
Subaru
The Subaru Telescope is an exceptional piece of engineeringThe SDF is a region about a degree in size, well away from the plane of our galaxy and very suitable for study from Hawaii as it passes almost overhead most nights.
Investigation of the SDF has revealed that the galaxies detected in the image, if spread throughout the cosmos, would account for more than 90% of all the galactic light in the Universe.
This is a different result from that obtained by the other well-known deep image of the Universe, the Hubble Deep Field (HDF).
The objects seen in the HDF, if typical of the Universe, would account for less than 90% of the Universe's light. The higher figure obtained by the SDF suggests that it is the deeper view of the cosmos.
Background light
The SDF shows some of the faintest galaxies ever observed, technically described as fainter than magnitude 24.5.Some have delicate traces of structure, suggesting they are advanced spiral galaxies. This is puzzling since they are being seen soon after galaxies first formed. Some galaxies are clearly interacting with one another, and others are the bluest and the reddest objects ever detected in space.
Researchers used models of galaxy evolution to predict how many faint galaxies would be missed in other deep images of the sky. They discovered that the galaxies they detected in the SDF image accounted for more than 90% of the total near-infrared light from all the galaxies in the Universe along this line of sight.
It is now believed that Subaru is seeing almost to the edge of the observable Universe and that there is very little extra light to be detected from even fainter galaxies.
However, although the Subaru observations can account for almost all of the light emitted by galaxies in the Universe, measurements from satellites show that the total amount of background light scattered through the cosmos is three times larger.
It is becoming clear, researchers say, that there is a great deal of light in the Universe that cannot have come from normal galaxies and for which, as yet, we have no adequate explanation.
The scientists say that resolving this discrepancy is an important task for astronomy.
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peace warner,
God is everywhere.
But, to my knowledge, the quran does not imply that we should turn toward a certain direction.he God is formless meaning He is out of the context of imagination, space and time and physical matter.
Abrar, where did you get that from? peace
