Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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phoenix1 wrote
why is it a mistrans?the verse says"...yatawaffakum..."
...it is kum/you (plural)...not me! -)
We serve God by bringing it to this world. We are spreading God by doing good.
serve it by brining it to, and spreading it, in the world?
...u perhaps see logic in what u are saying! -)
Yes, again, that is part of the description of God. Although I don't think god would be literally scheming and plotting.
cool! -)
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
?
I am talking about the black cube called "the holy kaaba." And my argument is that because god cannot possibly be living in a small cubic house in Mecca, "kaaba" and "masjid al haram" and possibly "mecca" are different things in the quran. If they aren't, then the quran cannot be believed.
according to the quran....al kaaba is albayt alharam
...there are many who lend assumptions to the words of quran...and fail to produce verses when asked to prove their claims...
...v are unconcerned about them! -)
who told u god "lives" in the kaaba/albayt alharam?
My understanding of 1736 is that we should use our tools of perception and reasoning to verify our beliefs.
If I can see with my eyes that this font is black, I cannot believe that it is blue.
And if my mind tells me that 2+2=4, I cannot believe that it =5 just because a book says so.fair enough...but u are talking about maths and physical senses...
...how will u apply it to the text...
...there are many who will tell u a lot of stuff based on simply assumptions...and their whims...
...like the kaaba for example...
...i gave verses which show the significance of the kaaba...can u show me a verse which shows it is a pagan structure? -)
not a snub...but just curious...what do u think about 1736 and the mistrans verse u pasted? should u have verified? -)
If I am correct in thinking that "bayt" means "house," then are you saying that God lives in a black cubic structure in mecca?
i dont understand the logic there...why does the word "bayt" mean god should live in it? -)
if not, why is it called "the sacred house?"
why...what's "wrong" with albayt alharam? -)
to avoid confusion...are u challenging whether god said that (to face almasjidalharam)...or are u disputing almasjidalharam's being a physical strcuture? -)
peace phoenix1! -)
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The passage clearly says "wherever you may be". This is completely ignored by those who advocate Mecca or any physical "temple" to face. Can someone tell us how to face a physical place wherever we are?
Facing Restricted Temple (a physical place) like washing to purify oneself is symbolic as in dry absolution or when direction uncertain, in outer space, etc. most important being the spiritual intent to obey God?
2177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and he honours the affirmation, and he contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.It is immaterial where the court is located or if there is even a physical building.
True and it is ?material? if attacked to fight and kill them in court! 2191
Sanctuary is symbolic of "God's House? and first dedicated as such.
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take the site of Abraham in affirmation. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."
2126 And Abraham said "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations for the Sanctuary with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
Peace
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peace thegod -)
the verse says"...yatawaffakum..."
...it is kum/you (plural)...not me! -)
cool. thanks for clarifying that. I'll have to think about that.
serve it by brining it to, and spreading it, in the world?
...u perhaps see logic in what u are saying! -)
Yes, as I see it, we are God's servants. We are making this world more "godly" by doing good things. that's what I meant.
yes I do. But there are different variations on "divinity."
?
I don't think God wrote or dictated the quran. I do think that the truth is from god. So if the quran is true, then it would be from god. What I don't know is whether the quran is true or not.
who told u god "lives" in the kaaba/albayt alharam?
Who's house is it, then?
I understand that kaaba (does kaaba mean "base?" is bayt al haram, but that doesn't mean the quran is talking about a cubic shrine in Mecca. That is an assumption based on sectarian beliefs.fair enough...but u are talking about maths and physical senses...
...how will u apply it to the text...
...there are many who will tell u a lot of stuff based on simply assumptions...and their whims...
...like the kaaba for example...
...i gave verses which show the significance of the kaaba...can u show me a verse which shows it is a pagan structure? -)
not a snub...but just curious...what do u think about 1736 and the mistrans verse u pasted? should u have verified? -)
I just gave you examples. It's not meant for maths or physics classes only. If I read something in the quran, and I cannot verify it, then there are two possibilities
- the quran doesn't say that.
- the quran is false.
The quran's word is not categorical or incontrovertible. It is open to examination and criticism. Providing verses for something isn't the same as providing proof. Unless you can prove that those verses are true.
There is no verse that says "kaaba is a pagan structure" because the kaaba is not a structure at all.
to avoid confusion...are u challenging whether god said that (to face almasjidalharam)...or are u disputing almasjidalharam's being a physical strcuture? -)
both! -)
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Ka'aba is just a point towards which all believers turn when we pray, nobody worships the stone, the city, those people there or any mosques, we just turn there because we obey The God Almighty.
If you ask a Christian if they worship the cross they will say the same thing. If you ask a Buddhist if they worship a statue of Buddah they will give you similar answer. They will all say "nobody worships those things". They also all think that they are obeying the god when they turn towards those things. If you take the stones of the so-called Ka'bah and use them to build a cross on the same spot instead of a cube or if you take some crosses and put them together to make a cube on the same spot, what difference would it make? Nothing.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun de plume,
Facing Restricted Temple (a physical place) like washing to purify oneself is symbolic as in dry absolution or when direction uncertain, in outer space, etc. most important being the spiritual intent to obey God?
"Obeying the god" is the same thing everyone who venerates some stones or a cross claim. If you are interested in obeying the god and you really believe that the god ordered you to face some temple WHEREVER you are, then please tell us how you would do that. Are you facing this temple now as you are looking at the computer screen (one of those WHEREVER locations). Are you doing it in bed? Are you doing it while driving? or are you not obeying the god?
Read 2177 and tell me where in it is evidence that the god is asking us to face a physical object?
2177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and he honours the affirmation, and he contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.True and it is ?material? if attacked to fight and kill them in court! 2191
People fight and kill in the justice system all the time and the physical building has nothing to do with it. Why do you assume that the god is primarily concerned with the superficial physical building, while anyone with any intelligence is concerned about the deeper function of the court?
Sanctuary is symbolic of "God's House? and first dedicated as such.
2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take the site of Abraham in affirmation. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."
How is the stone cube a model for people? Are we all supposed to live in a cube with no windows? How is it a sanctuary? How can a small room sized cube with three pillars inside it, one eleveted door and no windows provide sanctuary for the people?
2126 And Abraham said "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations for the Sanctuary with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
2127 actually says "raising the foundation "from" (Arabic "min" the sanctuary" not "for" (Arabic"li" the sanctuary. How can you raise the foundations from the house? Is it an upside down house? Think about it logically and see how the word "foundations" is used in other places and you will see.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Abrar,
You said, "The people there will surely ask you ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??.
The point is if people were used to east/west/south/north and they are asked to turn west/east/north/south by the God so they have nothing to worry because the God is present in all east/west/north/south directions. It is not the direction which matters, it is in fact the command of the God which really matters because He is present in all directions. The command of the God is the straight path, and please do not ask anyone to prove the reason behind God's command in a mathematical empirical style. I really had a bad time with athiests when I tried to prove The God mathematically.
There is nothing in the passage about people asking anyone to turn to the west/east/north/south. The passage is clear. All that the foolish people are saying is this ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??
Let's say you decide tomorrow that a physical direction is not important and that the god is everywhere. You then show up at a gathering with some of the people here who advocate facing Mecca and you pray facing some random direction and not the direction that you previously faced with them (regardless of where they face) then they will surely ask you ?What has turned you away from the focal point that you were on??
You will not answer "It is because I face now Jerusalem instead of Mecca".
You will answer "The god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west), He guides whom he wills to the straight path (a non-physical direction)".
This empirically verifiable scenario (i.e., you can try it yourself) will always happen regardless of whether people are facing Mecca, Jerusalem, or the sun. Who is the foolish and who is the guided?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
I never said anywhere that Qibla is holy due to some wierd reason. The God is present in every direction and you do not have to worry which direction. The Purpose of Qibla is misunderstood, which is unity and not logic through randomness. This is a fact that before there was a Qibla and then it was changed towards the Sacred mosque.
Chapter 2
- And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you were used to, except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
- We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple;....."
The first Qibla was appointed by the God Himself and it was a physical direction or else the people would not have worried about physical directions. The Second Qibla was also appointed by the God, so foolish people wanted to know the logic about the physical direction of the second Qibla
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Peace Abrar,
I never said anywhere that Qibla is holy due to some wierd reason. The God is present in every direction and you do not have to worry which direction.
If you really don't worry about which direction then don't pray in the direction of Mecca or any physical town or object (it is actually a false direction because in truth the earth is spherical and you are facing random regions in outer space).
The Purpose of Qibla is misunderstood, which is unity and not logic through randomness. This is a fact that before there was a Qibla and then it was changed towards the Sacred mosque.
Chapter 2
143. And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you were used to, except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
144. We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple;....."What you are saying demonstrates exactly how the purpose of the focal point is misunderstood. Where does it say in 2143-144 that the purpose is unity? Clearly it doesn't matter if everyone was united on "turning on their heels" while one person was divided from the rest and decided to follow the messenger. So unity is irrelevant and in this case, the one person who was divided from the rest is better.
The first Qibla was appointed by the God Himself and it was a physical direction or else the people would not have worried about physical directions. The Second Qibla was also appointed by the God, so foolish people wanted to know the logic about the physical direction of the second Qibla
If you invite me to your house and you know that I used to pray in the same supposed direction as you (whether it is Mecca, Jerusalem, or any other city or object) and then you see that I don't worry anymore about praying in the same direction as you and everyone else, you or any of your guests will certainly ask me something similar to ?What has turned you away from the focal point that you were on??
Anyone who assumes that the god commanded us to face a certain physical direction will naturally ask that question. The only way you will not ask me is if you didn't think that a physical direction is a big deal.
My answer will always be the same "the god is everywhere (to the god belongs the east and the west), he guides whom he wills to a straight path (our direction should be the straight path, which is a non-physical direction).
It is an indisputable fact that facing Mecca or any specific physical direction is irrelevant to being on the straight path. On the other hand, facing the institution/implementation of obeying the restriction, which is the truth from our lord (i.e., insitutionalizing/implementing the obedience of the restrictions that the god placed on us) will result in us being on the straight path. This is indisputable truth that you and everyone here knows as you know your own children. On the other hand, you certainly don't know the Ka'ba as you know your own children.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace and greetings,
Dear warner,
The God is formless meaning He is out of the context of imagination, space and time and physical matter. The God is established on the great Throne which encompasses the seven heavens and the earth. The God is the Lord of the great throne. He directs the affairs of the heavens and the earth which ascend to him in a day whose length is a thousand years in our time of counting. The God is present everywhere, He is the all seeing , the all hearing. The God is nearer to us than our juglur vien. His presence is in every direction. The God is the Hidden, The Manifest, He is the Light(illuminator) of the Heavens and the earth. The throne is at the end of the physical universe. It is the edge of the Universe. According to Albert Einstien time, space and matter disappear beyond the edge of the universe.
Is the universe finite or infinite?
"The observable universe is finite," Sweitzer said, which is to say that it had boundaries -- physical limits. Sort of. "It's a boundary to the events we can see directly, but not a boundary in the sense that New York State has a boundary."
And in an expanding universe, this boundary is constantly moving, as is everything within it. Cosmologists typically invoke a balloon with spots on its surface, representing galaxies, to explain the expanding universe. As the balloon is inflated, the spots grow farther apart. If you stood within one of these spots, you'd see all the others moving away from you, and the most distant spots would move appear to move the fastest.
Sweitzer goes on to say that the observable universe is probably part of a much larger universe, "which could be finite or infinite. Any global statements about the universe, such as overall extent, are speculative because they require extrapolating local mathematical theories and measurements beyond the observable universe."
So if the observable universe is finite, like the space occupied by a car or a house is finite, then there must be a brick wall or something up there, holding it all together. Right?
Does the observable universe have an edge?
No, said Livio.
Argh. First you guys tell us the universe is expanding. Then you say it is finite. Now you say it has no edge! We need a visual here.
Livio is up to the task. He dredges up the old expanding balloon as his prop. "An ant traveling on the surface of a balloon will never reach an edge," Livio explains. "In the worst case it will return to its starting point."
And so too do we return. It is now a few moments later in the same year, 2001, heart of the same Information Age, well after the telescope was invented, and we still don't know how big the big house is nor what, if anything, lies beyond.
But now, perhaps we understand what we don't know a little better.
Astronomers reach the 'edge' of UniverseSDF Subaru
The SDF looks through uncluttered space
By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse
Looking at a region of space where galaxies are scattered like coloured jewels, astronomers have obtained their most penetrating view of the cosmos yet.
The Subaru Deep Field (SDF) image, produced by the Japanese Subaru Telescope in Hawaii, goes almost to the edge of the observable Universe.
It was obtained by looking into space in a direction out towards our galaxy's north pole, a view that is relatively uncluttered with local stars and nearby galaxies.
The image shows large elliptical galaxies, faint galaxies of intense blue, and puzzling red objects thought to be youthful star systems gorged with dust.
Galactic light Obtaining the SDF was one of the first tasks for the Subaru Telescope after it was commissioned in 1998. Its giant 8.2-metre (27-foot) mirror is probably the most accurate in the world. Astronomers have been delighted with the clarity of its images so far.
Subaru
The Subaru Telescope is an exceptional piece of engineeringThe SDF is a region about a degree in size, well away from the plane of our galaxy and very suitable for study from Hawaii as it passes almost overhead most nights.
Investigation of the SDF has revealed that the galaxies detected in the image, if spread throughout the cosmos, would account for more than 90% of all the galactic light in the Universe.
This is a different result from that obtained by the other well-known deep image of the Universe, the Hubble Deep Field (HDF).
The objects seen in the HDF, if typical of the Universe, would account for less than 90% of the Universe's light. The higher figure obtained by the SDF suggests that it is the deeper view of the cosmos.
Background light
The SDF shows some of the faintest galaxies ever observed, technically described as fainter than magnitude 24.5.Some have delicate traces of structure, suggesting they are advanced spiral galaxies. This is puzzling since they are being seen soon after galaxies first formed. Some galaxies are clearly interacting with one another, and others are the bluest and the reddest objects ever detected in space.
Researchers used models of galaxy evolution to predict how many faint galaxies would be missed in other deep images of the sky. They discovered that the galaxies they detected in the SDF image accounted for more than 90% of the total near-infrared light from all the galaxies in the Universe along this line of sight.
It is now believed that Subaru is seeing almost to the edge of the observable Universe and that there is very little extra light to be detected from even fainter galaxies.
However, although the Subaru observations can account for almost all of the light emitted by galaxies in the Universe, measurements from satellites show that the total amount of background light scattered through the cosmos is three times larger.
It is becoming clear, researchers say, that there is a great deal of light in the Universe that cannot have come from normal galaxies and for which, as yet, we have no adequate explanation.
The scientists say that resolving this discrepancy is an important task for astronomy.
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peace warner,
God is everywhere.
But, to my knowledge, the quran does not imply that we should turn toward a certain direction.he God is formless meaning He is out of the context of imagination, space and time and physical matter.
Abrar, where did you get that from? peace
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phoenix1 wrote
cool. thanks for clarifying that. I'll have to think about that.no need for thanks...still...anytime! -)
Yes, as I see it, we are God's servants. We are making this world more "godly" by doing good things. that's what I meant.
so how does that serve god? -)
does the god need u to make the world godly? -)
I don't think God wrote or dictated the quran.
then who wrote or dictated the quran? -)
I do think that the truth is from god.
what do u mean by "the truth is from god"? -)
where does god live and how does he send this truth? -)
So if the quran is true, then it would be from god.
do u know everything that exists?
do u know the truth of all things?
if yes...then u should know whether or not quran is not true...
if no...then how will ur limited vision decide the entirety of a matter? -)
What I don't know is whether the quran is true or not.
so again...do u know what truth is...that u may judge quran by it? -)
Who's house is it, then?
whose masjid is almasjid alharam?
I understand that kaaba (does kaaba mean "base?"
from what i have gathered, a cube is called "mukaab"...
al kaaba is roughly a cubic structure...a cuboid...and i would think "al kaaba" is "the cube"...or perhaps more likely "the cuboid"! -)
is bayt al haram,
yes...this physical structure is called albayt alharam! -)
but that doesn't mean the quran is talking about a cubic shrine in Mecca.
why does it not mean?
That is an assumption based on sectarian beliefs.
that is an assumption based on assumptions....which u have to prove! -)
anybody can keep talking...based on assumptions...but at some point there has to be some evidence...
...i have talked with peepz about albayt being a physical structure....and they would forward their assumptions...but when i would ask them to support those assumptions with the quran...all i would get were more assumptions and false analogies...
...i hope u wont go the same way! -)
traditionalists believe moses and muhammad are prophets of god...so is this belief based on traditionalist beliefs?
traditionalists refuse that christ was killed on the cross...so is this belief based on traditionalist beliefs?
...indeed not...these are perfectly quranic beliefs...
likewise that the kaaba is a physical structure is a perfectly quranic belief!
...just because u or somebody else is averse to it doesnt mean it is not! -)
if u can prove that it is based on traditions and not quran...and refute it using the quran (not assumptions and false analogies)...i invite u to do so! -)
I just gave you examples. It's not meant for maths or physics classes only. If I read something in the quran, and I cannot verify it, then there are two possibilities
- the quran doesn't say that.
- the quran is false.
ok...how do u verify whether or not christ was killed on the cross? -)
The quran's word is not categorical or incontrovertible.It is open to examination and criticism.
indeed examine it all u want and can...
...but if v are to dispute the authenticity of the text..then it is futile to seek an understanding based on the quran! -)
Providing verses for something isn't the same as providing proof. Unless you can prove that those verses are true.
cool...but proving quran to be "the truth" is not my intention here...i wrongly assumed v agree that the verses are from god and all that remains is the interpretation thereof!
There is no verse that says "kaaba is a pagan structure"
because the quran is explicit about its significance...so it has nothing to do with pagans! -)
because the kaaba is not a structure at all.
then what is the kaaba? -)
both! -)
the first contention is perhaps unlikely to be helped at the moment....
as for the second
51 O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.
52 O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour fear Allah for Allah is strict in punishment.
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
the verses talk about the physical/material things...if u can justify why the masjid and the bayt are not physical but abstract....do so...
...but i am not interested in assumptions...rather what the quran says! -)
so bring forth ur understanding based on quran! -)
peace phoenix1! -)
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Phoenix1,
I said that the God cannot be defined by any form whether physical, imaginary, time space or any other realm you can think of. No vision can reach the God but every vision is within the reach of the God.
Chapter 6 verse 103
"The eyesight cannot reach Him, yet He can reach all eyesight; and He is the Subtle, the Expert.'
Chapter 7
"And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do."
Chapter 112, verse 4
?And there is none comaprable to Him.?
Chapter 42 verse 11
"Initiator of the heavens and the Earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing like unto Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer."
Chapter 30 verse 27
"And He is the One who initiates the creation, then He repeats it, and this is easy for Him. And to Him is the highest example in the heavens and the Earth. And He is the Noble, the Wise."
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Peace,
Peace Dear Brothers,
Still I did not see a verse which says that God is everywhere.
Can you please quote a verse which says that God is everywhere.Surat # 10 Yunis Ayah # 61
(61
In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Qur'an,- and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing,- We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record.
Translation from
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html -
Peace all,
What I cannot understand is why some readers keep discussing "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" and "God being everywhere" when the thread is about "mecca" and "kaaba". "Mecca" and "kaaba" as per al-qur'aan have NOTHING to do with "qibla" and "almasjid alharam"...... and "bayt alharam" is NOT synonymous with "almasjid alharam". It would be great if readers can keep focused on the topics of this thread as that will eliminate some chaos and make the discussion more orderly. Maybe someone can start a separate thread about "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" instead of mixing them in this thread.
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Peace Tanveer,
Peace all,
What I cannot understand is why some readers keep discussing "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" and "God being everywhere" when the thread is about "mecca" and "kaaba". "Mecca" and "kaaba" as per al-qur'aan have NOTHING to do with "qibla" and "almasjid alharam"...... and "bayt alharam" is NOT synonymous with "almasjid alharam". It would be great if readers can keep focused on the topics of this thread as that will eliminate some chaos and make the discussion more orderly. Maybe someone can start a separate thread about "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" instead of mixing them in this thread.I did not follow this thread from the beginning. I only saw the last post of Warner and thought of responding to it. I know that you are not addressing your post to me in particular but you are right.
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Peace Taj
Thank you for the verse.
But this verse does not say that God is everywhere.
Peace Taj
Mecca , Masjidul Haram , Kaaba and Quibla are inter related either through the Quraan or todays religious practices of 99% of muslims. Quraan says the Qibla is towards the sacred mosque and some take it to mean the mosque in Mecca.
I do not see the reason for your objection, why these subjects should not be discussed together.
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tanveer wrote
What I cannot understand is why some readers keep discussing "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" and "God being everywhere" when the thread is about "mecca" and "kaaba".this thread is about facing a particular direction or a physical structure...
...and the closest any verse comes to this is the 1 talking about "almasjid alharam"! -)
and about quran saying god is everywhere...among other things...
...so things are under control...more or less! -)
read the first 2 posts of phoenix1 to get a better idea of what the thread is about! -)
"Mecca" and "kaaba" as per al-qur'aan have NOTHING to do with "qibla" and "almasjid alharam"......
ur opinion has been noted! -)
and "bayt alharam" is NOT synonymous with "almasjid alharam". It would be great if readers can keep focused on the topics of this thread as that will eliminate some chaos and make the discussion more orderly. Maybe someone can start a separate thread about "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" instead of mixing them in this thread
this thread was started by phoenix1 to discuss what he wants! -)
....if u want something else discussed..u can start the proposed new thread! -)