What is deen according to your understanding? Can we implement deen?

Someone

Peace all,

6835

From this verse, we can see how "al-muslimeen" are contrasted with "al-moujrimeen"; this is to correct the end of my previous post as "moujrim" is referring to a criminal, opposed to ?muslim? meaning a peacemaker.

Now to your question Khyaletanzin ?if deen is debt then does it mean that debt cannot be taken forcibly??; Surely, in our social life, we are in debt to some and lending to others all the time; ?madina? coming from to same root as ?deen? refers to a place where everyone is indebted all the time for commodities, security, healthcare, education? this is the reason for money and thus work, taxes.. the economic system. If one doesn?t want to be indebted for such things, one can retreat from civilization and live a more simple life.

Even then, as we are some social creature, we have to live in a community. And even in the simplest community, each member has his own role to play, be it hunting, cooking, looking for water, defending the community?. This is to say that ultimately, nothing is free, and if you owe something to someone, then he has all the rights to claim it or its counterpart back from you, provided that proof is presented.

Having said that, I think that your question is more referring to the spiritual debt, or ?the debt? (ad-deen) as in the scripture, now things are different.

The all-giving creator provided for us everything even before we are able to recognize him as the giver, but also gave us the possibility to choose to payback or not in our lifetime. With all his might, he is giving us time to decide freely, then how can anyone else claim the right to force us payback our due to him instead of the creator?

--

khyaletanzim

@ someone and All

My simple question was what is Deen and why it is said that "No force in Deen". What is the reason or intention of God for combining these two words Deen and Force in this sentence? My intention was that one should explain keeping in mind what is said but it seems that everyone is telling me his understanding of Deen and disregarding the actual sentence. If one has different translation then please post your translation and then explain.

Till now few said that it is a system and few said religion and someone as debt but i am still in confusion that what it actually means according to you people.

Please answer clearly keeping in mind the sentence because in my understanding one cannot disregard any part of Quran at all times and it does not have any contradictions.

If it is a system or God tells his system in Quran then not forcing it will be useless.
If it is a Religion or God tells his Religion in Quran then not forcing it will be useless.
If it is a debt then not forcing can be understood but if it is only meant to be God's debt.

My understanding is that Deen is a way of God told to us In Quran for our betterment and that is why it is been told clearly that it cannot be forced on others in any way.

Regards.

mmkhan

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

First of all let me know what exactly do you want to know? You said

but it seems that everyone is telling me his understanding of Deen and disregarding the actual sentence. If one has different translation then please post your translation and then explain.

I don't understand this. Look at your subject line. I try to explain what I understand as you asked, but it seems that you are looking for something else now. Please understand your doubt then come up with your question.

If you are refering to "Laa ikraaha fidDeen". It does not contain the word force in any sense.

Please ask you question clearly.

Regards,
mmKhan

khyaletanzim

@mmkhan

If you are refering to "Laa ikraaha fidDeen". It does not contain the word force in any sense.

My dear friend my question is very clear but i dont know how you can say that there is no force in this sentence. what is the meaning of ikraha in this sentence according to your understanding?

according to my understanding the word ikraaha means the following

Arabic - English

,
forcing , compulsion , conquering , constraint , coercion , impelling , force , violence

Regards.

Al_Araf

salam khyaletanzim. you asked for an explanation of the arabic word millat.

2135

there are three ways to examine the word millat, i present them to you in historical order.

in aramaic the word MLL means speech or word.
the letters MLL represent M the water, L the staff of allah's authority, and L the staff of allah's authority. you are aware that the quran refers to rain and water as that which allah sends upon the earth to bring forth life. the double staff emphasizes the authority of allah.
the root of millat is MLL and lane's lexicon and the project root list use the term "vessel" like a clay jar used to carry liquids, or "sewing", as in sewing a patch on a thobe. these two words cross connect with the words of issa, as reported by luke in 536 "no man putteth a piece of new garment upon and old; if otherwise, then the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old" 537 "and no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles; and be spilled, and the bottles will perish"

to sum up the analysis, millat is the double authority words of allah which are sent as a blessing on mankind, to give life. ibrahim was the first to accept the authority of allah completely, to the point he was willing to sacrifice his son. issa warned us to be aware that the words of allah cannot be intermixed with old words of any other concepts or belief, because the words of allah being strong will burst any old vessel, or tear any old cloth. i see people whose very fabric is torn when they hear the words of allah, i see people whose hearts burst unable to accept allahs word, when they try and reconcile allah's word with their old garment, or pour allah's word into an old heart filled with false beliefs. muhammad accepted the authority of allah, and carried his son to the grave crying, saying, ameen, ameen.

allah is the teacher.

mmkhan

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

@mmkhan
My dear friend my question is very clear but i dont know how you can say that there is no force in this sentence. what is the meaning of ikraha in this sentence according to your understanding?

according to my understanding the word ikraaha means the following

Arabic - English

,
forcing , compulsion , conquering , constraint , coercion , impelling , force , violence

Regards.

No, "Ikraha" does not mean Force. Instead of looking at dictionaries, try to look at the usage of the same word in AlQuraan. InshaAllah, you will reach to the correct meaning.

If you understand urdu, it is the same word we use in urdu as Karahiyat, Makrooh, etc... Ikraha is a derivative of Karaha means something you don't like.

Regards,
mmKhan

liquiddharma

That doesn't fit the context - which is followed by "Truth stands out clear from Error", and I don't see how looking at modern Urdu can be more reliable than Arabic when translating the Quran. What other usage in the Quran are you looking at?

Joe_Betik

salaam

please ponder on the possibility that 'deen' simply means 'responsibility; obligation; accountability; etc.'

so, we'll get phrases like 'lakum deenukum wali yadeen' to mean 'for you your responsibilities/obligations, for me my responsibilities/obligations', and 'yawmiddeen' means 'day/time of accountability'.

just ponder without prejudice. insha-Allah God will guide the sincere students.

peace!

jb

khyaletanzim

@mmkhan

friend you told me that it does not mean force but it means dislike. so if I apply as liquiddharma has mentioned it will be like this "no disliking in deen. truth stands out clear from error." does it makes any sense to you? if i am not correct in my understanding then please translate it in English and Urdu for me please.

Kindly explain to me that if i don't look at the dictionaries then where should I look. I have already pasted the meanings of "ikraha". Regarding translations they all have translated similarly. kindly tell me how and on which ayahs i should look. Please do translate 419, 2433

As far as "karha" is concerned then it has the same meaning as you tell.

Arabic - English

alienate from , make hateful to , make disinclined to , make someone hate something , make averse to

loathe , be disinclined to , mislike , abhor , abominate , hate , feel disgust for , hate intensely , have an aversion to or for , feel distaste for , detest

distaste , disfavor , disrelish , dislike , disgust , repugnance , detestation , odium , hate , antipathy , abhorrence , abomination , hatred

revulsion , hate , repugnance , odium , abomination , abhorrence , jaundice , animosity , antipathy , hatred , detestation , disfavor , enmity , disrelish , feud , grudge , antagonism

@ al araf

Please translate according to your meanings the following verses. 788, 1237, 387.

afridi220

Salaaman Khyaletanzim,

No, "Ikraha" does not mean Force. Instead of looking at dictionaries, try to look at the usage of the same word in AlQuraan. InshaAllah, you will reach to the correct meaning.

If you understand urdu, it is the same word we use in urdu as Karahiyat, Makrooh, etc... Ikraha is a derivative of Karaha means something you don't like.

Regards,
mmKhan

Dear mmkhan this arabic not urdu
La Ikrah fil din means no Compulsion in Religion

peace

mmkhan

Salaaman brother Khyaletanzim,

friend you told me that it does not mean force but it means dislike. so if I apply as liquiddharma has mentioned it will be like this "no disliking in deen. truth stands out clear from error." does it makes any sense to you? if i am not correct in my understanding then please translate it in English and Urdu for me please.

"No disliking in deen. Truth stands out clear from error". Why not?

It simply says, there is nothing to dislike in deen. Everything is good for you. Even if you don't like anything in deen, it might be better for you, but you are not understanding it. I hope you got my point. inshaAllah.

Urdu Deen main karahiyat nahin hai. Deen main kuch bhi aisa nahin hai jis se karahiyat ho.

Note If anything don't fit with our current understand does not mean that it is wrong.

Kindly explain to me that if i don't look at the dictionaries then where should I look.

I am not saying you should not look at or refer to dictionaries. But I wanted to say that the meaning in dictionaries may differ from the meaning in AlQuraan. Because, I beleive in all the complex words used in AlQuraan has been defined by AlQuraan itself. I don't know how far you believe in it. But this is what I understand and believe, I might be wrong... and hope Allah will surely correct me if I am wrong.

I have already pasted the meanings of "ikraha".

Yes, you can see what Ikraha mean from what you have quoted. And 'ikraha' is a derivative of 'karaha', so how meaning will change?

Regarding translations they all have translated similarly. kindly tell me how and on which ayahs i should look. Please do translate 419, 2433

419 O YOU who have attained to faith! It is not lawful for you to become heirs to women against their will; and neither shall you keep them under constraint with a view to taking away anything of what you may have given them, unless it be that they have become guilty, in an obvious man?ner, of immoral conduct. And consort with your wives in a goodly manner; for if you dislike them, it may well be that you dislike something which God might yet make a source of abundant good.

Urdu ....Tumhare liye ye halaal nahin hai ke tum aurtaun ke waris ban jao unki karahiyat par.

(419)

For 2433 I have to steady. I am not able to understand the usage of "Tukrihoo" in this verse. May Allah open my heart to understand it clearly and correctly.

Please translate according to your meanings the following verses. 788, 1237, 387.

788 The chieftains of his people, who were scornful, said Surely we will drive thee out, O Shueyb, and those who believe with thee, from our township, unless ye return to our religion. He said Even though we dislike it?

(78

Urdu Kaha sardaraun ne (ya mullaaon ne) jo takabbur karte thae uski qaum se, albatta hum nikaal dainge tujhko aye Shoeb (AS) aur unko jo eiman laye tere saath, hamaari basti mainse. Ya palat aao tum sab hamaare tariqaun par. Kaha (Shoeb AS ne) kya agar huwe hum karaahiyat karte (tab bhi)? 788

I tried to translate it literally. Allah know best.

I don't find anything in relation with 'karaha' in 1237 and 387. Please check.

May Allah open our hearts to understand His message clearly and correctly. pr

Regards,
mmKhan

mmkhan

Salaaman Afridi,

Dear mmkhan this arabic not urdu
La Ikrah fil din means no Compulsion in Religion

I know brother, but I think you don't know urdu because most of the words used in AlQuraan got the same meaning in Urdu. We use those words in Urdu.

OK, if 'karaha' mean 'Compulsion' to you. Please translate 1738 for me.

Regards,
mmKhan

khyaletanzim

Dear mmkhan,

Thanks for the complete answer. You said
It simply says, there is nothing to dislike in deen. Everything is good for you. Even if you don't like anything in deen, it might be better for you, but you are not understanding it. I hope you got my point.

The way you posted it do make sense but the problem is Ikarah and karha does not seem to be written in same way and and this word Ikraha is used only twice in Quran with Alaf and at both places force seems clearer in understanding as per my understanding because the sentences seems to be decisive and not informative.

I think making them same may cause problem in understanding because as you say it is, then it seems to me that it contradicts at many stages when it comes to disbelievers. General statement of this kind by God does not fit into my understanding because of the following reasons. If there is nothing to dislike in system then why disbelievers hate or refuse to accept and upon that the next sentence In that aya also seems to have no use with your understanding. It is not said that there is nothing to dislike in deen for believers but it seem to me as a general and decisive statement addressing all.

1237 and 387 was not for you but for brother Al Araf to translate. Kindly shed light on your understanding of the word millat

Regards.

khyaletanzim

Dear mmkhan,

Logically we have to understand how the TRUTH is made clear from Error, in the Quran it is done by wide range of very strong intellectual and historical arguments in order to direct humans towards the Deen without force. These arguments are required because by default humans will not be going towards the Deen because it is not all like able so to say " there is nothing to dislike in Deen " is clearly incorrect!!! Further, if all is like able then why should there be humans who dislike it and become kafirs?

mmkhan

Salaaman brother Khyaletanzim,

If there is nothing to dislike in system then why disbelievers hate or refuse to accept

They do so because they don't realize the Truth. Like 'Lahmal Khinzeer' is Haraam in System, but they don't realize it why it has been made unlawful.

Millat As per my understanding, it means "Ways or practices" or "Tariqa" in urdu.

May Allah open our hearts to understand the Truth clearly and correctly pr

Regards,
mmKhan

liquiddharma

But if there were compulsion in deen, then there most clearly would be something to dislike about it, and truth would not stand out from error on its own. peace

khyaletanzim

Dear mmkhan,

I think this time you have not read my post attention and your answer is not satisfying. What is the difference between system(nizam) and ways (tariqa)?

Please clarify why taraiqa when deen is there?

Regards.