-=[ Salaat Al Wusta is Salaat al Juma ]=-
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peace farida,
By "evidence" I was referring to the info posted in this forum as well as articles, in which evidence is cited for various views. Of course, some of the info posted will be of a very poor quality, but some of it is very good. See 3918
If you wish to believe "sujood" means "physical prostration", that is up to you.
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Peace be upon you both,
Again, if you choose to physically prostrate, thats fine, but looking at the world FULL of people who get on the ground, how much has getting on the ground changed the behavior of the worlds population? A so called "islamic terrorist" certainly prostrates physically, if only he/she would prostrate with the WILL, they would not do such foolish behavior. And isnt it the BEHAVIOR that we are suppossed to be changing with our prostration? Or are we just suppossed to be scarring our foreheads up?
There is a verse I want you to consider very seriously. I am not your enemy and I dont want you to jump back with a quick answer even if you have heard this before. There is a verse that says when the quran is recited, those who believe PROSTRATE. Period, there is no if, ands, or buts about it.
Do you get on the groung everytime you hear a verse from the quran? Do not take this statement lightly because it will help you get closer to the message, closer to God who is closer than the Jugular vein (within), not way up in the sky somewhere. How can one physically prostrate to THAT which is WITHIN?DOesnt it make more sense that EVERYTIME you hear the recitation of quran, that your behavior is changed due to the reminder? That instead of going to cheat on your wife, you are reminded of truth and you prostrate your will to what is right and take yourself home to your wife? Or is it that you are crossing a busy intersection and you hear the quran recited from someone cars radio, do you stop and prostrate in oncoming traffic?
Also, there is a verse that says "enter the gate prostrating", you will certainly tear the flesh from your forehead if you make this a habit. But if you enter the gate in mental submission to God's Will, then you have entered correctly.
We have all been strongly influenced by physical prostration and it is hard for us to , not give it up, but see that it is not really what is being taught to us by God. Like I said, if it helps you to do right, by all means, continue, but realize that the physical prostration is only useful if it helps you prostrate mentally.
Lastly here is a question, who is better off, one who prostrates mentally but not physically, or one who prostrates physically but not mentally?
Agree.
Anthony why don't you reply to the whole post instead of just the last question.
If you feel like physical prostration works for you, and helps you become a better person, that's fine. But that doesn't mean that God has commanded us to do so.
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Peace be upon you Anthony Wallace,
if one was mentally sane ( one who prostrates mentally) then he would have the sence to prostrate his whole self to the Almi9ghty physically and mentally.
Do you not realize that your physical body ALREADY prostrates to GOD? Doesnt each cell do exactly what God commands it to do? Don't your cells already obey God? Doesnt your hair grow, skin repair itself from cuts, heart beat? So how does putting this earthly vehicle that already follows the will of God into a certain POSITION make it prostrate any more than it already does?
Saying one who is mentally sane prostrates physically is just an emotioanly charged statement, pleas give the logic of why one would do so, otherwise it s fine to agree to disagree, but lets always strive to further explain positions logically or else we are wasting our time here.
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Salaamun William and all,
neither one. Better is the one who prostrates both.
Example Only a fool would not prostrate physically. Why? Because if one was mentally sane ( one who prostrates mentally) then he would have the sence to prostrate his whole self to the Almi9ghty physically and mentally.
Alhamdulillah! I agree 100%
Logically this fits well, now we have to look for how AlQuraan supports this, because almost all the aayaats of AlQuraan are logical. InshaAllah, Allah will show us.
Regards,
mmKhan
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Salaaman Brother GW,
Do you not realize that your physical body ALREADY prostrates to GOD? Doesnt each cell do exactly what God commands it to do? Don't your cells already obey God? Doesnt your hair grow, skin repair itself from cuts, heart beat? So how does putting this earthly vehicle that already follows the will of God into a certain POSITION make it prostrate any more than it already does?
True. But I will clasify it into two as 'Automatic' and 'Manual'.
You are talking about Automatic part which is free from our will. You cannot control them. But Allah asked for Manual work "Illa man taaba, wa aamana, wa amila saalihan....". This part is called Manual. That we have to do.
Hope it helps. May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Peace be upon you,
Logically this fits well
Logic - a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration
Please explain why so many physical prostrators in the world have not improved the conditions of humanity after so long. The outer show can easily fool you, it is what is within that we must change. In fact, God tells us that God will not change the condition of a people until he change what is within thier Nafs(subconcious). You are saying that what you agree with is logical, but you have not given any logical explanation as to how putting your physical vehicle into a certain position does anything to change your behavior.
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Salaamun William and all,
Alhamdulillah! I agree 100%
Logically this fits well, now we have to look for how AlQuraan supports this, because almost all the aayaats of AlQuraan are logical. InshaAllah, Allah will show us.
Regards,
mmKhan
No actually it doesn't make sense, I think.
Prostrating mentally means obeying.God is not the only one we obey. We have to obey other people too. I don't see people physically prostrating to their captains or bosses or parents or teachers.
It is true that our mental state is reflected in our actions, but...
Obeying god is about doing the right actions. The physical manifestation of obeying and submitting to god is doing the right thing.And it's proven that physical prostration means nothing. When you have people that prostrate all the time and do bad things, it shows that the action is meaningless.
So the way we express and show our submission and obedience to God is by right actions.
I smile when I am happy. I cannot smile if I am not.
I do the right thing when I am in sujud to God. I cannot do the right thing if my mentality is not right.
I CAN however prostrate physically regardless of what I believe. That is a meaningless action that doesn't depend on our mental state. It's like sitting or standing. -
Peace be upon you,
You are talking about Automatic part which is free from our will. You cannot control them. But Allah asked for Manual work "Illa man taaba, wa aamana, wa amila saalihan....". This part is called Manual. That we have to do.
Yes, and the manual part would be to physically reach in your pocket and give money to poor, or refrain your hands from hoarding money, or working hard in the garden to produce good food, or to exercise to keep your vehicle in good shape, etc. All those "manual" actions require you to have already prostrates mentally. All of them have a purpose....unlike bending down on the ground. The enemy loves that you put your head on the ground, and wishes you would keep it "prostrate" all day long while they control your mind(nafs).
The Nafs, he who purifies it succeeds and he who corrupts it fails.
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Peace be upon you,
And let me again clarify that although physical prostration in itself does nothing, if you use it as a means of meditation to help change your subconcious(nafs), then by all means do so...but there are better positions for your body to get deeper into trance for meditation.
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Salaamun GW and Lobster,
I said both the states physically and mentally.
When I go for physical sajda and mentally also I feel that I am protrating to Allah alone, and I feel that I am nothing in front of Allah, and also I feel helpless without Allah, and so on...
I think mentally means it is in relation with your feelings. And until I prostrate physically, I never feel that I am showing myself small in front of Allah.
Most of the people who do physical sajda, I cannot answer for them, you have ask them why they do so. But I understand that they only do physical sajda but they don't add mental sajda within. (this is just my personal understanding) That might be the reason, they go for wrong things even after physical sajda.
And also as I said in my other post how will you define "Amale Saleh"? If you don't go for physical retuals?
May Allah open our hearts to understand His Book correctly.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Peace be upon you Anthony Wallace,
Do you not realize that your physical body ALREADY prostrates to GOD? Doesnt each cell do exactly what God commands it to do? Don't your cells already obey God? Doesnt your hair grow, skin repair itself from cuts, heart beat? So how does putting this earthly vehicle that already follows the will of God into a certain POSITION make it prostrate any more than it already does?
Saying one who is mentally sane prostrates physically is just an emotioanly charged statement, pleas give the logic of why one would do so, otherwise it s fine to agree to disagree, but lets always strive to further explain positions logically or else we are wasting our time here.
Salaam G W,
It has been stressed in the Qur'an that when they are asked to prostrate their necks get stiff and they do not prostrate so no, not every cell in the body is prostrating. If you say that the mere functions of the body means it's prostrating then this means that a person whose cells suffer from malfunctions his cells refuse to prostrate???
Every good act depends on our intention to perform it so, if for instance, we bend down to pick something up that is not the same as bowing before God.Or is it that you are crossing a busy intersection and you hear the quran recited from someone cars radio, do you stop and prostrate in oncoming traffic?
Huuh
There is a verse that says when the quran is recited, those who believe PROSTRATE. Period, there is no if, ands, or buts about it.
And by this you mean that one should lie flat on the foor, according to this verse, or do your really read the answers given by those who have been trying to explain to you what prostration is ????
DOesnt it make more sense that EVERYTIME you hear the recitation of quran, that your behavior is changed due to the reminder?
And what are you trying to say that by prostrating ones behaviour is not changed, or that those who prostrate pay no heed to the message ???
If you are seriously interested in exchanging views than make an effort to read what others say and understand by prostration.We have all been strongly influenced by physical prostration and it is hard for us to , not give it up, but see that it is not really what is being taught to us by God. Like I said, if it helps you to do right, by all means, continue, but realize that the physical prostration is only useful if it helps you prostrate mentally.
You may have been deceived by bearded actors chanting prostrating and blowing themselves up. I have the book of guidance which teaches me very clearly how to recognise hypocrites and non believers, I am not so gullible as to get influenced by any physical act or even eloquence.
peace
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Peace be upon you MMKhan,
You stated, "in front of Allah" several times. Is "Allah" some object out there in space? Is that your idea of God?
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Salaaman brother GW,
I am sure that you understand what I meant by "in front of Allah" but tempt
Please brother we are not here to check for mistakes from each other brickwall .. atleast not me D . We are here to discuss in Ahsan ways and try to understand things. Am I right?
Praise be to Allah and ask help from Him. We all are trying to find the best way towards Allah. We are NOT here to WIN. I hope you understand.
Believe me, my intention is not to hurt you or make you wrong but I wanted to call all who keep good understand and also those who keep good knowledge to discuss and find the correct path. There is no problem if anyone does not agree with other. Allah will clarify all we have disagreed with in the Day of Judgement. inshaAllah.
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Will they not prostrate to the Almighty? do not obey them, prostrate phycically and mentally and come near.
Truly, those who prostrate are indeed drawing near to their Lord. You might not be able to see it, but they are seeking a blessing from their Lord.
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Peace be upon you,
It has been stressed in the Qur'an that when they are asked to prostrate their necks get stiff and they do not prostrate so no, not every cell in the body is prostrating.
Do you really think it is not possible for someone with a stiff neck to prostrate? Are we relying on any validation from life or are we just swallowing slogans indescriminately?
If you say that the mere functions of the body means it's prostrating then this means that a person whose cells suffer from malfunctions his cells refuse to prostrate???
Yes, a cancer does not prostrate and look at the hell not prostrating brings. Just like a terrorist who physically prostrates all day and night then goes out and kills little children because "the Quran stresses my unverified position"Every good act depends on our intention to perform it so, if for instance, we bend down to pick something up that is not the same as bowing before God.
So you are saying that the mere physical act means nothing, it is the MIND that makes the difference. Correct? Because they are the same motion but different , right?
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Or is it that you are crossing a busy intersection and you hear the quran recited from someone cars radio, do you stop and prostrate in oncoming traffic?Huuh
I dont understand your answer, my question is very clear, please read it again and let me know what your decision would be.
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There is a verse that says when the quran is recited, those who believe PROSTRATE. Period, there is no if, ands, or buts about it.And by this you mean that one should lie flat on the foor, according to this verse, or do your really read the answers given by those who have been trying to explain to you what prostration is ?
No, I dont mean that, but your understanding of prostration MUST mean that if it is true. My position would be that your thinking would correct itself and you would choose right over wrong with help from the reminder.
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DOesnt it make more sense that EVERYTIME you hear the recitation of quran, that your behavior is changed due to the reminder?And what are you trying to say that by prostrating ones behaviour is not changed, or that those who prostrate pay no heed to the message
The whole world PROVES that the mere act of getting on the ground does nothing to change behavior. You would have to be blind not to see this fact. There are people in my neighborhood who are the worst of criminals who wont miss a friday "jumah" and has scars on thier foreheads thinking it is holy as they spend the night drinking cold syrup and pills to get high and sell drugs and rob people. The islamic fundalists who bomb people surely prostrate physically, as do many christians and other religions. That is clear proof, please provide the same type of exampes for your position.
If you are seriously interested in exchanging views than make an effort to read what others say and understand by prostration.
I am very serious, and I understand your position backwards and fowards, I have been on Free Minds since it was started and there is nothing you have said that I have not either said myself before or heard before.
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We have all been strongly influenced by physical prostration and it is hard for us to , not give it up, but see that it is not really what is being taught to us by God. Like I said, if it helps you to do right, by all means, continue, but realize that the physical prostration is only useful if it helps you prostrate mentally.You may have been deceived by bearded actors chanting prostrating and blowing themselves up. I have the book of guidance which teaches me very clearly how to recognise hypocrites and non believers, I am not so gullible as to get influenced by any physical act or even eloquence.
Why is the conversation being focused on my being "fooled" by bearded actors rather than you providing verification/logic/examples to support your position?
The point was that , bearded actors or not, they physically prostrate. All that is required to physically prostrate is a body, thats it. But you are trying to say that there is a difference between how you physically prostrate, and how THEY do it, perhaps it is the MENTAL ASPECT, which is the only real part, but you avoid saying this directly.
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Peace be upon you MKhan,
I am sure that you understand what I meant by "in front of Allah" but
Yes, you mean that God is an object "out there" that you must bow down in front of. Correct?
Please brother we are not here to check for mistakes from each other .. atleast not me . We are here to discuss in Ahsan ways and try to understand things. Am I right?
And that is what we are doing...the debate is part of the means of testing your theories...the scientist must put the theory to the test.
Praise be to Allah and ask help from Him. We all are trying to find the best way towards Allah. We are NOT here to WIN. I hope you understand.
I am commited to winning...and part of the process is to debate your theories to see if they stand firm like a deeply rooted tree, or if they were built on sandy cliffs.
Believe me, my intention is not to hurt you or make you wrong but I wanted to call all who keep good understand and also those who keep good knowledge to discuss and find the correct path. There is no problem if anyone does not agree with other. Allah will clarify all we have disagreed with in the Day of Judgement. inshaAllah.
And you have not hurt me and I am not out to hurt you...my nature is peace(slm)...but hajja(debate) is part of this system, otherwise everybody confuses everyone else. This is not for play or amusement, this is our life we are dealing with and it is hard enough to follow the truth once it is known, so we cant relax on getting to the truth. This is a jihad(struggle)...not the same are those who sit at home.
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.
Indeed, may the God increase us in Knowledge(that which can be verified)
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Peace be upon you AW,
Will they not prostrate to the Almighty? do not obey them, prostrate phycically and mentally and come near.
Is that what the verse says? Physically and mentally huh?
Truly, those who prostrate are indeed drawing near to their Lord. You might not be able to see it, but they are seeking a blessing from their Lord.
You might not be able to see them PHYSICALLY prostrate? Or are you AGAIN being shown that the prostration is not physical, but WITHIN?
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Peace be upon you,
I am very serious, and I understand your position backwards and fowards, I have been on Free Minds since it was started and there is nothing you have said that I have not either said myself before or heard before.Salaam
No you do not understand my position nor would I like to understand your standpoint. Good for you, that you have been on free-minds since it started. As for me I have been following the book of guidance long before free-minds started. This is not a place which focuses on establishing the truth but a place where many are mislead. For that reason it is important that those who believe that prophet Mohamed did establish our deen and perfected it with the guidance of God stand up against the lies spread. Know that the core of that system is intact as confirmed by many verses of the Quran. Shaitan and hypocites have shrouded it by hadiths and cultural misinterpretations.
And the mosques were established to attract locals who could gather in order to contemplate and act as local assemblies and the month of fasting is the time to attain salvation and learn self control and contribute in saving for the rest of humanity, and hajj is a time of assembly from all corner for even greater good. I can go on and on and on, but I have no desire to teach you or anyone who have their minds set on inventing a religion, other than our deen on this site.Why is the conversation being focused on my being "fooled" by bearded actors rather than you providing verification/logic/examples to support your position?
The point was that , bearded actors or not, they physically prostrate. All that is required to physically prostrate is a body, thats it. But you are trying to say that there is a difference between how you physically prostrate, and how THEY do it, perhaps it is the MENTAL ASPECT, which is the only real part, but you avoid saying this directly.Because you are focusing too much on trying to force your point of view on others. If you do not like to prostrate its your choice but dont try and persuade others to follow your aberrations.
The point it that they do not prostrate at all, if you see them as respresenting some sort of belivers than its your problems.I dont understand your answer, my question is very clear, please read it again and let me know what your decision would be.
Maybe then I should draw your attention to those who call themselves agnostics and they have the best of manner and ethics and have better understanding of morality than many on free minds who pretend to follow the Quran alone but follow only their whims.
4014 Therefore call upon Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience/ State of abasement and submissiveness, though the unbelievers are averse
peace
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Peace Farida,
What God Within is saying is that ANYONE can prostrate physically. As you said, bending down to pick up a dropped object is not the same as bending down "before god." The difference obviously is your mental state. That's the difference between you and those "bearded actors."
The point is, what's important is the mental state, and the physical prostration is not important at all because it is meaningless. If prostration helps you then you can do it, but there is no evidence that physical prostration means anything.
