Number of wives?
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Assalaam Alaikum
Sura Nisa 411 and 412 is NOT referring to any 'plurality' of wives relative to individual Men. Again, thats merely an attempt to 'validate' falsely by implying that polgamy is sanctioned by inheritance law.
Allah (thus) directs you / Yoosee (dual pronoun ,2nd person, male & female, PLURAL)to recommend, to order, to command, to counsel, make a will
Allah is addressing ALL, male, female, and those involved in the circumstance of understanding inheritance
Sura Nisa 412 is a 'continuation' of that 'counsel' or 'command' relating to inheritance law...
In what your mates leave / Wa lakum nisfu ma taraka azwajukum (dual pronoun 2nd person, male & female, PLURAL)
Sura 411 - 412 is NOT a sanction of polygamy (multiple wives), its clearly defining inheritance law. If someone has multiple wives, mates or debts its all addressed in those ayahs.
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True, and it can mean one wife or a number of wives.
As is indicative by inheritance to a child or a number of CHILDREN- where does it tell us the shares for say 4 boy children? It doesn't? As for a number of wives, isn't it?
Assalaam Alaikum @simple....
It amazes how some of you can just say 'no verse exist', 'its not in the quran', 'it doesn't exist in the quran'
Allah states....
There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. NOTHING HAVE WE OMITTED FROM THE BOOK, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance). to the male, a portion / HATHTHI equal to that of two females.
It doesnt matter If he has 100 boys, they all split a 'portion' 'equal' to the portion of ONE of the Females. Not equal to the 'sum' of two Females but the same portion's Females spilt between thermselves.
a portion 1/4th , equal to that of two females = 2/3rd?s
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Were we to understand that the plural of wives may include the plurality of them for a particular husband, still something would be lacking. The deceased may have children with one of them and not with another, which would change everything if we are to follow known considerations in the Quran.
As to the YOU in 2.240, it must refer to the collectivity which it is addressing since the begining, which as I understand it is the community of believers, and in each occasion the part of that community which is competent for whatever action it is mentioning. In many cases it may be the community at large, like in the case of the orphans, there may be no particular maintainer appointed as such either by succession or by the deceased or by self appointment, and it falls on the whole community to see to it.
Salaam
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Were we to understand that the plural of wives may include the plurality of them for a particular husband, still something would be lacking. The deceased may have children with one of them and not with another, which would change everything if we are to follow known considerations in the Quran.
As to the YOU in 2.240, it must refer to the collectivity which it is addressing since the begining, which as I understand it is the community of believers, and in each occasion the part of that community which is competent for whatever action it is mentioning. In many cases it may be the community at large, like in the case of the orphans, there may be no particular maintainer appointed as such either by succession or by the deceased or by self appointment, and it falls on the whole community to see to it.
Salaam
Those of you / allatheena
collective, community of people
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Of which verse?
Whatever verse it is. For instance, do you find democracy in the Quran? No? Still, as a muslim, one supports the democracy? This is because we extrapolate from the Quran, that society evolves from it's teachings, and that is not in conflict with it, no, it is what it intends.
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However, I do not agree with you on th second point. The inheritance verses state a formula, so it covers all probabilities. Same as for siblings. On the other hand, no such formula exists for wives/husbands. I think this is what huruf meant, and I agree with her. No such accommodation for more than one wife can be deduced, directly or indirectly, from the inheritance verses.
Hi Samia,
In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth
Their share ia fourth but if you leave children they get an eighth , what formulae do we need?
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Those of you / allatheena
collective, community of people
Salaams Br,
can you give your translation of this ayah please;
004.003
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the Al-Yataama, then Marry what seems good to you of women, Two's, three's, four's(e.t.c); but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, though, with Oath, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Salaams.
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Salaams Br,
can you give your translation of this ayah please;
004.003
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the Al-Yataama, then Marry what seems good to you of women, Two's, three's, four's(e.t.c); but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, though, with Oath, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Salaams.
Assalaam Alaikum @Simple
I addressed the verse with supportive references on this thread page #2
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.15
"seems good to you " is NOT in the arabic
Nor does mathna, thulatha and ruba'a mean the cardinal numbers 2,3 and 4
Please review my posts.
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Does it occur to anyone that if a passage in the Quran is this opaque, relying upon it for moral guidance in such a broad area of life could be unwise.
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.
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Assalaam Alaikum @Simple
I addressed the verse with supportive references on this thread page #2
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.15
"seems good to you " is NOT in the arabic
Nor does mathna, thulatha and ruba'a mean the cardinal numbers 2,3 and 4
Please review my posts.
After checking the dictionaries they do simply mean two's,three's, fours......
Alaho Hafiz.
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Greetings@Muslimtruthrevealed,
We are NOT on the same page...your off point....
baadu / after this is referring to the 'decree that ends 'excesses' in regards to women in Sura 3337....and
in the reference to the 'exclusive' right of the Messenger to marry women of his choosing
O those who believe in the Prophet! ....ANY BELIEVING WOMAN WHO DEDICATES HER SOUL TO THE PROPHET IF THE PROPHET WISHES TO WED HER;- THIS ONLY FOR YOU, AND NOT FOR (You) THE BELIEVERS / waimraatan muminatan in wahabat nafsaha lilnnabiyyi in arada alnnabiyyu an yastankihaha/ khalisatan/ laka min dooni almumineena
Unfortunately, the English translation does NOT capture and reflect the context and meanings of the Arabic constructs.
You are correct, we are absolutely NOT on the same page and have no idea how you manage to read...
"O those who believe in the Prophet!"
Where is "O those who believe" in the verse or are you injecting your words in Quran?
3350
Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu
You, you the Prophet!INCONCLUSIVE to infer from inheritance verses.
The basic formula is 1 ? Parents ? Spouse/s = Children share
HUSBAND
412 And for you (plural) 1/2 what your (plural) spouses/wives left, if was/is not for them (female/plural) a child...WIVES
412...and for them (female/plural) the 1/4 from what you (plural) left, if was not for you (plural) a child...The case of multiple members is distribute share evenly amongst each member; e.g.
No children, 1 sister, 2 brothers
4176 ?and for him a sister, so for her half what he left
1 ? ? sister = ? brothers (1/4 for each brother)None have yet addressed the case of the two sisters which is under general prohibition for all...
422-23 And do not marry what your fathers married from the women, except what had preceded/passed, that it was an enormous/atrocious deed, and abhorrence/hateful, and (it is an) evil way/path. Your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your paternal aunts, and your maternal aunts, and the brothers' daughters (nieces), and the sisters' daughters (nieces), and your mothers who breast fed you, and your sisters from the breast feeding, and your women's (wives' mothers (mothers in-law), and your step- daughters who (are) in your custody from your women (wives) whom you entered with them, are forbidden on you, so if you were not entered with them, so no offense/sin on you, and (also forbidden on you are) your sons' allowed/permitted women (wives) whom (are) from your backbones/genealogical relations, and that you combine between the two sisters, except what had preceded, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
Of those things which have preceded, the exceptions moving forward are made clear above.
This is similar to marrying cousins which some cultures find appalling; not prohibited in Quran nor condoned and left as a matter of choice amongst participants. We are in no position to critique other peoples choices of who to marry -- it is their choice of lifestyle if they choose to live it as such.
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After checking the dictionaries they do simply mean two's,three's, fours......
Alaho Hafiz.
Sure they do.....
Can you please give which dictionary you have that suggests mathna, thulatha and rubaa'a are ordinal numbers 2,3 & 4?
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Salamun-Alaikum@Muslimtruthrevealed,
Dear brother really learning from your deliberations, new here, but after reading this whole thread, i have to ask about this following verse.
4129 Men who have been permitted a second wife must understand that You will not be able to deal equally between your wives however much you wish. But turn not altogether away from one, leaving her as if in suspense between having and not having a husband. Fulfill the rights of each one of them and be mindful of Allah. Verily, Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Like i said i have read the whole thread, and your exposition about 43 makes a lot of sense. please elaborate on this above verse, correct the translation please if that be so, i have been reading this while Surat, and there is quite a bit of reading to be done, but also Al-Quran talks many places about wife, and wives, and clear use of singular and plural can be observed.
Also direct me to the post discussing the use of Al-Kh-M-R. "Alcohol" Wine, etc
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Assalaam Alaikum @Nun de plume
If you would read the PREVIOUS ayah....
O you who believe!
O those who believe in the Prophet!
Ya / Present Tense Vocative, NOW, calling for YOUR attention
ayyuha / present tense vocative NOUN meaning 'Which one of you, Who, Whosoever
An-Nabiyyu / Accusative, Object of 'those who believe'
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Salamun-Alaikum@Muslimtruthrevealed,
Dear brother really learning from your deliberations, new here, but after reading this whole thread, i have to ask about this following verse.
4129 Men who have been permitted a second wife must understand that You will not be able to deal equally between your wives however much you wish. But turn not altogether away from one, leaving her as if in suspense between having and not having a husband. Fulfill the rights of each one of them and be mindful of Allah. Verily, Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Like i said i have read the whole thread, and your exposition about 43 makes a lot of sense. please elaborate on this above verse, correct the translation please if that be so, i have been reading this while Surat, and there is quite a bit of reading to be done, but also Al-Quran talks many places about wife, and wives, and clear use of singular and plural can be observed.
Also direct me to the post discussing the use of Al-Kh-M-R. "Alcohol" Wine, etc
Assalaam Alaikum @Nadir
Thank You Brother Nadir, I sincerely appreciate your observations. My agenda here is just to convey the message of Allah, thats all.
And YOU CAN NEVER / LAN HAVE THE CAPABILITY / tastateeAAoo TO BE EQUITABLE BETWEEN WOMEN / AN-NISAI, even if you are eager, so you do not incline, inclining totally (to any one of them), then you leave her as suspended and if you amend / correct and take guard, then surely Allah is oft forgiving, merciful.
Lan negative particle in the FUTURE sense
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 519tastateeAAoo (imperfect, 2nd person, masculine, plural Verb Form X means to attempt or desire something) You are NOT able;Root word Ta?a to obey or permit
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 345-346 (ta?a)AN-NISAI, Definite Noun, Women NOT 'wives' mistranslation
The context and reference of the ayah is addressing the desires of Men, FUTURE, wishful thinking, etc.
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Salamun-Alaikum@Muslimtruthrevealed,
Dear brother really learning from your deliberations, new here, but after reading this whole thread, i have to ask about this following verse.
4129 Men who have been permitted a second wife must understand that You will not be able to deal equally between your wives however much you wish. But turn not altogether away from one, leaving her as if in suspense between having and not having a husband. Fulfill the rights of each one of them and be mindful of Allah. Verily, Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Like i said i have read the whole thread, and your exposition about 43 makes a lot of sense. please elaborate on this above verse, correct the translation please if that be so, i have been reading this while Surat, and there is quite a bit of reading to be done, but also Al-Quran talks many places about wife, and wives, and clear use of singular and plural can be observed.
Also direct me to the post discussing the use of Al-Kh-M-R. "Alcohol" Wine, etc
4129
Transliteration Walan tastateeAAoo an taAAdiloo bayna alnnisai walaw harastum fala tameeloo kulla almayli fatatharooha kaalmuAAallaqati wain tuslihoo watattaqoo fainna Allaha kana ghafooran raheeman
Abdullah Yusuf Ali Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self- restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Mufti Taqi Usmani You shall never be able to maintain real equality between wives, even though you are eager to. So, do not lean totally (towards one) and leave the other as suspended. If you act righteously and fear Allah, then, Allah is Most-Forgiving, Very-Merciful.
Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so) But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Sahih International And you will never be able to be equal between wives, even if you should strive . So do not incline completely and leave another hanging. And if you amend and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful -
If you would read the PREVIOUS ayah....
O you who believe!
O those who believe in the Prophet!
Ya / Present Tense Vocative, NOW, calling for YOUR attention
ayyuha / present tense vocative NOUN meaning 'Which one of you, Who, Whosoever
An-Nabiyyu / Accusative, Object of 'those who believe'
Greetings@Muslimtruthrevealed, if you would only read... !
"YA AYYUHA ALLATHEENA" ? addresses/calls attention to believers!
3349 You, you those who believe!Read
? Al-Baqara (The Cow) >
? Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)
? An-Nisa (The Women)
? Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
? Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)
? At-Tauba (The Repentance)
? Al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage)
? Al-Nour (The Light)
? Al-Ahzab (The Confederates)
? Muhammad
? Al-Hujurat (The Dwellings)
? Al-Hadid (Iron)
? Al-Mujadilah (The Disputation)
? Al-Hashr (The Gathering)
? Al-Mumtahinah (The Examined One)
? As-Saff (The Row)
? Al-Jumu'ah (Friday)
? Al-Munafiqun (The Hypocrites)
? At-Taghabun (Loss and Gain)
? At-Tahrem (The Banning)"YA AYYUHA ALNNABIYYU" ? addresses/calls attention to the prophet!
3350 You, you the prophet!Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu hasbuka Allahu wamani ittabaAAaka mina almu/mineena
864 You, you the prophet! God is enough for you and who follow you from the believers.Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu harridi almu/mineena
865 You, you the prophet! Encourage the believers...Read
? Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)>
? At-Tauba (The Repentance)>
? Al-Ahzab (The Confederates)>
? Al-Mumtahinah (The Examined One)
? At-Talaq (The Divorce)
? At-Tahrem (The Banning)
? Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)>
? At-Tauba (The Repentance)>
? Al-Ahzab (The Confederates)>
? Al-Mumtahinah (The Examined One)
? At-Talaq (The Divorce)
? At-Tahrem (The Banning)peace
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Assalaam Alaikum @Nun
All of YOUR English references are wrong
"YA AYYUHA ALNNABIYYU" ? addresses/calls attention to the prophet!
3350 You, you the prophet!Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu hasbuka Allahu wamani ittabaAAaka mina almu/mineena
864 You, you the prophet! God is enough for you and who follow you from the believers.Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu harridi almu/mineena
865 You, you the prophet! Encourage the believers...I explained clearly in the previous post that there are TWO PRESENT TENSE vocatives....
Ya & ayyuha....Present Tense..Now....
Nabiyyu is an Accusative Case...Its the Object of of those who 'Believe'. Accusative means something is being DONE to the Object, Nabiyyu its NOT referencing the 'actual' 'living' Prophet, its referencing the character and behavior displayed by the Prophet that the Believers are 'Believing in'.
Think of the Accusative Case as someone 'accusing' you of something (i.e. He/She is a great person or He/She is a Humble Muslim)
The Quran is guidance for those alive NOT those that are dead.
That it may give admonition to any (who are) alive / hayyan, and that the charge may be proved against those who reject (Truth).
Muhammed, saw is nolonger living...Im sorry that may upset you emotionally, but its the reality and Allah is the reality
This is so, because Allah is the Reality. it is He Who gives life to the dead, and it is He Who has power over all things.
And verily the Hour will come. there can be no doubt about it, or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves.
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Greetings again @Muslimtruthrevealed,
All of YOUR English references are wrong
Then YOU translate the verses below with ?Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu?...
? Al-Anfal (The Spoils of War)>
? At-Tauba (The Repentance)>
? Al-Ahzab (The Confederates)>
? Al-Mumtahinah (The Examined One)
? At-Talaq (The Divorce)
? At-Tahrem (The Banning)The Quran is guidance for those alive NOT those that are dead.
The guidance relates stories of the past...
12111 In their narration (stories there) had been an example/warning to those of the pure minds/hearts (it) was not an information/speech to be fabricated and but confirmation (to) which (is) between his hands and detailing/explaining/clarifying every thing, and guidance, and mercy to (a) nation believing.
Muhammed, saw is nolonger living...Im sorry that may upset you emotionally
Yes all prophets ? what leads you believe that this upsets me emotionally?
Stay on topic, not divert into assumptions and word injections where there are none.
Address the case of the two sisters which is under general prohibition for all...
422-23 And do not marry what your fathers married from the women, except what had preceded/passed, that it was an enormous/atrocious deed, and abhorrence/hateful, and (it is an) evil way/path. Your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your paternal aunts, and your maternal aunts, and the brothers' daughters (nieces), and the sisters' daughters (nieces), and your mothers who breast fed you, and your sisters from the breast feeding, and your women's (wives' mothers (mothers in-law), and your step- daughters who (are) in your custody from your women (wives) whom you entered with them, are forbidden on you, so if you were not entered with them, so no offense/sin on you, and (also forbidden on you are) your sons' allowed/permitted women (wives) whom (are) from your backbones/genealogical relations, and that you combine between the two sisters, except what had preceded, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
Of those things which have preceded, the exceptions moving forward are made clear.