All Mighty God?

Ahmad_Bilal

One thing you said though was that this timeless universe would have had a cause and that the effect would be it's creation. With what we understand, would'nt that already put some sort of time on this universe?

I mean like it had a begining. Dosn't that make it time related??
But then again we only understand the laws of this universe.

Perhaps only God is an exception to time.

This is correct. Anything that has a beginning is subject to time and space. This can be anything as big as an entire planet or galaxy, or it could be as small as an insect, or even bacteria. The only thing/being not subject to time and space is that which is UNcreated, and the only thing in existence that was never formed is God Himself. Therefore, God is the only thing/being not subject to time and space.

nimnimak_11

This is correct. Anything that has a beginning is subject to time and space. This can be anything as big as an entire planet or galaxy, or it could be as small as an insect, or even bacteria. The only thing/being not subject to time and space is that which is UNcreated, and the only thing in existence that was never formed is God Himself. Therefore, God is the only thing/being not subject to time and space.

Makes sense ! bravo

peace

jonny_k

Peace "BT",
Sorry for the late reply.

Peace.

There does not have to be an infinite number of universes nor does there have to be an infinite amount of energy. This is a theory of yours ( one that many scientists share ), but it's not a fact.

JK- If this is not so then this would mean that theres perpetual motion going on. What caused the "first" particle in our universe to move if not another particle and so on ad infinitum? Thats why in order to be consistent with llogic it has to be so.

God's power has no limit; He is The All Able. None of us can understand God. Nobody can understand God except for God.

JK- Ok is GOD able to create a rock that He Himself cannot lift? Think about that one. BESIDES here the issue wasnt if GOD can or cannot do something BUT AS TO WHAT HE ACTUALLY CHOSE TO DO.

You believe in what I call the Infinite Wheel of Cause and Effect. Remember, in this universe there is a cause for every effect and there is an effect for every cause. Many people use this idea to make the stupid argument where they say something like " If God created the universe, then who created God?" This is ridicilous! Nobody created God, and as I have said before, we will never be able to understand God completely. There are some things that will always be out of our reach.

JK- I know this is stupid and i know that nobody created GOD. Ive explained already that GOD is there AS A RESULT OF THE VERY INFINITE CAUSE AND EFFECTS WHICH HAVE LED GOD TO BE THERE. But since this happened infinite "time" ago we might as well say GOD was always there. This is the crucial pt those people miss. They shldve thought a bit further. And ofcourse you cant understand GOD completely EVER because Hes Infinite in every regard which is again causally inevitable.

You say you don't understand why God would create only one universe. So what? God knows best the reasons for why He does certain things and why He doesn't do others. God might make something happen to you which to you would seem like a bad thing, but in the end you see that it was actually a good thing. Again, we cannot understand God!!!

JK- The simplest explanation at hand is that the Infinite GOD with Infinite knowledge would continue to use His Power and create infinite amount of beings or did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created only one universe?

Concerning light, you were talking about Olber's Paradox. The paradox was that since there were so many light sources in the sky ( such as stars ), then the night sky should be brighter than the daytime sky because when all that light from those sources reached Earth, the sky should've become very bright due to all this incoming light. The reason for why this isn't the actual situation is because as light is emitted, it's frequency decreases over time, which makes for less powerful light rays. For example, light could be emitted in gamma form from a star and reach the Earth in radio form. Also, the atmosphere blocks out several forms of light.

JK- Yes but im talking about a much more complex issue i.e. the infinite intervention theorem. Meaning if there are infinite universes, then inevitably an infinite amount of intelligence is going to penetrate every universe and force it's own will till all have reached ONE COMPLETE LOGICAL WAY OF THINKING. This does not happen because GOD is already there before all His creations and is yet another proof for His existence and Him being one.

You don't know how many universes exist, nor do you know whether God has made fixed rules for all of them. Consider Hell, for example. Hell might be in its own universe. The Quran says that there are seven universes, but what that means is open to interpretation. Hell might exst in its own universe in which there are no fixed rules, in which there is no fixed system. Maybe there's fire that doesn't obey physics or something like that, but instead moves randomly. Another point I want to make is that many physicists believe that over the course of time since this universe's beginning, there might have been fluctuations in the universes fundemental physical values, which would then affect all the constants of the universe meaning that the physics of this universe could have changed over time. This especially appears true when getting closer and closer to the Planck Epoch, which is a period of the universe that nobody understands.

JK- The word "7 heavens" need not mean "7 universes" but seven layers of the universe right here i.e. 7 layers of our universe. Moreover the Quran does not say that GOD only created 7 universes, period. I understand that these are for us to observe beyond which we can never go unless we die, are converted to quantum waves and then rise back again on DOJ. As for the laws of a universe they MUST BE THE SAME. If theyr not then how would you know it's the same GOD doing these "miracles"? Say tomorrow the sky breaks open and Jesus comes down. Would that make me believe in one god? On the contrary it would make me think this universe was created by a different god and now this god intervened and destroyed the laws of the former god. Do you understand now why the real miracle is the absence of such paranormal events?

This comment is about your first sentence. You need to explain your idea a bit further.

I could write a lot more, but this is it for now. If you don't understand something, please tell me.

JK- Quantum particles/waves are the smallest particles possible in our universe. In order to observe them directly wed need even smaller particles which we wld never have. Thats why these problems are inevitable. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "nimnismak",

Peace JK and Bosnian thinker

About cause and effect. Just wanted to point out the concepts i learnt in Philosophy.

Everything that is contingent has a cause. You cannot have an infinite number of causes as something must have started the chain link of causes. Hence there must be an uncaused cause, something that is outside of the contingency cycle that starts the chain. This is God. (Thomas Aquinas)

JK- NO this wrong and illogical and it will not convince anyone of the existence of GOD. Rather GOD is Infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm merged into one over infinite "time". That is the most logical definition i can think off.

Cause and effect is just the way our mind has been setup to analyse the universe. The truth could be otherwise. (Kant)

JK- This is another nonsense thinking. No cause and effect equals nothingness by its very definition.

Personally i agree with the 1st one but i think Kant also has a good point. There might be something beyond cause and effect that we can't properly precieve. Becuase i believe in God i think that this mind setup guides us to the truth in which the law of cause and effect is the truth.

Ultimately i agree with Thomas Aquinas.

JK- The expression "there mightg be somehting beyond cause and effect" is as faulty as "GOD can create a rock which He Himself cannot lift". Think abt tht one. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "ahmed Bilal",

This is correct. Anything that has a beginning is subject to time and space. This can be anything as big as an entire planet or galaxy, or it could be as small as an insect, or even bacteria. The only thing/being not subject to time and space is that which is UNcreated, and the only thing in existence that was never formed is God Himself. Therefore, God is the only thing/being not subject to time and space.

JK- Im sorry to say that your still stuck with this faulty logic of T. Aquinas. This statement is as false as saying that "GOD can make a rock which He Himself cannot lift". I dont even call cause and effect a law. Rather it's a LOGICAL NECESSITY and as i explained GOD will inevitably be there by accepting infinite cause and effect and He or any ultimate Being wont be there at all if it is not accepted sice no cause and effect by definition means NOTHING. GOD Bless!

Bosnian_Thinker

JK- If this is not so then this would mean that theres perpetual motion going on. What caused the "first" particle in our universe to move if not another particle and so on ad infinitum? Thats why in order to be consistent with llogic it has to be so.

According to the law of conservation of energy - which states that the total energy in a closed system is always conserved - perpetual motion is not possible. This law does not always work. Have you ever heard of virtual particles? They are particles that pop in and out once in a while from nowhere; in this case, the law of conservation of energy breaks down. Perhaps perpetual motion is possible somehow. I highly doubt it, but it's possible.
Quantum gravity is not well understood and that is why the Planck Epoch is so confusing. I think String Theory is the answer but I don't know. Collisions are not the only cases in which particles move. Forces can move particles. Space can move particles. The earth gravitates around the sun because the sun, which has an enormous mass, warps the fabric of spacetime around it causing the earth to circle in that warp. In this case, a particle is not required at all to make another particle move.
I mentioned the Planck Epoch above. I believe that the Big Bang theory is correct, and according to the Big Bang theory, there was a singularity which then evolved into space, time, matter, and energy. The first stage of the universe according to this theory was the Planck Epoch. The Planck Epoch is not understood at all; it only lasted 1 x 10^-43s, but it's more complex than any other epoch. It set the foundation for the rest of the universe and it is unknown what happened during it. You said in your post that "it has to be so". It does not have to be so. I don't know the answer. You don't know the answer either, and so stop saying that it HAS to be so! No one knows what happened at the beginning of the universe, and that includes you.

JK- Ok is GOD able to create a rock that He Himself cannot lift? Think about that one. BESIDES here the issue wasnt if GOD can or cannot do something BUT AS TO WHAT HE ACTUALLY CHOSE TO DO.

God is The All Able. He could absolutely create a rock that He could not lift. However, why would God ever do such a thing? Why would God ever do something that limits His power? That wouldn't make any sense.

JK- I know this is stupid and i know that nobody created GOD. Ive explained already that GOD is there AS A RESULT OF THE VERY INFINITE CAUSE AND EFFECTS WHICH HAVE LED GOD TO BE THERE. But since this happened infinite "time" ago we might as well say GOD was always there. This is the crucial pt those people miss. They shldve thought a bit further. And ofcourse you cant understand GOD completely EVER because Hes Infinite in every regard which is again causally inevitable.

What are you talking about?!

JK- The simplest explanation at hand is that the Infinite GOD with Infinite knowledge would continue to use His Power and create infinite amount of beings or did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created only one universe?

Did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created more than one universe?
It doesn't matter what the simplest explanation is. The question is what is the true explanation? This is something that only God knows completely.

JK- Yes but im talking about a much more complex issue i.e. the infinite intervention theorem. Meaning if there are infinite universes, then inevitably an infinite amount of intelligence is going to penetrate every universe and force it's own will till all have reached ONE COMPLETE LOGICAL WAY OF THINKING. This does not happen because GOD is already there before all His creations and is yet another proof for His existence and Him being one.

I don't understand what you said here at all. Please explain.

JK- The word "7 heavens" need not mean "7 universes" but seven layers of the universe right here i.e. 7 layers of our universe. Moreover the Quran does not say that GOD only created 7 universes, period. I understand that these are for us to observe beyond which we can never go unless we die, are converted to quantum waves and then rise back again on DOJ. As for the laws of a universe they MUST BE THE SAME. If theyr not then how would you know it's the same GOD doing these "miracles"? Say tomorrow the sky breaks open and Jesus comes down. Would that make me believe in one god? On the contrary it would make me think this universe was created by a different god and now this god intervened and destroyed the laws of the former god. Do you understand now why the real miracle is the absence of such paranormal events?

Where in the Quran does it say that the 7 heavens relates to layers of this universe? I don't remember ever reading such a verse.
The Quran does not say that God created more than 7 universes.
Again you're saying that something MUST exist in a certain way. If the Quran said that the laws of a universe must always be the same, then I would agree with you. However, that's not the case and so perhaps they always do stay the same and perhaps they don't.

JK- Quantum particles/waves are the smallest particles possible in our universe. In order to observe them directly wed need even smaller particles which we wld never have. Thats why these problems are inevitable. GOD Bless!

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!! I think strings are the smallest things in the universe. I don't believe that there's an infinite sequence in either the macro or micro directions.
jonny k, throughout your post, you have said a thousand times that something must be like this or that. Well, you're wrong. God is the only one who understands completely His creation. You don't. When you reply to this post, reply in a rightful manner or I will not reply. Thank you!

jonny_k

Peace "BT",

According to the law of conservation of energy - which states that the total energy in a closed system is always conserved - perpetual motion is not possible. This law does not always work. Have you ever heard of virtual particles? They are particles that pop in and out once in a while from nowhere; in this case, the law of conservation of energy breaks down. Perhaps perpetual motion is possible somehow. I highly doubt it, but it's possible.

JK- If you doubt perpetual motion exists then there must be an infinite amount of energy out there. Furthermore virtual particles only suddenly popup because we cannot examine the exact cause till now. That by no means means hat they actually popout of nothing because if particles can just popout of nothing then what hinders them to do so an infinite no of times thus causing infinite intervention and not allowing anything to exist.

Quantum gravity is not well understood and that is why the Planck Epoch is so confusing. I think String Theory is the answer but I don't know. Collisions are not the only cases in which particles move. Forces can move particles. Space can move particles. The earth gravitates around the sun because the sun, which has an enormous mass, warps the fabric of spacetime around it causing the earth to circle in that warp. In this case, a particle is not required at all to make another particle move.

JK- Yes but space, forces etc is all particles just some cannot be defined yet. It's all cause and effect otherwise it's nothing. Since we know space is something it must be made out of particles and ofcourse theres a cause for every effect.

I mentioned the Planck Epoch above. I believe that the Big Bang theory is correct, and according to the Big Bang theory, there was a singularity which then evolved into space, time, matter, and energy. The first stage of the universe according to this theory was the Planck Epoch. The Planck Epoch is not understood at all; it only lasted 1 x 10^-43s, but it's more complex than any other epoch. It set the foundation for the rest of the universe and it is unknown what happened during it. You said in your post that "it has to be so". It does not have to be so. I don't know the answer. You don't know the answer either, and so stop saying that it HAS to be so! No one knows what happened at the beginning of the universe, and that includes you.

JK- One thing i can say for sure that EVERY EFFECT MUST HAVE A CAUSE AD INFINTUM or else offer a logical explanation around this taking into consideration that this would also mean that GOD can create a rock which He himself cannot lift. Makes no sense!!!

God is The All Able. He could absolutely create a rock that He could not lift. However, why would God ever do such a thing? Why would God ever do something that limits His power? That wouldn't make any sense.

JK- MAN THIS MAKES NO SENSE! Bro your arguments are becoming ridiculous now. If this is true then GOD can also turn into a man and all anthropomorphic religions could claim to be right. This is exactly the point why i say trinity is wrong because the Infinite Being cannot turn Himself into a Finite Being. It is logically impossible. For the last time with your type of argumentaion everyone on this forum is absolutely right. theres no point of having anymore discussion.

What are you talking about?!

JK- Im talking about GOD resulting out of an infinite no of random fluctuations which have lasted over an infinite period of "time" in the quantum realm before anything was created by Him by differentiating the quantum particles into matter as in our universe.

Did you explicitly read in the Quran that He created more than one universe?

JK- No but logic dictates that as ive mentioned and since the Quran doesnt negate this so it is true. If GOD has unlimited knowledge Hed use it endlessly. Doesnt make sense that Hed only create a limited amount of creatures.

It doesn't matter what the simplest explanation is. The question is what is the true explanation? This is something that only God knows completely.

JK- Yes and what ive explaiend is the best explanation possible by the use of logic and thts as close as wed ever get. Im not denying tht. Anyone can try and challenge my statements. lets see how logical thtd get.

I don't understand what you said here at all. Please explain.

JK- I mean since ive already said tht GOD creating an infinite no of beings wld be only reasonable to assume since He has Infinite knowledge each one of those has a seprate universe after a certain pt so tht there cant be an infinite amount of disturbance as an infinite set of intelligent beings play out against another.

Where in the Quran does it say that the 7 heavens relates to layers of this universe? I don't remember ever reading such a verse.

JK- No that is what i assume it to mean and im allowed to do so as are you. However to say that this 7 heavens refers to the absolute amount of universes seems ludicrous to me as ive mentioned before and it will not convince most rational minds.

The Quran does not say that God created more than 7 universes.

JK- It doesnt say not either so the pt must be approached using thinking outside the Quran.

Again you're saying that something MUST exist in a certain way. If the Quran said that the laws of a universe must always be the same, then I would agree with you. However, that's not the case and so perhaps they always do stay the same and perhaps they don't.

JK- Yes the Quran does say tht GOD's system NEVER CHANGES. This is very clear to me and many others especially bro Arnold whos written articles on this numerous times. Once again if GOD changed His own laws any time how on earth would we ever know it's the same god and not another god?. How wld we know that theres only one god? Think, this is only possible if the laws are the same throughout the universe.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!! I think strings are the smallest things in the universe. I don't believe that there's an infinite sequence in either the macro or micro directions.

JK- Strings are quantum fluctuations. You can divide each quantum fwave/particle and get a smaller/lesser energetic uantum particle/wave ad infintum too.

jonny k, throughout your post, you have said a thousand times that something must be like this or that. Well, you're wrong. God is the only one who understands completely His creation. You don't. When you reply to this post, reply in a rightful manner or I will not reply. Thank you!

JK- I never claimed to understand completely GOD or His creation. You dont get it. There are howver some points which are logical and hence must be so like cause and effect for example or 1+1 being 2. THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE VERY DEFINITIONS OF THE TERMS. If you say there might be a place where theres no cause and effect then you have to explain such a hypothetical area and not just say "eerything is possible". I told you already that if there is something then by definition there is cause and effect otherwise there is nothing. plain and simple. GOD Bless!

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace "Jonny_K",

JK- Im sorry to say that your still stuck with this faulty logic of T. Aquinas. This statement is as false as saying that "GOD can make a rock which He Himself cannot lift". I dont even call cause and effect a law. Rather it's a LOGICAL NECESSITY and as i explained GOD will inevitably be there by accepting infinite cause and effect and He or any ultimate Being wont be there at all if it is not accepted sice no cause and effect by definition means NOTHING.

This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.

You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.

Peace,

Ahmad

Bosnian_Thinker

Accidental post.

Bosnian_Thinker

Peace "Jonny_K",

This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.

You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.

Peace,

Ahmad

Ahmad Bilal, I'm amazed that I have finally found a post of yours that I agree with!

bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo bravo

jonny_k

Peace "Ahmad Bilal",

Peace "Jonny_K",

This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.

JK- Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of the amount of changes in posiiton of an object with respect to another. Hence if there is no time THERE IS NOTHING. If there is something then time is automatically there because something can only be there if it is moving/vibrating at some level or the other. This is plain logic. Hence GOD did not create time in an absolute sense. Actually time isnt even something to be created. It is always there just not necessarily in the form we know it. As for GOD having always existed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE BUT your explanation is not. Ive made this very clear. the statement "GOD is not limited by time" does not make any sense. What do you want to say by that? Time in the absolute sense is not somehting to be created but a measurement. However relatively since there can be time dilation we can say that the time of this particular universe is differen than another ones implying that the cause and effect relationship is different. But if there is no time at all then that place is EMPTY, NOTHINGNESS. Are you saying GOD is, GOD forbid, nothing???!!

You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.

Peace,

Ahmad

JK- Listen bro this is an absolutely irrational argument because int eh same way Hindus can say that their gods surpass all our rational concepts so how could you prove them wrong? This is no argument at all especially when theres a very logical explanation at hand which does not degrade GOD in the least whilst at the same time proving His existence. GOD Bless!

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace "Jonny_K",

JK- Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of the amount of changes in posiiton of an object with respect to another. Hence if there is no time THERE IS NOTHING. If there is something then time is automatically there because something can only be there if it is moving/vibrating at some level or the other. This is plain logic. Hence GOD did not create time in an absolute sense. Actually time isnt even something to be created. It is always there just not necessarily in the form we know it. As for GOD having always existed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE BUT your explanation is not. Ive made this very clear. the statement "GOD is not limited by time" does not make any sense. What do you want to say by that? Time in the absolute sense is not somehting to be created but a measurement. However relatively since there can be time dilation we can say that the time of this particular universe is differen than another ones implying that the cause and effect relationship is different. But if there is no time at all then that place is EMPTY, NOTHINGNESS. Are you saying GOD is, GOD forbid, nothing???!!

Again, you logic is completely unreasonable. Time is a definate object, and it is displayed by the measurement of everything else. It's just like gravity. It's a definate object and force, just like everything else in existence... Now, before God, there was NO EXISTENCE, and therefore, there was no time, space, or gravitational formation. Time is the measurement of a beginning to an ending of any specified object. So, since God has no beginning or ending, He is not limited by time, space, or existence. He's not "nothing"; personally, I prefer the terms "absolute" and "eternal"... You're looking at this with the mentality that God is an object, and this is WRONG. God is not an object at all, He is the absolute cause of all existence. Objects can't exist without the sustainment of time and space, which is why they all have beginnings, endings, and limitations. But since God is not an object, none of these factors apply to Him...

The concept that God exceeds time is shown in the reading as well, and it's pointed out in descriptions of God's concept of a "day". A day to Him can refer to a literal 24-hour day, a year, seven years, a thousand years, 50,000 years, and even a virtually indefinate period of time. So, since a day can literally be any or all of these time periods, He is able to conform time to His designation, making it an object that He is the master of. This is only logical... The belief in an absolute, eternal, almighty god implies the concept of His dominance over everything else, including external forces like time, space, matter, and energy. This might not always seem logical from a theoretical view, since science says that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed; but if God is the creator and sustainer of everything in existence, then that means He created these forces and properties as well...

JK- Listen bro this is an absolutely irrational argument because int eh same way Hindus can say that their gods surpass all our rational concepts so how could you prove them wrong? This is no argument at all especially when theres a very logical explanation at hand which does not degrade GOD in the least whilst at the same time proving His existence.

You're making God subject to time, which is wrong. Time is the measurement of a specified object from beginning to end. Now, you can't use time to measure God's existence because He has ALWAYS been there, and therefore, He doesn't have a noneternal existence. Space is the measurement of a specified object from one place to another; but since God is everywhere, and He was present when there was absolute nothingness, you can't measure His existence in space either. Therefore, God is not an object, He is an absolute, eternal force and being who is not limited or hindered by anything. This is the solidary belief in monotheism. Relating anything to God in the sense of imposing limitations to His being or control amounts to idol worship...

Peace,

Ahmad

jonny_k

Peace "ahmad bilal",

Peace "Jonny_K",

Again, you logic is completely unreasonable. Time is a definate object, and it is displayed by the measurement of everything else. It's just like gravity. It's a definate object and force, just like everything else in existence... Now, before God, there was NO EXISTENCE, and therefore, there was no time, space, or gravitational formation.

JK- Since when are we talking about before GOD? 2ndly time is not an object. It is a measurement or an attribute formed by particles in motion i.e. no motion, no time, nothing.

Time is the measurement of a beginning to an ending of any specified object. So, since God has no beginning or ending, He is not limited by time, space, or existence. He's not "nothing"; personally, I prefer the terms "absolute" and "eternal"... You're looking at this with the mentality that God is an object, and this is WRONG. God is not an object at all, He is the absolute cause of all existence. Objects can't exist without the sustainment of time and space, which is why they all have beginnings, endings, and limitations. But since God is not an object, none of these factors apply to Him...

JK- Your now creating a fanatasy. This does not prove or show anything. GOD does not have an end because theres an infinite amount of energy from which He sustains Himself i.e Light upon Light. Heres an excellent explanation from the Quran itself
GOD is the light of the heavens and the earth. The allegory of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it. Light upon light. GOD guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). GOD thus cites the parables for the people. GOD is fully aware of all things.

The concept that God exceeds time is shown in the reading as well, and it's pointed out in descriptions of God's concept of a "day". A day to Him can refer to a literal 24-hour day, a year, seven years, a thousand years, 50,000 years, and even a virtually indefinate period of time. So, since a day can literally be any or all of these time periods, He is able to conform time to His designation, making it an object that He is the master of. This is only logical... The belief in an absolute, eternal, almighty god implies the concept of His dominance over everything else, including external forces like time, space, matter, and energy. This might not always seem logical from a theoretical view, since science says that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed; but if God is the creator and sustainer of everything in existence, then that means He created these forces and properties as well...

JK- The 50,000 verse your talking about is talking about a totally different period i.e. the time it takes the "mnalaaikah" to reach heaven.
The malaaikah, with their reports, climb to Him in a day that equals fifty thousand years.
The Quran says that a day of GOD's is equal to a thousand years of ours not fifty thousand. Theres no mention of infinity there. Your making this up.
And for the last time GOD HAS DOMINACE OVER EVERTYHING. We as a human can have linited control over time too e.g. flying in plane which causdes a very small time dilation of a few ms relative to the ppl on the ground. Same would the case be if we travelled at 99.99999% of light speed. Then those inside tht aircraft wld age slower than the outsiders and in tht way we could manipulate time. Doesnt mean we need to be "out of time" which is illogical. GOD created everything BUT ETERNAL LIGHT which He is Himself as per the Quran.

You're making God subject to time, which is wrong. Time is the measurement of a specified object from beginning to end. Now, you can't use time to measure God's existence because He has ALWAYS been there, and therefore, He doesn't have a noneternal existence. Space is the measurement of a specified object from one place to another; but since God is everywhere, and He was present when there was absolute nothingness, you can't measure His existence in space either. Therefore, God is not an object, He is an absolute, eternal force and being who is not limited or hindered by anything. This is the solidary belief in monotheism. Relating anything to God in the sense of imposing limitations to His being or control amounts to idol worship...

Peace,

Ahmad

JK- Making GOD subject to time is a non issue. It doesnt mean anything since time is a logical necessity for something to be there. And GOD has always been there because as I said an infinite amount of cause and effect have already taken place before the creation of our universe so that necessitates GOD having lways existed so wht is your problem? Neither is GOD hindered by anything but your way of explaining this is nonsensible. How does saying that theres cause and effect and hence time when only GOD was there makes Him limited in any way? He can do anything at any place anytime so what is the point? GOD Bless!

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace "Jonny_K",

JK- Since when are we talking about before GOD? 2ndly time is not an object. It is a measurement or an attribute formed by particles in motion i.e. no motion, no time, nothing.

This entire idea is about God, and again, you're limiting Him to time and existence... You're saying no time, no motion, nothing equals "no God"?! This is idolatrous! You can't use a definative unit of measurement to describe an almighty, eternal being. This is not logical.

JK- Your now creating a fanatasy. This does not prove or show anything. GOD does not have an end because theres an infinite amount of energy from which He sustains Himself i.e Light upon Light. Heres an excellent explanation from the Quran itself
GOD is the light of the heavens and the earth. The allegory of His light is that of a concave mirror behind a lamp that is placed inside a glass container. The glass container is like a bright, pearl-like star. The fuel thereof is supplied from a blessed oil-producing tree, that is neither eastern, nor western. Its oil is almost self-radiating; needs no fire to ignite it. Light upon light. GOD guides to His light whoever wills (to be guided). GOD thus cites the parables for the people. GOD is fully aware of all things.

Okay...? How long has this "light upon light" existed? Light is subject to time and space. According to the theory or relativity, light moves at approximately 186,283 miles per second, and this PHYSICAL OBJECT is the fastest systematic relation known to humanity... So, do you believe that God can't move faster than light? Does God need motion and vibration to survive? Saying so is making Him subject to these factors, and that's polytheistic and blasphemous... It's not hard to realize that this passage was not speaking about literal "light"; it's speaking about an unlimited force and power. Matter and energy, according to physics, can be converted, but it can't be created or destroyed. So, if this is true, is God really the "creator", or is He simply the "converter"?

The bottom line is there was a period when matter and energy DID NOT EXIST, and during this period, which was before the existence of time and space, a system of complete nothingness and nonexistence, there was still the one almighty god who formed the particles that started vibrating, eventually becoming matter and energy, which developed the objects of time and space. Therefore, science in relation to the infinite being (Allah) is wrong, and you can't use finite factors to measure an infinite, absolutely eternal being. It's not possible. It's like asking the mythological question, "How old is God?"

JK- The 50,000 verse your talking about is talking about a totally different period i.e. the time it takes the "mnalaaikah" to reach heaven.
The malaaikah, with their reports, climb to Him in a day that equals fifty thousand years.
The Quran says that a day of GOD's is equal to a thousand years of ours not fifty thousand. Theres no mention of infinity there. Your making this up.
And for the last time GOD HAS DOMINACE OVER EVERTYHING. We as a human can have linited control over time too e.g. flying in plane which causdes a very small time dilation of a few ms relative to the ppl on the ground. Same would the case be if we travelled at 99.99999% of light speed. Then those inside tht aircraft wld age slower than the outsiders and in tht way we could manipulate time. Doesnt mean we need to be "out of time" which is illogical. GOD created everything BUT ETERNAL LIGHT which He is Himself as per the Quran.

It still uses the word "day" to describe these 50,000 years. So, yes, this is still a description of this period of time with God... Also, that Quranic passage says that God is the "light" of the HEAVENS and the EARTH. Therefore, claiming that this light is not created is the same as saying that the heavens and the earth are uncreated, which is FALSE. God created everything.

JK- Making GOD subject to time is a non issue. It doesnt mean anything since time is a logical necessity for something to be there. And GOD has always been there because as I said an infinite amount of cause and effect have already taken place before the creation of our universe so that necessitates GOD having lways existed so wht is your problem? Neither is GOD hindered by anything but your way of explaining this is nonsensible. How does saying that theres cause and effect and hence time when only GOD was there makes Him limited in any way? He can do anything at any place anytime so what is the point?

This is a contradiction, since you just said that time is a "logical necessity" for existence. Obviously, God is present, and He is not subjected to time. God's existence is not based on cause and effect, and saying so is basing something on the existence of God, in a sense saying that something or someone created Him... Like I said, God is not the result of anything, but He is the cause of everything.

Peace,

Ahmad

Bosnian_Thinker

Peace "Jonny_K",

Again, you logic is completely unreasonable. Time is a definate object, and it is displayed by the measurement of everything else. It's just like gravity. It's a definate object and force, just like everything else in existence... Now, before God, there was NO EXISTENCE, and therefore, there was no time, space, or gravitational formation. Time is the measurement of a beginning to an ending of any specified object. So, since God has no beginning or ending, He is not limited by time, space, or existence. He's not "nothing"; personally, I prefer the terms "absolute" and "eternal"... You're looking at this with the mentality that God is an object, and this is WRONG. God is not an object at all, He is the absolute cause of all existence. Objects can't exist without the sustainment of time and space, which is why they all have beginnings, endings, and limitations. But since God is not an object, none of these factors apply to Him...

The concept that God exceeds time is shown in the reading as well, and it's pointed out in descriptions of God's concept of a "day". A day to Him can refer to a literal 24-hour day, a year, seven years, a thousand years, 50,000 years, and even a virtually indefinate period of time. So, since a day can literally be any or all of these time periods, He is able to conform time to His designation, making it an object that He is the master of. This is only logical... The belief in an absolute, eternal, almighty god implies the concept of His dominance over everything else, including external forces like time, space, matter, and energy. This might not always seem logical from a theoretical view, since science says that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed; but if God is the creator and sustainer of everything in existence, then that means He created these forces and properties as well...

You're making God subject to time, which is wrong. Time is the measurement of a specified object from beginning to end. Now, you can't use time to measure God's existence because He has ALWAYS been there, and therefore, He doesn't have a noneternal existence. Space is the measurement of a specified object from one place to another; but since God is everywhere, and He was present when there was absolute nothingness, you can't measure His existence in space either. Therefore, God is not an object, He is an absolute, eternal force and being who is not limited or hindered by anything. This is the solidary belief in monotheism. Relating anything to God in the sense of imposing limitations to His being or control amounts to idol worship...

Peace,

Ahmad

I absolutely agree with you.
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Bosnian_Thinker