All Mighty God?
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Peace "Jonny_K",
This logic is completely unreasonable. Think about the realities of cause and effect. The universe is an object, and it is a direct result of inabsolutes in time and space. Therefore, time and space are also objects. So, who created them?! The answer is "GOD CREATED THEM!" If God created time and space, then He must've existed before time and space, which are infinite, making Him all places at all times. Therefore, in the literal since, God has ALWAYS existed, and He will continue to eternally exist; He is literally "the first and the last", the absolute and eternal... To believe that God is limited by anything is to believe in the existence of more than one god. In other words, if something can limit the almighty being, then that being isn't really "almighty", and there is something greater. Since there is nothing greater than God, then obviously, He isn't limited by anything or anyone else.
You can't base the reasoning of an absolute god on cause and effect. The concepts of cause and effect are limited to space, time, and other finite objects and factors; God surpasses these concepts because He is infinite, and He was therefore present before the institution of cause and effect. There was never a time when God didn't exist, and there is no place where He is not present. So, in this sense, He has no cause, but everything in existence is the effect of His presence.
Peace,
Ahmad
Maybe its just me, but so far Ahmad Bilal makes the most logical arguement against the paradox. sun
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Maybe its just me, but so far Ahmad Bilal makes the most logical arguement against the paradox. sun
I think so too. Ahmad has done very well on this topic.
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I agree with "Jonny_K" here,
time is a measurement developed by humans to measure the passage of motion. It's not something physical or "real" in the sense that it exists independant of human thought and imagination or that it can be manipulated.Actually it is something real. You learned this on the first day of your life. You can take away all the calendars, time measuring systems, and languages in the world, and guess what? You still have time; there is an order in which things occur. If there wasn't, then you could say that time doesn't exist and of course everything would happen at once. However, this universe has time.
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peace Jk
Can you please explain a bit more on what you meant by (Rather GOD is Infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm merged into one over infinite "time". )
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Peace "ahmed bilal",
Sorry for the late replyPeace "Jonny_K",
This entire idea is about God, and again, you're limiting Him to time and existence... You're saying no time, no motion, nothing equals "no God"?! This is idolatrous! You can't use a definative unit of measurement to describe an almighty, eternal being. This is not logical.
JK- This is very logical and if it is not please explain your "logic" behind your claim.
Okay...? How long has this "light upon light" existed? Light is subject to time and space. According to the theory or relativity, light moves at approximately 186,283 miles per second, and this PHYSICAL OBJECT is the fastest systematic relation known to humanity... So, do you believe that God can't move faster than light? Does God need motion and vibration to survive? Saying so is making Him subject to these factors, and that's polytheistic and blasphemous... It's not hard to realize that this passage was not speaking about literal "light"; it's speaking about an unlimited force and power. Matter and energy, according to physics, can be converted, but it can't be created or destroyed. So, if this is true, is God really the "creator", or is He simply the "converter"?
JK- 1st the very first phrase DOES SAY literal light. It is only after tht phrase it begins to talk abt "mathal" i.e. allegory. Coincidence? And energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only shift form and one of its forms are the elementary particles our universe is made of. No. 2 the speed of light is only limited in our universe because of it's laws which also differentiated out of light. If another universe with different laws were to be created/differentiated out of electromagnetism/quantum flux it's own speed in there would be different and so on. So yes if the laws of this universe were to remain unaltered then the max speed is tht of light. It's the same as asking "can GOD fill a jar with more particles, in the same universe, than it's dimensions can hold?" Doesnt make any sense.
The bottom line is there was a period when matter and energy DID NOT EXIST, and during this period, which was before the existence of time and space, a system of complete nothingness and nonexistence, there was still the one almighty god who formed the particles that started vibrating, eventually becoming matter and energy, which developed the objects of time and space. Therefore, science in relation to the infinite being (Allah) is wrong, and you can't use finite factors to measure an infinite, absolutely eternal being. It's not possible. It's like asking the mythological question, "How old is God?"
JK- There was no time when energy did not exist. Energy exists by DEFINITION when ever there is something otherwise there is nothing. Your making stuff up now. Oh and btw in this regard may you please answer this qs "Can GOD create a rock that he cannot Himself lift?" If He cannot youd claim im saying Hes not omnipotent. On the other hand if He can then again He would from that point on not be omnipotent either. The same goes for the rest of your arguments above. think abt it.
It still uses the word "day" to describe these 50,000 years. So, yes, this is still a description of this period of time with God... Also, that Quranic passage says that God is the "light" of the HEAVENS and the EARTH. Therefore, claiming that this light is not created is the same as saying that the heavens and the earth are uncreated, which is FALSE. God created everything.
JK- Man day in Arabic means any "period" or even "stage" not necessarily 24 hr day. Or are you saying that GOD created the heavens and earth in 6 24 hr days or 6GOD daysx1000yrs of ours=6000 yrs?? regarding the creation of light it depends whether you mean the original Light out of which everything differentiated or the light again derived from elementary particles. The latter is created light. The first is not.
This is a contradiction, since you just said that time is a "logical necessity" for existence. Obviously, God is present, and He is not subjected to time. God's existence is not based on cause and effect, and saying so is basing something on the existence of God, in a sense saying that something or someone created Him... Like I said, God is not the result of anything, but He is the cause of everything.
Peace,
Ahmad
JK- the very phrase "subjected to time" does not make any sense. Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of change in relative position. So whenever something is moving or processing or creating theres time. GOD Bless!
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Peace "diem",
I agree with "Jonny_K" here,
time is a measurement developed by humans to measure the passage of motion. It's not something physical or "real" in the sense that it exists independant of human thought and imagination or that it can be manipulated.JK- Exactly but most ppl dont seem to get this. GOD Bless!
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Peace "nimnimak",
peace Jk
Can you please explain a bit more on what you meant by (Rather GOD is Infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm merged into one over infinite "time". )
JK- Sure what i meant is that from all our present knowledge we know that Light is the fastest so the First Intelligence "evolved" before anything else existed. Now if we imaginary went back infinite no of cause and effect in the quantum realm all quantae were randomly distributed. Through an infinite no of chance processes then the Infinite power came to be Who left nothing more upto chance. HOWEVER it should be noted that since an Infinite no of time has thus passed GOD can be claimed to have always existed and there is no contradicton whatsoever. infact it solves all paradoxes and maes the existence of GOD not only possible but causally INEVITABLE as ive mentioned many times before. GOD Bless!
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Peace "BT",
Sorry for the late reply.Actually it is something real. You learned this on the first day of your life. You can take away all the calendars, time measuring systems, and languages in the world, and guess what? You still have time; there is an order in which things occur. If there wasn't, then you could say that time doesn't exist and of course everything would happen at once. However, this universe has time.
JK- Time is a measurement of change in relative position and yes it is real. Nobody is saying it is imaginary but it is a measurement not a thing. regarding order there can be ordered time and non ordered time. Nobody is disputing that but the latter would still be time. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Jonny_K",
JK- This is very logical and if it is not please explain your "logic" behind your claim.
Your statement implies that God is limited by space and time, physical constants. If this is the case (which it isn't), then God is universally subject to these factors. So, where exactly is God? How old is He? These questions CAN'T be answered because God is not subject to these external forces, and therefore, He is all places at all times. Simple.
JK- 1st the very first phrase DOES SAY literal light. It is only after tht phrase it begins to talk abt "mathal" i.e. allegory. Coincidence? And energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only shift form and one of its forms are the elementary particles our universe is made of. No. 2 the speed of light is only limited in our universe because of it's laws which also differentiated out of light. If another universe with different laws were to be created/differentiated out of electromagnetism/quantum flux it's own speed in there would be different and so on. So yes if the laws of this universe were to remain unaltered then the max speed is tht of light. It's the same as asking "can GOD fill a jar with more particles, in the same universe, than it's dimensions can hold?" Doesnt make any sense.
Your implication is unreasonable. According to physics, energy (by definition) can't be created or destroyed; it can only be converted into other forms of energy, such as material substances and particles... Now, realistically, this is CONTRARY to the central belief of monotheism. How is God the creator of everything in existence if He didn't create matter and energy? Doesn't this make these eternal forces "gods" just like Him?! Everything in existence had a beginning at some distinct point in time, everything except God. Not limiting the concept of speed as being relative to light, there's a huge difference in measuring the speed (time) of light and the "speed" of God. In our universe, light is the fastest known thing in existence. So, does this mean that God can't travel faster than the speed of light?! Again, you're placing limitations on His degree of supremacy. He's not limited to any of these factors, and He can manipulate them as He wills.
JK- There was no time when energy did not exist. Energy exists by DEFINITION when ever there is something otherwise there is nothing. Your making stuff up now. Oh and btw in this regard may you please answer this qs "Can GOD create a rock that he cannot Himself lift?" If He cannot youd claim im saying Hes not omnipotent. On the other hand if He can then again He would from that point on not be omnipotent either. The same goes for the rest of your arguments above. think abt it.
This is a completely different concept, and you're making things up now. This is not a paradox, this is a divine reality. Energy exists when there is something, by the finite scientific perspective. So, you're saying that energy is just as old, or older, than God Himself?! This is idolatrous! Based on the scriptures, by the way that He reveals Himself, God is more than just external energy; so, by your conclusion, energy is 'greater than or equal to' the almighty god... I don't know what you think of this, but it doesn't sound very "monotheistic" to me... By definition, God is the ultimate creator of everything, which means He also created matter and energy, time and space. If God didn't create matter and energy, then He is subject to them, which means He has a physical body and manifestation, and He can only be in certain places at certain times. This is completely contradictory to the message in the Qur'aan regarding His might and magnitude...
JK- Man day in Arabic means any "period" or even "stage" not necessarily 24 hr day. Or are you saying that GOD created the heavens and earth in 6 24 hr days or 6GOD daysx1000yrs of ours=6000 yrs?? regarding the creation of light it depends whether you mean the original Light out of which everything differentiated or the light again derived from elementary particles. The latter is created light. The first is not.
Where's your proof of this?! The Qur'aan specifically mentions a period of "six days". Now, does this mean six 24-hour days? Possibly. We don't know. HOW LONG IS A DAY? To us, a day is a 24-hour period where the earth travels the complete distance around the sun. God, though, doesn't live on the earth, and He doesn't measure His timeline by the rotation of our planet and our sun. So, to Him, one day could be a nearly immeasurable period of time; it could range from 24-hours to a million (or more) of our solar years. If it was (hypothetically) based on the distance of our planet and our sun, GUESS WHAT! God is in complete control of our planet and our universe, and He therefore controls the measurement of a day, a month, a year, and so on. These are all relative factors that can be manipulated by Him, by His own will.
JK- the very phrase "subjected to time" does not make any sense. Time is not a thing. It is a measurement of change in relative position. So whenever something is moving or processing or creating theres time.
Your statement contradicts itself. Time is a measurement, and a measurement is an object. Therefore, time is an object, period. You're applying a finite scientific description to an infinite object or being. This is completely illogical... You're implying that God is a certain definate age. So, how old is He? When is His birthdate? Who were His parents?! These are unreasonable questions, and they can't be answered with a scientific description... If time exists as long as an object is moving, processing, or "creating", then what was there BEFORE God created the heavens and the earth? In other words, before the period known as "in the beginning", was there time?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Salaam everyone,
Hey guys,
I'm a muslim that has discovered your site and the "God Only" movement and I'v learned a lot of new things and been able to make my faith stronger. I have a question that I'v been thinking about for a while,If God knows everything that is going to happen, what is the point of creating humans if he knows what they are going to do? What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so whats the point?
My goodness it's a long thread. What a tough question!
God knows when and how the world is going to end. He controls everything, knows the past and future. He aslo says that if it were not for His mercy, all creatures in the heavens and the earth would already be in Hell. Is it possible that His Mercy is so infinite that our written destiny can change during this world, purely out of His infinite Grace? He is almighty, is it possible that He simply left part of our lives still to be written, even though the end and some landmarks are already cast in stone?
I am really scared to even ask such a question, the truth is He alone knows.4522 GOD created the heavens and the earth for a specific purpose, in order to pay each soul for whatever it earned, without the least injustice.
One other thing I would like to say is that for sure hell is not eternal and everyone down the line will go to heaven because God said that even the guilty will pass through "the neddle's eye" (probably a black hole) and hell will end
740 Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.If God says the camel will pass through the needle's eye, it will happen.
I mention this to illustrate that in my opinion, God's mercy is absolutely infinite. He wants us so much to go to heaven, and he delayed hell so much for us.
I will end this post by saying that one quality of a Muslim is to submit totally amd unconditionnally. We don't always have a definite answer for everything. It should never distract us to be God's servants, seeking His infinite Mercy.God bless you.
Pierre
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Peace "Ahmed Bilal",
Peace "Jonny_K",
Your statement implies that God is limited by space and time, physical constants. If this is the case (which it isn't), then God is universally subject to these factors. So, where exactly is God? How old is He? These questions CAN'T be answered because God is not subject to these external forces, and therefore, He is all places at all times. Simple.
JK- GOD is everywhere yes but at any place he is not there in His entirety but in part. The Whole of GOD can never be seen or measured because Hes infinite in size.
Your implication is unreasonable. According to physics, energy (by definition) can't be created or destroyed; it can only be converted into other forms of energy, such as material substances and particles... Now, realistically, this is CONTRARY to the central belief of monotheism. How is God the creator of everything in existence if He didn't create matter and energy? Doesn't this make these eternal forces "gods" just like Him?! Everything in existence had a beginning at some distinct point in time, everything except God. Not limiting the concept of speed as being relative to light, there's a huge difference in measuring the speed (time) of light and the "speed" of God. In our universe, light is the fastest known thing in existence. So, does this mean that God can't travel faster than the speed of light?! Again, you're placing limitations on His degree of supremacy. He's not limited to any of these factors, and He can manipulate them as He wills.
JK- Creation is ultimately a differenatiation process i.e. one type of energy tranforming into another. The speed of light does not have an absolute limit. It is limited because of the laws of this particular universe. GOD can thus move faster if He changed the laws of the universe but He doesnt need to anyways because parts of Him are already everywhere so theres no point 1 and 2ndly GOD's laws are fixed.
This is a completely different concept, and you're making things up now. This is not a paradox, this is a divine reality. Energy exists when there is something, by the finite scientific perspective. So, you're saying that energy is just as old, or older, than God Himself?! This is idolatrous! Based on the scriptures, by the way that He reveals Himself, God is more than just external energy; so, by your conclusion, energy is 'greater than or equal to' the almighty god... I don't know what you think of this, but it doesn't sound very "monotheistic" to me... By definition, God is the ultimate creator of everything, which means He also created matter and energy, time and space. If God didn't create matter and energy, then He is subject to them, which means He has a physical body and manifestation, and He can only be in certain places at certain times. This is completely contradictory to the message in the Qur'aan regarding His might and magnitude...
JK- To say energy is "older" than GOD is not idolatrous because 1) random energy is not intelligent and hence not a being of any sort 2) that was an infinite amount of "time" ago anyways so it was never actually traceable. And by no means is tht inifnite time ago random not then "evolved" energy greater than GOD. So GOD is the creator of every other differentiated entity except eternal Light which He is Himself. As for GOD being subject to anything there needs to be something intelligent. Saying that GOD is subject to light wouldnt make much sense since random light is not yet an intelligent entity. So yes GOD created matter and the energy in turn derived from tht matter but not the eternal Light which He is Himself.
Where's your proof of this?! The Qur'aan specifically mentions a period of "six days". Now, does this mean six 24-hour days? Possibly. We don't know. HOW LONG IS A DAY? To us, a day is a 24-hour period where the earth travels the complete distance around the sun. God, though, doesn't live on the earth, and He doesn't measure His timeline by the rotation of our planet and our sun. So, to Him, one day could be a nearly immeasurable period of time; it could range from 24-hours to a million (or more) of our solar years. If it was (hypothetically) based on the distance of our planet and our sun, GUESS WHAT! God is in complete control of our planet and our universe, and He therefore controls the measurement of a day, a month, a year, and so on. These are all relative factors that can be manipulated by Him, by His own will.
JK- the Quran says GOD's day is like a 1000 years of ours. Hence taking tht the six days refer to GOD's days i made it 6000 of our yrs if "day" is understod in tht way. However "yaum" can mean "periods" and every "yaum" can be different. A certain "yaum" can be 1000s, 1yr, 24hrs, etc etc. tht was my pt. However in the six "yaum" statement "yaum" doesnt mean "periods" at all but rather "stages" as bro Arnold has also explained in one of his articles.
Your statement contradicts itself. Time is a measurement, and a measurement is an object. Therefore, time is an object, period. You're applying a finite scientific description to an infinite object or being. This is completely illogical... You're implying that God is a certain definate age. So, how old is He? When is His birthdate? Who were His parents?! These are unreasonable questions, and they can't be answered with a scientific description... If time exists as long as an object is moving, processing, or "creating", then what was there BEFORE God created the heavens and the earth? In other words, before the period known as "in the beginning", was there time?
JK- NO i said tht GOD is of Infite age. I just said if we were to hypothetically go back INFINITELY in "time" thered be nothing but random fluctuations and after tht infinite "time" had already passed GOD came to be but technically this can termed as GOD always being there anyways. It's just a logical and consitent explanation. Before the heavens and the erath were created there was quantum "time" which we are unable to observe but it is there logically because of cause and effect and the very movement which GOD made in order to create us for lolgically if He didnt do anything i.e. didnt move on one level or the other thered wldnt be anything. GOD Bless!