Are Gospel and Torah in the Quran the ones we know nowadays in the BIBLE?

belH

Salam,

I disagree. Ab literally means the strong one of the house. so literally he is calling God his leader, the one who he depends on, his sustainer, etc.

Okay...Now can you use another word to translate "Ab"; because using Father would give a different meaing.
Now, what is the meaning of the following very simillar words (Father "Ab" and Lord "Rb&quot

Rb Ab

Does the Aramic language have two simillar words as Arabic?

unknownuser

Okay...Now can you use another word to translate "Ab"; because using Father would give a different meaing.

Actually, that's correct. My mistake. handshake

Now, what is the meaning of the following very simillar words (Father "Ab" and Lord "Rb&quot

Rb Ab

Does the Aramic language have two simillar words as Arabic?

and are spelled exactly the same in Aramaic as in Arabic (alif-beyt/ba and ra/rosh-ba/beyt) and have the exact same meanings.
in Aramaic is usually translated as Lord same as with Arabic.
and in aramaic is usually translated as father or ancestor or something similiar, same as in Arabic.

Salam,
Arnab

belH

Actually, that's correct. My mistake. handshake

and are spelled exactly the same in Aramaic as in Arabic (alif-beyt/ba and ra/rosh-ba/beyt) and have the exact same meanings.
in Aramaic is usually translated as Lord same as with Arabic.
and in aramaic is usually translated as father or ancestor or something similiar, same as in Arabic.

Salam,
Arnab

Now; the Word Rb can be used in referance to a Human being as well; for example, Joseph used it to refer to the Lord of Egypt

Now could it be that Jesus used it to refer to the Spirit and not To Allah; all of us know that Jesus was having a hard time when was asked about his Father; and I can Imagin that Mariam told him that it was the Spirit who blew into her, and therefore, the Spirit was the Image of Father for Him.
According to Quran, Jesus is a Spirit from God.
Thus, if Jesus said

I and my father (are) one/united compassionate (the root word literally means to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior)

Thus, He means I and the Spirit.

What do you think?

unknownuser

Now; the Word Rb can be used in referance to a Human being as well; for example, Joseph used it to refer to the Lord of Egypt

Now could it be that Jesus used it to refer to the Spirit and not To Allah; all of us know that Jesus was having a hard time when was asked about his Father; and I can Imagin that Mariam told him that it was the Spirit who blew into her, and therefore, the Spirit was the Image of Father for Him.
According to Quran, Jesus is a Spirit from God.
Thus, if Jesus said

I and my father (are) one/united compassionate (the root word literally means to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior)

Thus, He means I and the Spirit.

What do you think?

Salam,
I don't see that it would fit, because there are many places where Jesus refers to God as father through out the gospels. Some times this is in prayer or other instances where it is very clear that God is being referred to.

Salam,
Arnab

belH

Salam,
I don't see that it would fit, because there are many places where Jesus refers to God as father through out the gospels. Some times this is in prayer or other instances where it is very clear that God is being referred to.

Salam,
Arnab

Peace arnab

You mean as the Sustainer and ot as Father & Do not scare me; D
Salam

unknownuser

Peace arnab

You mean as the Sustainer and ot as Father & Do not scare me;
Salam

The word father can be used metaphorically in English and if one keeps this in mind, then there will be no misunderstanding.

Salam,
Arnab

belH

The word father can be used metaphorically in English and if one keeps this in mind, then there will be no misunderstanding.

Salam,
Arnab

Peace Arnab

The word Father means the following in dictionary

Main Entry 1fa?ther
Pronunciation \f?-thr
Function noun
Etymology Middle English fader, from Old English f?der; akin to Old High German fater father, Latin pater, Greek patr
Date before 12th century
1 a a man who has begotten a child ; also sire 3 bcapitalized (1) god 1 (2) the first person of the Trinity

Now, I think using the word Father will lead to a Great Sin.

Peace

Bigmo

Son of God is a nickname given by his followers in recognition of his miraculous birth. Semitic society always named a person as the son of his father. Since he had no human father his followers called him son of God. The disbelievers called him a bastard.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-

4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

unknownuser

Peace Arnab

The word Father means the following in dictionary

Main Entry 1fa?ther
Pronunciation \f?-thr
Function noun
Etymology Middle English fader, from Old English f?der; akin to Old High German fater father, Latin pater, Greek patr
Date before 12th century
1 a a man who has begotten a child ; also sire 3 bcapitalized (1) god 1 (2) the first person of the Trinity

Now, I think using the word Father will lead to a Great Sin.

Peace

Salam,

Allah is also said as having a hand, a side, walking (implies having legs and feet), talking (implies having a mouth and by extension a face) and many more.

Allah is above limitation.

IF we say that Allah is not father, mother, king, capable of talking, walking, having a side, then that in itself, is a limitation.
God is beyond limits.

I say "father" and expect it to be understood as the best one word English translation available.
It is best to understand all the characteristics of the semitic words used and to consider English translations unrestricted to their literal meaning.

Salam,
Arnab

the_seeker

Some say Jesus, some say God.
I say it doesn't matter the Quran says both are correct

5111

And when I revealed to the disciples, saying, Believe in Me and My messenger, they said We believe and bear witness that we submit (ourselves).

The root word amen (alif-meem-nun) means faith/belief/to be strengthened/secure etc in all the semitic languages. One English word does not really give the true depth of meanint that the root represents.

As for saying it at the end of prayers, this is tradition, not a command. I see nothing wrong with it.

We are to believe in Allah and all his messengers. Some say Adam was a messenger and some say that he was not. I personally think he was, but this is a subject of debate.

The root that is translated as good in John 1011, Luke 1819 and Mark 1018 is towb and has the same meaning in all the semitic languages good/beneficial

And, no it would be a contradiction. In Luke 1819 and Mark 1018 you have a man approaching Jesus and trying to exault him by calling him good teacher. This person went on to not only exalt Jesus but himself in this passage. Jesus (always speaking in metaphors and speech that made a point) tells this man that there is none Good except the ONE God. In order to help this man see the error of his ways, is how I see it.

Raheem is not used in John 1030....see how confusing English translations can be and why I say that none are accurate? The root word used is khann and briefly means as I stated before compassionate (the root word literally means to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior).

That being said, we all have the capability to be raheem (merciful/compassionate) and it can be a human attribute as well as an attribute of Allah. The believers strive to always be compassionate and merciful in everything they do.

I do not agree with those who say that verses of the Quran should be taken out. To me this is a very serious transgression and the action of a disbeliever not the action of a believer.

Salam,
Arnab

peace arnab,

thanks.

ramon

Jafar

Son of God is a nickname given by his followers in recognition of his miraculous birth. Semitic society always named a person as the son of his father. Since he had no human father his followers called him son of God. The disbelievers called him a bastard.

Peace Bigmo,

I think you're mistaken..
Son Of God is an english translation from "Ben Elohym" in Hebrew.
"Ben Elohym" (singular) is a metaphorical 'title' within Jewish Culture, which means "God's man".

The plural form; "Beney Elohym" was translated as "Sons Of God" in English which actually means "God's People".

Jesus himself clearly clarify what "Son Of God" and "Sons Of God" actually means

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God (Hebrew Beney Elohym)"
Matthew 59

Even David was also entitled as "Son Of God"..

"YHVH had said onto me (David), thou art my Son ; this day have I begotten thee."
Psalm 27

There is huge difference in meanings between Jesus/David's "Son Of God" within Jewish Culture and Hercules Son Of Zeus within Pagan/Greek culture.
The misunderstanding came when the bible gets exported to (back then) the pagan worlds. (Europe, Egypt, Arab)

They interpret Jesus Son Of God is the same as Hercules Son Of Zeus or Horus Son Of Isis..
Thus God had an "offspring" which of course also a God...

Salam / Peace

Jafar

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However, it does not make it factual.

Then what is the fact from your viewpoint?
Gospel Of John was originally written in Aramaic????
Kindly shows me where it is!

Salam / Peace

unknownuser

Peace Bigmo,

I think you're mistaken..
Son Of God is an english translation from "Ben Elohym" in Hebrew.
"Ben Elohym" (singular) is a metaphorical 'title' within Jewish Culture, which means "God's man".

The plural form; "Beney Elohym" was translated as "Sons Of God" in English which actually means "God's People".

Jesus himself clearly clarify what "Son Of God" and "Sons Of God" actually means

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God (Hebrew Beney Elohym)"
Matthew 59

Even David was also entitled as "Son Of God"..

"YHVH had said onto me (David), thou art my Son ; this day have I begotten thee."
Psalm 27

There is huge difference in meanings between Jesus/David's "Son Of God" within Jewish Culture and Hercules Son Of Zeus within Pagan/Greek culture.
The misunderstanding came when the bible gets exported to (back then) the pagan worlds. (Europe, Egypt, Arab)

They interpret Jesus Son Of God is the same as Hercules Son Of Zeus or Horus Son Of Isis..
Thus God had an "offspring" which of course also a God...

Salam / Peace

The root word ben literally means a builder.....it has come to mean son as the builder of the family name. A beni Eloheem is a "builder of God"

Then what is the fact from your viewpoint?
Gospel Of John was originally written in Aramaic????
Kindly shows me where it is!

Salam / Peace

www.peshitta.org
The only thing I recommend on the site is the Aramaic.
They use Syriac instead of Aramaic to translate the Gospels and the translation is utter nonsense in most cases.

Salam,
Arnab

Jafar

www.peshitta.org
The only thing I recommend on the site is the Aramaic.
They use Syriac instead of Aramaic to translate the Gospels and the translation is utter nonsense in most cases.

Here is the hard evidence of the oldest remnants of Gospel Of John
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52
It is originally written in Greek (Not Aramaic).

The Gospel Of John within the Peshita is a translation from Greek to Aramaic.

Someone has wrote an excellent review on Gospel Of John which I tend to agree..
http//www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/gospel_john.html

In Summary The Gospel Of John is

Originally written in Greek.
Anti Jewish
Show strong influence of Hellenism concept and paradigm (e.g. LOGOS)
Very distinct compared to the synoptic gospels (mark,matt,luke)
Written as early as 100 AD
Most probably written by a pagan/greek convert to christian.
Thus not suprisingly it is also the most popular and oft-referenced gospel by the pagan christians (which form the majority of today christians)

Salam / Peace

unknownuser

Here is the hard evidence of the oldest remnants of Gospel Of John
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52
It is originally written in Greek (Not Aramaic).

The Gospel Of John within the Peshita is a translation from Greek to Aramaic.

Someone has wrote an excellent review on Gospel Of John which I tend to agree..
http//www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/gospel_john.html

In Summary The Gospel Of John is

Originally written in Greek.
Anti Jewish
Show strong influence of Hellenism concept and paradigm (e.g. LOGOS)
Very distinct compared to the synoptic gospels (mark,matt,luke)
Written as early as 100 AD
Most probably written by a pagan/greek convert to christian.
Thus not suprisingly it is also the most popular and oft-referenced gospel by the pagan christians (which form the majority of today christians)

Salam / Peace

Salam,
Again, all of the above is your opinion.

This is a brief overview (not a complete explaination) of why I believe in the Aramaic Primacy
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_Primacy

Salam,
Arnab

herbman

Appart from the fact that there are translation problem as mentionned by Arnab, don't you really think that the writing style of the Bible cleary shows that it is a man made scripture.
I agree the source is divine but saying "The Bible is word of God" is pretty hard to accept. By reading it we clearly see that the authors are men.

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo,

I think you're mistaken..
Son Of God is an english translation from "Ben Elohym" in Hebrew.
"Ben Elohym" (singular) is a metaphorical 'title' within Jewish Culture, which means "God's man".

The plural form; "Beney Elohym" was translated as "Sons Of God" in English which actually means "God's People".

Jesus himself clearly clarify what "Son Of God" and "Sons Of God" actually means

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God (Hebrew Beney Elohym)"
Matthew 59

Even David was also entitled as "Son Of God"..

"YHVH had said onto me (David), thou art my Son ; this day have I begotten thee."
Psalm 27

There is huge difference in meanings between Jesus/David's "Son Of God" within Jewish Culture and Hercules Son Of Zeus within Pagan/Greek culture.
The misunderstanding came when the bible gets exported to (back then) the pagan worlds. (Europe, Egypt, Arab)

They interpret Jesus Son Of God is the same as Hercules Son Of Zeus or Horus Son Of Isis..
Thus God had an "offspring" which of course also a God...

Salam / Peace

But Jesus and his disciples spoke in Aramaic.

herbman

About the Bible

I am not expert in Bible, Gospel and Torah, but as there are mentioned in Quran, I question myself.

The so called "Bible King James version", the one most used nowadays is the Bible with the 5th majeur revision!

The red letter Bible is a Bible where all what Jesus says is written in red. This Bible still exist and 21 of the 27 books doesn't have any red mark!!!

So I think the Bible we know today is not the Injeel.

source Ahmed Deedat