Hajj are months well known!!
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The text from lisaan la-arab can be roughly read as follows
the moon, named in that it appears & is visible/apparent;
The above deontes the first visible moon, or the new moon.
& (it is) said when visible/apparent & is near to being complete.
The above denotes the moon when it is near to being full. This rules out the invention of "full moon".
As v can see, new moon is included in ibn manzurs work, while full moon has been left out. The same is the observation of lane, who has drawn mainly from taj alarus & lisaan alarab. Check out the following thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598094.0
Moreover, the word for full moon in lisaan alarab & lanes is b-d-r
From lisaan alarab
The usage of badr as against shahr is apparent.
I had a discussion with a christian (a self-confessed puppy from the crone kennel) regarding hajj in islaam & christianty a while back, & when I asked him proof for his claim, he came up with something like lisaan alarab says it is moon when nearly full (which I have already discussed). On further probing, he referred me to this website & to studyquran.org. I have gone throught this in the thread I referenced above.
Interestingly, ibn manzur was a sunni scholar, which made the appeal by crone's puppy to lisaan alarab a source of much entertainment. Inventions aside, the application of the word shahr, obtained from old south arabic & qatabanian, shows the following possibilities
1.announce/proclaim (likely underived)
Relevant derivatives
- new moon
3.first day of the month
4.month
I always make it a point to ask non-muslims for proof; & they never come up with anything, as demonstrated by that christian who could not make out "nearly full" from "full".
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb ala'aalmaeen
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& (it is) said when visible/apparent & is near to being complete.
The above denotes the moon when it is near to being full. This rules out the invention of "full moon".
As v can see, ?new moon? is included in ibn manzur?s work, while ?full moon? has been left out. The same is the observation of lane, who has drawn mainly from taj alarus & lisaan alarab. Check out the following thread
In fact, Taj al3aruus maintains (moon) and attributes (new moon ) to Ibnu-l-Atheer (and explains what this would mean in "to fast the shahr" by saying He meant the beginnng and the end (I think he wanted to accommodate both waxing and weaning crescents). But he (e.i T Al arous) continues And the shahr is the moon for its being public/known and for being evident.
This is what Taj al- 3aruus says under sheen haa raa
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The main thing is that it's so called shahr for it being publicly known/observed. This negates crescent and badr (which, according to lexicons, is so called because it appears before sunset badara to rush, hurry, set out without delay).Language is logic. I wonder why a crescent would be called "shahr" when it's neither visible nor obvious. This is shown from the timing of "Ramadan" every year no agreement at all. So how is it "obvious" and "publicly known"?
Moreover, the quraan already mentioned hilaal in the plural (ahilla), so the word is there, and is not related to fasting but to hajj.I had a discussion with a christian (a self-confessed puppy from the crone kennel)
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which made the appeal by crone's puppy to lisaan alarabPlease explain the underlined phrases.
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samia-
First off Do u understand that "nearly full" & "full" are mutually exclusive concepts? It's a very basic thingy, & I don't expect other than a "yes" for an answer. -)
-In fact, Taj al3aruus maintains (moon) and attributes (new moon ) to Ibnu-l-Atheer (and explains what this would mean in "to fast the shahr" by saying He meant the beginnng and the end (I think he wanted to accommodate both waxing and weaning crescents). But he (e.i T Al arous) continues And the shahr is the moon for its being public/known and for being evident.
Not that I trust what u write, but it is doesn't make a difference hereabout. Read & absorb this, before replying
Lisaan alarab is a thirteenth century work, & lane's lexicon is an nineteenth century work. In between the two u have taj alarus, which is an eighteenth century work.
The fact remains that while they have included "new moon" as a possible meaning, they have excluded "full moon". (Refer to my "first off" question). Moreover, badr is the word for "full moon". Ergo, among shahr's possible derivatives "new moon" is included, & "full moon" is excluded.
As for the the word "shahr" & antiquity of shahr as "new moon," there is enough evidence in old south arabic & qatabanian, like I have already remarked. Please do some reading rather than conjecturing.
-Please explain the underlined phrases.
thegod - I had a discussion with a christian (a self-confessed puppy from the crone kennel) regarding hajj in islaam & christianty a while back, & when I asked him proof for his claim, he came up with something like lisaan alarab says it is moon when nearly full (which I have already discussed). On further probing, he referred me to this website & to studyquran.org. I have gone throught this in the thread I referenced above.
I believe u were present at that thread, along with irrelevant & misleading comments.
Are u sensitive to the description "a sad non-muslim puppy from crone's stable"? If no, why did u underline it?
A remark -- Please produce evidence for "shahr" = full moon, rather than empty rhetoric.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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thegod - Are u sensitive to the description "a sad non-muslim puppy from crone's stable"? If no, why did u underline it?
A remark -- Please produce evidence for "shahr" = full moon, rather than empty rhetoric.
The above should read
Are u sensitive to the description "a sad non-muslim puppy from crone's kennel"? If no, why did u underline it?
A remark -- Please produce evidence for "shahr" = full moon, rather than empty rhetoric.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace everyone,
What is 100% certain and definite is that "shahr" CANNOT be the new moon, because the new moon is neither visible nor apparent and this is undisputable.
Those who claim it is the new moon have not produced any evidence whatsoever for that claim. They should produce proof of "shahr" = new moon rather than empty rhetoric.
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Peace sister Samia,
Thank you for your excellent input.
In fact, Taj al3aruus maintains (moon) and attributes (new moon ) to Ibnu-l-Atheer (and explains what this would mean in "to fast the shahr" by saying He meant the beginnng and the end (I think he wanted to accommodate both waxing and weaning crescents).
No, it doesn't attribute "new moon" to Ibn Al-Atheer. It attributes the meaning of "hilal", which means "crescent" in general, both waxing and waning. So the fact remains that no one ever said that "shahr" means "new moon" and this is a completely made-up meaning.
On the other hand, everyone except the most ignorant knows that the actual full-moon lasts only a second and could occur when it is below the horizon. So in general when one sees a "full-moon" it is actually the 99.99% full moon, in other words the "nearly full" moon.
But he (e.i T Al arous) continues And the shahr is the moon for its being public/known and for being evident.
This is what Taj al- 3aruus says under sheen haa raa
.
The main thing is that it's so called shahr for it being publicly known/observed. This negates crescent and badr (which, according to lexicons, is so called because it appears before sunset badara to rush, hurry, set out without delay).
Language is logic. I wonder why a crescent would be called "shahr" when it's neither visible nor obvious. This is shown from the timing of "Ramadan" every year no agreement at all. So how is it "obvious" and "publicly known"?
Moreover, the quraan already mentioned hilaal in the plural (ahilla), so the word is there, and is not related to fasting but to hajj.You are exactly right. Notice the association between ""/obvious and " "/nearly full. This clearly further tells us that in the earlier meaning when "shahr" is described as being the "obvious" and "publicly known" moon, the phase implied is the full-moon. This is also further confirmed by looking at the etymology of the derivatives of "shahr" which refer to things such as a "fat woman" and "a pregnant woman about to give birth (whose belly is at its biggest)" and the "bright white color" of flowers. All this further confirms the meaning of full-moon.
Peace,
Ayman
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The underived meaning of shahr appears to be "announce/make public". From this, v have the new moon, which is the announcing of the moon after the moonless night. Also, since the new moon marks the the completion of a cycle, "shahr" takes the meaning of a month, which is its common application in arabic.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
salaam,
a cycle / cercle per definition has no beginning and no end. So a "marker" (be it new moon or full moon) can only be a marker because one decides it.
lk
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elke-a cycle / cercle per definition has no beginning and no end.
A cycle is a series of events that recur (in the same order).
The "new" moon is the marker because (it follows the "moonless" night, & it is the beginning of a "new" cycle. The reason shahr has been applied to the new moon is that it announces (underived meaning of shahr) the moon after the moonless night. Because the new moon marks the beginning of a month, shahr also denotes the same.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Are u sensitive to the description "a sad non-muslim puppy from crone's kennel"? If no, why did u underline it?
A remark -- Please produce evidence for "shahr" = full moon, rather than empty rhetoric.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameenOf course I am sensitive to the disrespect you show to those who discuss with you and to the back-biting. Definitely not the manners of a "Muslim/muslim" however you understand it. This person seems quite honest in what he said, whether you agree or not is irrelevant and does not give you the right to call him names. Grow up.
It does not matter what shahr means. It definitely does not mean "new moon". This expression does not even exist in Arabic.
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samia-Of course I am sensitive to the disrespect you show to those who discuss with you
Don't try to act the part of an agony aunt. A sad puppy who appears only to spout lies & irrelevant comments & then disappears, & keeps repeating this cycle, does not merit any other description. & this is exactly what that sad puppy does.
-and to the back-biting.
Don't let desperation make a brazen liar out of u, given to unproved allegations. I call him a "sad puppy from crone's kennel" in his face, & he loves every bit of it; have I stopped short of pulling u up when u invent or pass irrelevant comments? Is that the reason why u are acting so desperate?
-Definitely not the manners of a "Muslim/muslim" however you understand it. This person seems quite honest in what he said, whether you agree or not is irrelevant and does not give you the right to call him names. Grow up.
Who gives two hoots to a frustrated nobody who spouts lies & unproved allegations. Do u also, like him, chase crone's rejected hypothesis?
-It does not matter what shahr means.
Now what does that mean?
It may not matter to u, but to muslims every word of the quraan is matters.
-It definitely does not mean "new moon". This expression does not even exist in Arabic.
Who cares what some sad non-muslim puppy says, or what u say. Prove what the word means, rather than issuing blanket statements.
A remark -- Don't let ur emotions make u underline whatever u are sensitive to, nor act like some spiteful comic character. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'alaameen
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2197 The Pilgrimage months are made known. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
"Three times a year you are to celebrate a hag to me." (Exodus 2314)
"Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord God. (Exodus 2317)
"Hag" is being translated as "feast", "festival" or "pilgrimage festival".
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"Three times a year you are to celebrate a hag to me." (Exodus 2314)
"Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord God. (Exodus 2317)
"Hag" is being translated as "feast", "festival" or "pilgrimage festival".
So should we take the pilgrimage details from the Torah?
I mean there can be only one house and one hajj for all believers.
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It's from the OT - not the Torah. Check Exodus - has a lot about "hag".
Actually, if that's from the book of "Exodus" (i.e. Shemot), then it IS from the Torah. The Torah consists of the Hebrew Bible's first 5 (or in some cases 7) books, listed in the current translations from Genesis to Deuteronomy...
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chagag
khaw-gag'
A primitive root (compare H2283, H232; properly to move in a circle, that is, (specifically) to march in a sacred procession, to observe a festival; by implication to be giddy - celebrate, dance, (keep, hold) a (solemn) feast (holiday), reel to and fro.Doesn't help much.
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chagag
khaw-gag'
A primitive root (compare H2283, H232; properly to move in a circle, that is, (specifically) to march in a sacred procession, to observe a festival; by implication to be giddy - celebrate, dance, (keep, hold) a (solemn) feast (holiday), reel to and fro.Doesn't help much.
Moving in a circle is particularly interesting. That what the Muslims do. D
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The root literally means revolve. Doesn't mean around a stationary object, though. Jews just march, wave palm leaves, where ever they are at to hold a religious celebration.
EDIT
Jewish translations of the Bible sometimes render it as sacrifice. Dunno why.
Exodus 51 And afterwards, Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharaoh, "So said the Lord God of Israel, 'Send out My people, and let them sacrifice to Me in the desert.' "
But then
1214
And this day shall be for you as a memorial, and you shall celebrate it as a festival for the Lord; throughout your generations, you shall celebrate it as an everlasting statute.