A Question About Jinns
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Ayman argued very convincingly that the Jinns are fantasies (creativity) in part 2 of his article titled "How Did It Come To This?", but I can't see how understanding Jinns as fantasies works in 3414 which says
- So when We decreed on him death, nothing indicated to them his death except a mover of the earth eating his staff. So when he fell, it was revealed to the fantasies that had they known the hidden, they wouldn't have stayed in the degrading suffering.
Why did the fantasies learn of Solomon's death only after he fell to the ground? Shouldn't Solomon's brain activity have ceased the instant he died or shortly thereafter? How did they continue to undergo their suffering even after Solomon's death if they were indeed the creative part of his mind?
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Ayman argued very convincingly that the Jinns are fantasies (creativity) in part 2 of his article titled "How Did It Come To This?", but I can't see how understanding Jinns as fantasies works in 3414 which says
- So when We decreed on him death, nothing indicated to them his death except a mover of the earth eating his staff. So when he fell, it was revealed to the fantasies that had they known the hidden, they wouldn't have stayed in the degrading suffering.
Why did the fantasies learn of Solomon's death only after he fell to the ground? Shouldn't Solomon's brain activity have ceased the instant he died or shortly thereafter? How did they continue to undergo their suffering even after Solomon's death if they were indeed the creative part of his mind?
Another freind said jinns are jews ???
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Peace Supernaut,
Ayman argued very convincingly that the Jinns are fantasies (creativity) in part 2 of his article titled "How Did It Come To This?", but I can't see how understanding Jinns as fantasies works in 3414 which says
- So when We decreed on him death, nothing indicated to them his death except a mover of the earth eating his staff. So when he fell, it was revealed to the fantasies that had they known the hidden, they wouldn't have stayed in the degrading suffering.
Why did the fantasies learn of Solomon's death only after he fell to the ground? Shouldn't Solomon's brain activity have ceased the instant he died or shortly thereafter? How did they continue to undergo their suffering even after Solomon's death if they were indeed the creative part of his mind?
There are only certain places where those meanings (i.e. "jinn"=fantasy) would actually fit. For example
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers. (6130)
If jinn meant "fantasy", this would imply that our fantasies receive messengers from among the fantasies, and this is not logical.
We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He was/became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute! (1850)
Satan is here described among the angels, and this makes it illogical for him to be a fantasy after the scripture verifies his reality. A real person can't be or become a fantasy.
No human ever touched them, nor a jinn. (5574)
If jinns are simply fantasies, then this verse would be illogical, since fantasies can't physically touch anything or anyone. There are other examples as well that show the concept to be more logical if jinns were actually a separate group of people/separate species of beings, not imaginary creatures.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad Bilal,
Peace Supernaut,
There are only certain places where those meanings (i.e. "jinn"=fantasy) would actually fit. For example
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers. (6130)
If jinn meant "fantasy", this would imply that our fantasies receive messengers from among the fantasies, and this is not logical.
You're right. I can't see how "Jinn" in 6130 can be understood as "Fantasies".
We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He was/became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute! (1850)
Satan is here described among the angels, and this makes it illogical for him to be a fantasy after the scripture verifies his reality. A real person can't be or become a fantasy.
Satan wasn't an angel; Satan was a controller (which is an accurate translation of Malaika).
No human ever touched them, nor a jinn. (5574)
If jinns are simply fantasies, then this verse would be illogical, since fantasies can't physically touch anything or anyone. There are other examples as well that show the concept to be more logical if jinns were actually a separate group of people/separate species of beings, not imaginary creatures.
Peace,
Ahmad
Perhaps when the great reading says "No Jinn ever touched them", it means "The human mind can't grasp such a concept". You should read Ayman's article. You can read it at http//www.free-minds.org/ayman
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Peace Ahmad Bilal,
You're right. I can't see how "Jinn" in 6130 can be understood as "Fantasies".
Satan wasn't an angel; Satan was a controller (which is an accurate translation of Malaika).
Perhaps when the great reading says "No Jinn ever touched them", it means "The human mind can't grasp such a concept". You should read Ayman's article. You can read it at http//www.free-minds.org/ayman
Fantasies". ??? that is Yousaf ali translation, i had A copy of Quran with yousaf ali translation i did not like it and then i left it in a mosque.
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Peace
What does it mean to you when you say Satan was a controller? He was a controller of what?
As for Jinns, it seem to be very clear from Al-Quran that they are creatures, which share some of our characteristics... When we read Surah Al-Jinn, it says a group of Jinns were passing by and they heard the Quran being recited and they responded to it in a positive manner... So they have the ability to hear, think and reflect, detect the truth and formulate an opinion on issues... Same qualities that we have as humans... However, we should always focus on the CLEAR verses and not try to force interpretation and see things which are not there...
May Allah guide us all...
Regards
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Assalaam Alaikum
If you wish to understand who and where are the 'Jinn', just go to the Quran.....
(To the righteous soul will be said.) "O / Ya ayyatuha / soul / an-nafsu / , in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
Who and What is Allah speaking to?
It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him. for We are nearer to him than the jugular vein.
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Assalaam Alaikum
If you wish to understand who and where are the 'Jinn', just go to the Quran.....
(To the righteous soul will be said.) "O / Ya ayyatuha / soul / an-nafsu / , in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
Who and What is Allah speaking to?
It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him. for We are nearer to him than the jugular vein.
am i to understand that jinn in your mind is our black nafis, our own dark side. if it is, i must disagree for many people who have been in contact with them say otherwise,
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Assalaam Alaikum @anna
Perhaps I was'nt clear....
(To the righteous soul will be said.) "O / Ya ayyatuha / soul / an-nafsu / , in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
Who and What is Allah speaking to?
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Assalaam Alaikum @anna
Perhaps I was'nt clear....
(To the righteous soul will be said.) "O / Ya ayyatuha / soul / an-nafsu / , in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
Who and What is Allah speaking to?
im sorry, i really dont know what you are trying to say , i have read the ayat before it and after it,what does our spirit our soul have anything to do with jinn
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Peace Supernaut,
Satan wasn't an angel; Satan was a controller (which is an accurate translation of Malaika).
Even though "controller" is a more accurate translation of the Arabic word "malayka", from the scriptures, it is scripturally referring to the angelic beings, not those who physically control things. Indeed, Allah is the One who is in control of all things, and He is the controller. Satan (Iblis) was among the angelic beings, and he became a jinn.
Perhaps when the great reading says "No Jinn ever touched them", it means "The human mind can't grasp such a concept". You should read Ayman's article. You can read it at http//www.free-minds.org/ayman
I read Ayman's article, and it is incorrect in terms of an accurate translation of that verse. 5574 is a continuation of the previous verses, and after each one, the question arises, "Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?" This is followed by the statement
They relax on green carpets, in beautiful surroundings. (5576)
Well, obviously this verse isn't speaking about jinns or about the human mind. It's speaking about the spouses/mates mentioned in 5570. So, in this case, "jinn" can't be referring to a "fantasy" since the verse is speaking about a physical touching.
Peace,
Ahmad
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im sorry, i really dont know what you are trying to say , i have read the ayat before it and after it,what does our spirit our soul have anything to do with jinn
The Quran is designed to speak to our Nafs.....Soul
Thus when you read Sura Al-Jinn 72, Allah is speaking to your nafs, your Jinn
Qul Uhiya ilayya annahu istamaAAa nafarun mina aljinni faqaloo inna samiAAna quranan AAajaban
Uhiya ilayya = ?it is occurring to me, I am inspired, the idea is suggesting itself?
Its becoming apparent to 'You', that the Jinn that is with You HEAR = annahu istamaAAa nafarun mina aljinni
istamaAAa(perfect verb, 3rd person, Verb Form VIII) means TO HEAR/LISTEN; he heard or listened, to pay attention, to hear, to recite, listen secretly
nafarun mina aljinni
Nafar(un) (perfect tense, 3rd person, masculine, SINGULAR) means person, individual, party NOT less than 3
The Jinn, Yourself and Angels recording...are reflecting upon the Quran
Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.
Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).
You, Jinn & Angels are bearing witness to the Quran and its instruction = faqaloo inna samiAAna quranan AAajaban
?It is occurring to YOU that as a party / nafarun we are hearing/ samiAAna with Jinn, the Quran beautiful and we are pleased / AAajaban?
'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein. we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.
Im not sure how someone else has derived that 'Jinn' is a 'fantasy, cant understand how they came to that conclusion.
When Allah is speaking directly to our Jinn in Sura Al-Jinn 72.
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Peace everyone,
Ayman argued very convincingly that the Jinns are fantasies (creativity) in part 2 of his article titled "How Did It Come To This?", but I can't see how understanding Jinns as fantasies works in 3414 which says
- So when We decreed on him death, nothing indicated to them his death except a mover of the earth eating his staff. So when he fell, it was revealed to the fantasies that had they known the hidden, they wouldn't have stayed in the degrading suffering.
Why did the fantasies learn of Solomon's death only after he fell to the ground? Shouldn't Solomon's brain activity have ceased the instant he died or shortly thereafter? How did they continue to undergo their suffering even after Solomon's death if they were indeed the creative part of his mind?
Fantasies don?t know anything beyond what our senses can feed them. The products of our fantasies can be machines with sensors and so on but nothing that tells the non-physical hidden side. For example, in the case of Solomon?s death, the fantasies could have created a device to listen to the heartbeat or a heat sensing device to measure body temperature. However, all those devices are much like the falling of the staff that Solomon was leaning on. They provide a physical indication of death. They don?t peer into the hidden side to get the info directly.
There are only certain places where those meanings (i.e. "jinn"=fantasy) would actually fit. For example
O you jinns and humans, did you not receive messengers from among you, who narrated to you My revelations, and warned you about the meeting of this day? They will say, "We bear witness against ourselves." They were totally preoccupied with the worldly life, and they will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers. (6130)
If jinn meant "fantasy", this would imply that our fantasies receive messengers from among the fantasies, and this is not logical.
Fantasies do indeed receive messages and messengers (all humans, including messengers have fantasies). Much of the great reading (all the allegorical passages that rely on our imagination) is directed towards fantasies.
We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He was/became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute! (1850)
Satan is here described among the angels, and this makes it illogical for him to be a fantasy after the scripture verifies his reality. A real person can't be or become a fantasy.
The problem is that you are thinking of ?malaika? in the sense of mythological angels, or winged people wearing white robes with halos hovering on the top of their heads. You are not thinking of them as controllers. A controller is not a specific specie but can be any specie. It is an attribute. Thus, 1850 says that Satan WAS a fantasy/jinn. A fantasy in control and given control of certain aspects of the universe is a controller. A controller by definition obeys the god. As soon as any controller (fantasy or other creature) disobeys the god then they cease to be a controller.
Satan is not a ?real person?. You are again thinking in terms of Judeo-Christian mythology of Satan being a red guy with horns and a pointy tail. The reality that we can empirically verify is that the ultimate source of all evil that we do is our fantasy not a guy with a huge fork.
No human ever touched them, nor a jinn. (5574)
If jinns are simply fantasies, then this verse would be illogical, since fantasies can't physically touch anything or anyone. There are other examples as well that show the concept to be more logical if jinns were actually a separate group of people/separate species of beings, not imaginary creatures.
Do you seriously think that 5574 is about virgins that no humans and alien ?species of beings? or guys with horns touched?
I think that it is more logical that the imagination didn?t touch them. In other words, we can?t even imagine them. This is empirically verifiable since we can?t even imagine what the mates in Chapter 55 will be like.
What does it mean to you when you say Satan was a controller? He was a controller of what?
Whatever matter the god gave control to Satan in. Controllers are given different things to control. We are given the example of the controller of death in the great reading.
As for Jinns, it seem to be very clear from Al-Quran that they are creatures, which share some of our characteristics... When we read Surah Al-Jinn, it says a group of Jinns were passing by and they heard the Quran being recited and they responded to it in a positive manner... So they have the ability to hear, think and reflect, detect the truth and formulate an opinion on issues... Same qualities that we have as humans... However, we should always focus on the CLEAR verses and not try to force interpretation and see things which are not there...
Fantasies are part of the human psyche. So they share and provide our characteristics. When we listen, they are listening too.
Even though "controller" is a more accurate translation of the Arabic word "malayka", from the scriptures, it is scripturally referring to the angelic beings, not those who physically control things. Indeed, Allah is the One who is in control of all things, and He is the controller. Satan (Iblis) was among the angelic beings, and he became a jinn.
The god gives control to whom he wills and takes it away from whom he wills. Being a controller is about being given control by the god. It is not about mythical angelic beings.
Satan was already a ?jinn? and control can be given to a ?jinn? by the god if he decides to do so. He simply stopped being a controller when he disobeyed the god.
I read Ayman's article, and it is incorrect in terms of an accurate translation of that verse. 5574 is a continuation of the previous verses, and after each one, the question arises, "Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?" This is followed by the statement
They relax on green carpets, in beautiful surroundings. (5576)
Well, obviously this verse isn't speaking about jinns or about the human mind. It's speaking about the spouses/mates mentioned in 5570. So, in this case, "jinn" can't be referring to a "fantasy" since the verse is speaking about a physical touching.
Do you really think that green carpets like the ones that we are familiar with is what is being talked about here?
This is clearly an allegorical passage and it goes back to the fact that the fantasies can?t know the hidden. The god gives us those allegories so that our fantasy tries to comprehend and be guided but the reality of the hidden is not even close.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman
Your post shows how much you are convinced in what you are advocating.... )
No problem though... Our minds remain open and we should be using it to come to conclusions... It is good that you are defending your theory...
I have a question...
How will you explain POSSESSION cases from JINNS... Here in my country it is widespread... And when exorcised, these JINNS will usually talk through the mouth of the victim and tell who sent them and how they were sent...
There was a case here where the JINN told the exorcist to go to a particular beach, an exact location, to dig there and this was what he did... He found a paper with names written on it... and the name of the possessed person was on the list... So how can you explain this?
Can I send my fantasy to someone else? Or command it to do so and so...
Will wait for your reply.
Peace brother.
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How will you explain POSSESSION cases from JINNS... Here in my country it is widespread... And when exorcised, these JINNS will usually talk through the mouth of the victim and tell who sent them and how they were sent...
Have you ever seen that happening? Is there any evidence beside anecdotal evidence of such a thing happening? Perhaps it's only the so-called "possessed person" who's talking.
There was a case here where the JINN told the exorcist to go to a particular beach, an exact location, to dig there and this was what he did... He found a paper with names written on it... and the name of the possessed person was on the list... So how can you explain this?
I think the person themselves had buried the list of names and spoke from memory. People do crazy things for attention and tales of possession normally come from places where the people are generally uneducated and therefore more likely to be superstitious. In almost all the stories I've heard about witchcraft and possession, the incidents of witchcraft and possession occurred in villages.
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Peace
I never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people... Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true... The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...
Regards
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I never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people... Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true... The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...
yes always a friend of a friend had such experiences... but... your phone call is innovative )
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Peace,
I never witnessed with my own eyes but CLOSE RELATIVES and friends did witness these and I 100% trust these people...
Please forgive me, but I think that's rather unwise. Your belief that possession is real is based on hearsay, which is the worst reason to believe something.
Once a friend phoned me while the possessed person was yelling and crying... I heard it through the phone... Believe me, this thing is very true... The one I am talking about did not happen in village, but in town itself...
There are a trillion reasons why people yell and cry. The person you're talking about could've been in a lot of pain and misery. I think belief in possession can be dangerous because a person's strange behaviour can be due to something very serious. Dismissing something that's serious as a case of possession will leave that serious issue unresolved.