WHY JESUS, COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BORN WITHOUT A FATHER...
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WHY JESUS COULD NOT BEEN BORN WITHOUT A FATHER
Allah says this about His Qur'an/Book of Guidance
2185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down The Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, and clear proofs of guidance and the criterion. So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
25.33 And they shall not bring to you any question/argument, but We have brought to you the truth and best explanation.
75.19 Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.
Then He says
448 Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
7.33 Say My Lord has indeed forbidden shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.
2124 Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.
17.36 And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
Allah, continues
51.56 And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.
3185 Every soul shall have a taste of death And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life) For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception.
413 Those are limits set by Allah. those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.
Ayat 5156 explains cleary the reason for our existence--to serve Allah, and we serve Him by doing good deeds/practicing righteousness, as detailed in HIS Book of Truth/Light/Clear Proofs--AL-QUR-AN.
The object of life, therefore, is to do good deeds/practice righteousness so that Allah will grant us the Supreme Achievement--Paradise. Allah, gave us Al-Qur-an for our spiritual guidance, growth/development and for the establishing of Islamic jurisprudence, in order that we practice righteousness in this world and by doing so enter Paradise in the next. With this in mnd then, what hasn't Allah hasn't fully explained/detailed, in the best way, in His Qur-an towards that end and, what question/arguement cannot be definitievely answered in Qur'an, toward this end?
The question/areguement before mankind to today is, was Jesus born without having a father/male agency? Ayats 2185, 2573 and 7519 makes it very clear that Allah has addressed and answered this question/arguement in His Qur'an..for those who believe anyway.
Now, before I continue, many people, Muslims especially, mistake extrapolation for Qur'anic critical analysis.
Main Entry EXTRAPOLATE to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area.
Main Entry CRITICALLY exercising or involving careful judgment or judicious evaluation.
Main Entry ANALYZE suggests separating or distinguishing the component parts of something so as to discover its true nature or inner relationships.
As the definition explains, when one extrapolates, one is moving from known data to the explain something to taking unknown data to explain something, leading to a conjectural outcome, but no certain knowledge.
In contrast, when one Qur'anically critically analyzes the known data, one continues to stay with the known data, hence, leading to certain knowledge
Hence, Allah's caveat
1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
Following is the known Qur'anic data concerning human reproduction
164 He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer!
1837 His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust, then out of a sperm-drop, then fashioned thee into a man?
225 O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).
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Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
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Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!
3511 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah.
3677 Doth not man see that it is We Who created him from sperm? yet behold! he (stands forth) as an open adversary!
- It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom.
7537 Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
762 Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight.
8019 From a sperm-drop He hath created him, and then mouldeth him in due proportions;
961 Read in the name of your Lord Who created.
962 He created man from a clot.---
Main Entry SEMEN/SPERM a viscid whitish fluid of the male reproductive tract consisting of spermatozoa suspended in secretions of accessory glands.
Look at the amount of known data/ayats that Allah devoted to the reproduction of humans. Given that, Jesus was a human being/of man, these ayats prove that Jesus had a father, otherwise, he could not have been conceived as sperm is required--that is the LAW of ALLAH. Allah, designed that humans mate and that is why He created us in pairs and why He cannot have children, because He has no MATE, for there is nothing like unto Him to mate with and produce offspring.
Now, there are those here and else where, who, claim that, Adam and Jesus are alike, in that, Adam had no mother or father. The problem with this conclusion is that it is an extrapolation.Nowhere in Al-Qur'an, not one ayat, has Allah stated that Adam had no mother or father nor did He say Jesus was fatherless, this is nothing but extrapolation, that is, conjecture as the result of not having known data. Once again, in contrast, Allah, has provided an abundance of known data on how every human being comes into existence. Why, then, would any rational human being, especially, so-called Muslims, reject the known data and its answers for the unknown data and its conjectural conclusions? Where is the logic and belief in that ??
1036 But most of them follow nothing but conjecture truly conjecture can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do. AND 6116 Were you to follow the common run/majority of those on earth, they will lead you away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie.
It is my understanding that, in addition to Allah telling us about how humans reproduce, the other reason for this amount information in regard to this subject, was to provide the definitive arguement against the Great Shirk that---Allah, has a son. This belief, according to Allah, will send untold numbers to Hell. Given the gravity of the Grat Shirk, it behooves Muslims to stop with their obstinancy and superstition that--Jesus, the son of Maryam, had no father.
Main Entry OBSTINATE perversely or tenaciously adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion.
Main Entry SUPERSTITION a belief or practice resulting from ignorance or a false conception of causation a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary.
For those who disagree with the above ayats/analysis, then...
2124 ..."Bring YOUR convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.
The Alaq and Anthropos arguements, completely destroy the Great Shirk/Great Superstition that--Allah has a son.
The anthropos arguement is as follows. According to the original Greek manuscripts, from which the many versions of the bible emanate, it only speaks of three natures 1. Theos=God. 2. Pneumatikos=Spirit and 3. Anthropos=man/fully human. There is not name/designation for a dual nature nature, which, the Christians claim just was of. Paul/the bible writes
1Timothy 25 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
The word for both men and man, in the Greek is--anthropos--fully human.
Nowhere in the Greek is there a word for a dual nature--nature, hence, the Christians, cannot defend the very core tenet of their belief via their own book--the bible.
So, Alaq--the mingling of sperm and egg to produce a human being and anthropos, meaning fully human, totally destroy the Christian Great Shirk/Great Superstition. As Muslims, lets's not collude in their misbehavior and in anyway be deemed that we support miraculous births or other such superstitious and un-Qur'anic notions.
All praises due to Allah.
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Salaam,
In studying chapter 3 this is what I am seeing...maybe I'm completely off but I am trying to keep an open mind on the "Jesus may have had a father" thing. So here is what I am looking at....
while it could be said that Mary could have been a virgin and untouched at the time she recieved news of the impending pregnancy....some could say that she became pregnant afterwards. In looking at the verses it almost appears that in 337 through 345 (I'm paraphrasing) Zachary sponcers mary, whenever he sees her praying he finds her with a provision from God, Zachary prays to God for descendants, Zachary gets news of a prophet,...Zachary then asks how is he going to have a son when he is old and his wife infertile?....Zachary asks for a sign and he is told to not speak for three days and praise God much. Then we learn that God chose Mary over the worlds women....she is told to prostrate, then told that she was not with them when they chose who would maintain her....then she is told of Jesus.
Could it be a possibility that Zachary is Jesus's father?But then I started looking at the verses that mention Jesus and that Jesus is often referred to as "Mary's son" Usually lineage is through the fathers side not the mothers. So this could very well disprove the whole idea that Jesus had a father. Maybe because he is often referred to as "Mary's Son" means that...since he did not have a father the lineage is through Mary.
I just wanted to entertain this thought and see what others have to say about it.
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Peace "Arnaab",
But then I started looking at the verses that mention Jesus and that Jesus is often referred to as "Mary's son" Usually lineage is through the fathers side not the mothers. So this could very well disprove the whole idea that Jesus had a father. Maybe because he is often referred to as "Mary's Son" means that...since he did not have a father the lineage is through Mary.
I just wanted to entertain this thought and see what others have to say about it.
JK- Absolutely. These and other verses from the Quran indicate that Jesus was born miraculously. We can now argue whether GOD intervened at that very moment or whether that parthenogenic phenomenom was planned and put in by GOD before the big bang. Thus the info may have been in the universe and further in human genes all along and the trait showed up in Mary. It might show up again by GOD's Leave and i believe it will. GOD Bless!
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Peace Arnaab,
You stated
Usually lineage is through the fathers side not the mothers. So this could very well disprove the whole idea that Jesus had a father. Maybe because he is often referred to as "Mary's Son" means that...since he did not have a father the lineage is through Mary.
In my understanding, Maryam is the one woman mentioned with high praise in the Qur'an. If you take yourself out of a cultural view, then calling Isa "son of Maryam" is insignificant regarding virgin birth or conventional. It is only significant because Maryam was significant.
In addition, a quick search for the terms "son of" brought back only Isa/Maryam references and the following
7150 And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said "Miserable is what you have done after I was gone; do you wish to hasten the action of your Lord?" And he cast down the tablets, and took his brother by his head dragging him towards him. He said "Son of my mother, the people overpowered me and nearly killed me, so do not make the enemies rejoice over me, and do not make me with the wicked people."
2094 He(Aaron) said "You son of my mother, do not take/receive by my beard , and nor with my head, that I, I feared, that you say 'You separated between Israel's sons and daughters, and you did not observe/guard my saying/word .'"
Notice, there is no "son of" and then a father's name.
Another search for "ibn" in it's various forms resulted in the same, with these few exceptions
3797
Transliteration Qaloo ibnoo lahu bunyanan faalqoohu fee aljaheemiLiteral They said "Build/construct for him a building/structure, so throw him away in the place of intense heat/roaring fire ."
Free-Minds They said "Build for him a structure, and then throw him into its fire."
4036
Transliteration Waqala firAAawnu ya hamanu ibni lee sarhan laAAallee ablughu al-asbabaLiteral And Pharaoh said "You Haman , build/construct a palace/towering building for me, maybe/perhaps I reach the reasons/motives ."
Free-Minds And Pharaoh said "O Haamaan, build for me a high platform that I may uncover the secrets."
Now these were interesting, because, as you can see, the forms of "ibn" have been translated as "build". I'm hoping one of our scholars can chime in on this one, since in some instances, "ibn" translates as "son of", and in a few others, it is "build". Please see the end of this post for the occurences and understandings from Wakas' PRL.
Now this next verse is the one occurrence I found where "ibn" is connected to a male
527
Transliteration Waotlu AAalayhim nabaa ibnay adama bialhaqqi ith qarraba qurbanan fatuqubbila min ahadihima walam yutaqabbal mina al-akhari qala laaqtulannaka qala innama yataqabbalu Allahu mina almuttaqeenaLiteral And read/recite on them (the) information/news (of) Adam's two sons with the truth , when they (B) approached/neared an approachment to God (an offering), so (it) was accepted from one of them (B) and was not (to) be accepted from the other, he said "I will kill you (E)." He said "But, God accepts from the fearing and obeying."
Free-Minds And recite for them the news of Adam's two sons in truth. They had both made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, and not accepted from the other. He said "I will kill you!"; he said "God only accepts from the righteous."
It is notable that the lone exception is in reference to Adam's two sons, but they are not refered to as "sons of Adam".
I think, using the method of comparing the Qur'an to itself only, we can take the traditional understanding that it is somehow incorrect to refer to someone as the "son of" his/her mother and throw it right out the window. The ayat speak for themselves. Unless someone can provide some relevant evidence otherwise, then I would find it safe to assume that this tradition has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with post-Qur'anic culture.
Peace,
Tayhttp//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ba-Nun-Ya =
Building, framing or constructing
Kind of plank used in the construction (e.g. of ships)
Becoming large, fattened or fat (like food enlarges a man)
Rearing, bringing up, educating
Form or mode of constructing a word
Natural constitution
Of or relating to a son or daughter
Branches of a road/tree
A builder/architect
A building
Bending over a bowstring while shooting
Ribs, bones of the breast or shoulder blades and the four legs
A thief/robber
A wayfarer/traveler
A warrior
A rich man
A certain beast of prey
A skin for water or milk made of hide
Raised high (applied to a palace/pavilion)ibn/son, abna/sons, ibnah/daughter, banat/daughters, banun/children/sons, traveler (ibn al sabil), children of Israel (banee isra-eela)
9110, 506, 5147, 7812, 7927, 915
26128
1821, 3797, 4036, 6611
222, 4064
3920
3837
9109, 9109, 9110, 1626, 1821, 3797, 614
249, 2146, 2246, 361, 361, 411, 423, 518, 527, 620, 7127, 7141, 7150, 924, 930, 930, 1142, 1145, 1281, 146, 2094, 2431, 2431, 284, 3113, 334, 3355, 3355, 3355, 4025, 5822
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Salam,
Thank you Brothers Jonny K and Tay.
Akhi Tay that is a very very good point about being called son of Mary. I didn't realize that Moses and Aaron had also referred to themselves as sons of their mother. Thank you for the research you put into this and the verses you referrenced. It is much appreciated. -
tay wrote...
While your opinion is appreciated, an opinion without reference or support does not help anyone.the thread proposes a father for jesus, as such if u share the opinion bring forth ur references! alternatively, give ur allegiance to the initial post so that we may proceed! if u own up the claims that jesus had a father, i will respond by writing 'tay wrote...' rather than the name of the original poster! -)
peace
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Peace thegod,
I think you may have misunderstood me. Let's backtrack
You stated
in the light of quran there can be only 1 conclusion that jesus did not have a father! anything other than that be mere disputations against the god! -S
This is called unreferenced opinion. You are stating your opinion without anything to support your opinion. So, while it's nice to share, it doesn't help anyone who may be reading this thread.
I hope that helps.
Peace,
Tay -
tay wrote...
This is called unreferenced opinion. You are stating your opinion without anything to support your opinion. So, while it's nice to share, it doesn't help anyone who may be reading this thread.an opinion has been offered by the original poster, who happens to not be around! ofcourse, it might be that this person is hanging around with some other name, in which case may come forward so that i may discuss his opinion with him! however, in his absence or otherwise, if somebody does concur with his opinions, let them come forth and bring their arguments, or agree to defend the position of the original poster!
not every claim that is made is responded to with lengthy explanations, expecially if there is nobody around to defend that claim! -)
okay, if this helps u or anyone! -)
3 59 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
peace -)
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Peace thegod,
Thanks for the reference.
If God using the "be" command is what connects Adam and Isa, then this is no different than anything else that God does...3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!
Remember, He created all humanity from dust via the "Be" command.
Peace,
Tay -
tay wrote...
Peace thegod,Thanks for the reference.
anytime! -)
tay wrote...
If God using the "be" command is what connects Adam and Isa, then this is no different than anything else that God does...3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!
perhaps u are missing the forest for the trees here! god has 'specially' singled out adam (and not 'insaan' which is perhaps the generic term for humans)! if it was as simple as saying jesus was born like others, there would have been no reason to mention adam! god could have simply stated his example is that of others, or even that his example is that of other prophets! but adam whose creation is different from that of the majority of humankind, has been used as an example for jesus!
tay wrote...
Remember, He created all humanity from dust via the "Be" command.so perhaps u are saying that the 'be' command was used for u in the same way it was used for adam? or perhaps u are implying that ur birth and the creation of adam are exactly the same? -)
besides, a claim was made that jesus had a father, so the onus was on the claimant to prove that! however since he seems not to be around, i would not like to directly reply to his post! so i again offer, in case the person is around with some other name, or if someone else is ready to own up the claim, do come forward! -)
peace -)
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Peace thegod,
god has 'specially' singled out adam (and not 'insaan' which is perhaps the generic term for humans)!
Yes, specifically.
if it was as simple as saying jesus was born like others, there would have been no reason to mention adam! god could have simply stated his example is that of others, or even that his example is that of other prophets!
And God could have also said that Isa did not have a father, which of course, He did not. Therefore we're left with what He did say.
but adam whose creation is different from that of the majority of humankind, has been used as an example for jesus!
All creation comes from the command "Be", as I illustrated for you. There is no difference.
so perhaps u are saying that the 'be' command was used for u in the same way it was used for adam? or perhaps u are implying that ur birth and the creation of adam are exactly the same?
It's not me that's saying it, it's the Qur'an.
a claim was made that jesus had a father, so the onus was on the claimant to prove that!
The Qur'an never states that Isa was born without a father. The onus, therefore, is on those who hold this view which contradicts Allah's laws of creation.
Peace,
Tay -
tay wrote...
Yes, specifically.cool! -)
tay wrote...
And God could have also said that Isa did not have a father, which of course, He did not. Therefore we're left with what He did say.and god could have said jesus did have a father, which it did not! so u have got absolutely nothing to base ur argument upon, except conjecture! -)
but lets go back to the time of revelation of quran! jesus was a figure who was well-established back then, and so was his miraculous birth, there was no point to say he did not have a father! however, he was being called the son of god, and as such the example of adam that god is glorified above having a son through a woman! rather, his likeness was that of adam the way adam was created without any human involvement, so was jesus born without a father!
tay wrote...
All creation comes from the command "Be", as I illustrated for you. There is no difference.
It's not me that's saying it, it's the Qur'an.u illustrated nothing! -) lets take the example of birth of a child and the creation of earth! the birth comes about by the command 'be', but there are a lot many other characters who take 'part' in the birth! the creation of earth also came about by the command 'be', but it definitely was a different way in which it was realised!
the quran definitely does not say that ur birth and creation of adam was the same process! the quran simply says that all god needs to carry out a task is the word 'be', the rest is all ur imagination! -)
tay wrote...
The Qur'an never states that Isa was born without a father. The onus, therefore, is on those who hold this view which contradicts Allah's laws of creation.the quran does not state that jesus had a father! given the fact that the christians believed in the virignal birth of christ, it would have been a better option to simply state that christ had a father, rather than allude his existence to adam's!
3 59 That Jesus' example at God (is) as Adam's example, (He) created him from dust/earth then He said to him "Be." So he became.
just like god created adam without a father with a 'be', likewise was the birth of jesus without a father, with a 'be'! -)
3 60 The truth (is) from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.
####### so if u have anything based on quran to back ur view, bring it up! else be not of those who argue against god based on conjecture (i dont say that the quran does)! -)
####### peace -)
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Peace thegod,
and god could have said jesus did have a father, which it did not! so u have got absolutely nothing to base ur argument upon, except conjecture!
Conjecture would be assuming a virgin birth occurred when no such thing is stated. This is your position, not mine.
the way adam was created without any human involvement, so was jesus born without a father!
Now that's conjecture! wink
Please quote me the ayah that states that Adam was born without a father, otherwise, stand corrected.u illustrated nothing!
I didn't?
Here's the ayah again, the one that you call "nothing"...
3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!So, as we see, ALL of Allah's creation comes from the command "Be".
Now what about the dust??
1837 His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust, then out of a sperm-drop, then fashioned thee into a man?
So, my friend, the example of Isa being like that of Adam, as quoted in 359, is that he was created from dust, via the "be" command. As illustrated above, all of humanity was also created from dust via the "be" command. So what is 359 really telling us by drawing these similarities?
Is it that Isa was different, or that Isa was the same?
Let's ask the Qur'an
575 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.There you have it.
the quran does not state that jesus had a father! given the fact that the christians believed in the virignal birth of christ, it would have been a better option to simply state that christ had a father, rather than allude his existence to adam's!
It's great that you feel you have this sort of divine insight. However, since these thoughts cannot be validated, let's please stick to what we have in black and white.
In the Qur'an, what is more frequently and adamantly addressed, the fact that the Christians believed Isa was born without a father, or the fact that Isa was worshipped as God?
just like god created adam without a father with a 'be', likewise was the birth of jesus without a father, with a 'be'!
You have yet to establish this.
so if u have anything based on quran to back ur view, bring it up!
I have. I hope you'll do the same.
else be not of those who argue against god based on conjecture (i dont say that the quran does)!
One should be open and inviting to new ideas and understandings according to the Qur'an. I'm not sure why you're so quick to let things deteriorate to this level of rhetoric. But, that's your perogative.
Looking forward to your replies.
Peace,
Tay -
tay wrote...
Conjecture would be assuming a virgin birth occurred when no such thing is stated. This is your position, not mine.u stated since god does not say jesus did not have a father, it means jesus has a father! by the ur same literalism, since god does not say jesus had a father, it means jesus did not have a father! so u are doing naught but conjecturing! -) its sad u do not understand or implement consistency! -)
Please quote me the ayah that states that Adam was born without a father, otherwise, stand corrected.
do quote the ayah that states adam was born through a father, otherwise u are only conjecturing, by ur own standards! -)
38 71 When your Lord said to the angels "That I am creating a human from mud/clay .
38 72 So if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Spirit , so fall/come to him prostrating.
now quote an ayah that states god told the angels it was going to cause the birth of adam through some father! else, dont conjecture! -)
tay wrote...
I didn't?
Here's the ayah again, the one that you call "nothing"...
3682 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it "Be" and it is!So, as we see, ALL of Allah's creation comes from the command "Be".
u did not! -( indeed all of creation comes from the command 'be'!
tay wrote...
Now what about the dust??1837 His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust, then out of a sperm-drop, then fashioned thee into a man?
indeed, u are created from dust because ur forefathers are from dust, u are created from sperm because u are created from the sperm of ur father, and thereafter u were fashioned into a human!
tay wrote...
So, my friend, the example of Isa being like that of Adam, as quoted in 359, is that he was created from dust, via the "be" command. As illustrated above, all of humanity was also created from dust via the "be" command. So what is 359 really telling us by drawing these similarities?god created everything with a 'be', so perhaps the earth also came from sperm! -)
tay wrote...
Is it that Isa was different, or that Isa was the same?Let's ask the Qur'an
575 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.There you have it.
indeed, christians claimed jesus was god, as such god reminded that jesus was no more than a messenger, and he ate food in other words he was human, not god! it does not say jesus was born of a father, yet again u have conjectured! -)
tay wrote...
It's great that you feel you have this sort of divine insight. However, since these thoughts cannot be validated, let's please stick to what we have in black and white.In the Qur'an, what is more frequently and adamantly addressed, the fact that the Christians believed Isa was born without a father, or the fact that Isa was worshipped as God?
i was expecting such an argument! -) the fact is that christians beleived jesus was son of god, as such they beleived god begot him through a woman, as such they believed he did not have a father! i suggest u read the quran! -)
tay wrote...
One should be open and inviting to new ideas and understandings according to the Qur'an. I'm not sure why you're so quick to let things deteriorate to this level of rhetoric. But, that's your perogative.####### indeed, according to quran, not conjecture! -) u have demanded a black and white verse which states jesus did not have a father! however, given the fact that christians called him the son of god, the demand is more to state that jesus had a father! however u have failed to produce any verse which states this in as many words! far from that, u have failed to produce a single verse which according to u substantiates ur claim! -)
######## again i remind u, the title of the thread is 'why jesus could not have been born without a father"! as such the onus is to bring black and white verses to justify this 'why', according to ur criterion! -) so i do hope u will bring forth a verse which substantiates ur claim,and be a little more consistent in what u demand as proof and what u offer as proof! -)
tay wrote...
Looking forward to your replies
.
######### looking forward to ur first proof! -)########## peace -)
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Peace thegod,
u stated since god does not say jesus did not have a father, it means jesus has a father! by the ur same literalism, since god does not say jesus had a father, it means jesus did not have a father!
Umm...not exactly. See, all people are born via the male sperm fertilizing the female egg. This is natural, and thus, assumed to be ordinary. This is why we're not told Moses had a father. It's already understood. Do you see the difference?
do quote the ayah that states adam was born through a father, otherwise u are only conjecturing, by ur own standards!
I can only go by what's in the Qur'an and what's evident in life. Neither supports the idea of a virgin birth.
You quoted
38 71 When your Lord said to the angels "That I am creating a human from mud/clay .
38 72 So if I straightened him, and I blew in him from My Soul/Spirit , so fall/come to him prostrating.
Please show me where Adam is mentioned in Surat Saad.
now quote an ayah that states god told the angels it was going to cause the birth of adam through some father!
The ayat you posted are not in relation to Adam, but to mankind, created from clay.
indeed all of creation comes from the command 'be'!
I'm glad we finally agree.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
tay wrote...
Umm...not exactly. See, all people are born via the male sperm fertilizing the female egg. This is natural, and thus, assumed to be ordinary.what do u say about the first man and woman! -)
tay wrote...
This is why we're not told Moses had a father. It's already understood. Do you see the difference?and this is why moses or humankind is not made as an example to jesus in 359! instead, the example used is that of adam! -)
tay wrote...
I can only go by what's in the Qur'an and what's evident in life. Neither supports the idea of a virgin birth.u have perhaps overlooked what i wrote about the claim that jesus was god's son! quran states that 'they' said that god had begotten a son! again, the mother of this son is a woman! then how did god beget this son? through this woman! if god begot that son through a woman, then that son would not have a father other than god itself! as such the claim is clear that jesus was not known to have a father! i do hope u will go by what quran says and not by ur literalism! -)
tay wrote...
Please show me where Adam is mentioned in Surat Saad.
The ayat you posted are not in relation to Adam, but to mankind, created from clay.3871 For your Lord said to the Angels "I am creating a human being from clay."
3872 "So when I have evolved him, and breathed into him from My spirit, then you shall submit to him."
3873 The Angels submitted, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters.234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
1761 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." So they submitted except for Satan, he said "Shall I submit to one you have created from mud!"
read to ur satisfaction! -)
tay wrote...
I'm glad we finally agree.we do agree that god carries out its task with a 'be'! however we differ in that i opine that different tasks are realised in different ways, even though they come about by a 'be'! however, u seem to be of the opinion that everything is accomplished in the same manner, as such it appears u are saying god created adam, jesus, rest of humans, trees, mountains, stars and the rest with a 'be', it created them all out of sperm! -)
i am still waiting for the first proof "why jesus could not have been born without a father"! the proof may not necessarily be black and white, but should be supported by quran and reasoning, and not conjecture! -)
may peace be upon you -)