How can we be sure that Jesus did not die on the cross?

pvb

You are reading more into the Quran then what is there. The only things that it says is that the Jews did not crucify Jesus!!

Yes!!- it was all in GOD's plan for HIM to terminate Jesus' time on earth.

See the part I made bold

John 19
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

Jesus died sooner, GOD terminated Jesus' life. Yes!! GOD saved Jesus from further pain and humiliation from all those wanting Him to be crucified!!

FAR

You are reading more into the Quran then what is there. The only things that it says is that the Jews did not crucify Jesus!!

Yes!!- it was all in GOD's plan for HIM to terminate Jesus' time on earth.

See the part I made bold

John 19
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

Jesus died sooner, GOD terminated Jesus' life. Yes!! GOD saved Jesus from further pain and humiliation from all those wanting Him to be crucified!!

I would only trust the words of Jesus. Are any of those Jesus's words?

yalnizim

Peace Yalnizim,

Although it is conceiveable that Jesus died of old age instead of dying on the cross (since the Qur'an says that the Jews neither KILLED HIM or CRUCIFIED HIM), it conflicts with other Qur'anic verses. For example

Thus, Allah said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes. (355)

This clearly says that Jesus' life was terminated by Allah so that he would be saved from the disbelievers. This is evidence that Jesus didn't die of natural causes, and his life was most likely terminated prior to his alleged crucifixion, since this is the period when the disbelievers were seeking to kill him.

Peace,

Ahmad

Irrespective of whether Jesus (pbh) died before or after the event of crucifixion, I am bit confused by your argument. If Allah causes someone to die, is that an UNNATURAL death? Or do you believe that Allah had planned a longer life for Jesus (pbh) ... and then seeing the disbelievers plot to kill Jesus (pbh) ... Allah decided to 'terminate' his life prematurely? Who then was laid on the cross? If you subscribe to the view that it was a person transformed into a likeness of Jesus (pbh), where do you get it from. 'Shub'be-ha' refers to 'an event' and does not mean 'Tashbeeh = likeness' >> anyone with slightest knowledge of Arabic would know this. Anyway ... if an EXACT likeness of Jesus (pbh) was crucified ... what object does that achieve as far as enemies of Jesus (pbh) are concerned.

Why can't we accept a purely valid, commonsense, logical explanation , that Jesus (pbh) was placed upon the cross, but he was not crucified . Rather, he fainted due to the weakness and suffering caused him ... he was rescued and taken to a chamber by two of his followers who resuscitated him. Jesus, after having recovered, appeared (albeit in a disguise) to his few chosen followers. These facts are substantiated even by the New Testament. Is this not miraculous enough for those who seek miracles?

NOTE Exactly like 'Hanging' means to cause death, not just suspend a person by the rope, 'Crucifixion' means inflicting actual death, not just placing a person upon a cross!!

This is exactly what Qur'na majeed states ... 'wa maa salabu'hu' ... 'They did not crucify him ...' . Qur'an does not state 'wa maa 3alaqu'hu' .

In any event, whatever the explanation and whatever the outcome, that Jesus (pbh) was neither allowed to be 'crucified' nor 'murdered' by his enemies is mentioned in the Qur'an. The disbelievers plotted their best in trying to kill Jesus (pbh) but Allah defeated all their machinations ... this is a fundamental belief, the rest is open to personal interpretation. A point which I no longer care to argue about. Was'salaam

pvb

FAR - Those were the GOD inspired words of eyewitnesses to the event. Do you own a Bible?

Yes, you are a Quran only Muslim!! That is a good point!

There is a difference between hadith and eyewitnesses though, we have much of the GOD inspired original writings of the eyewitneses. Hadith was passed down orally for a couple of hundred years before it was written down. No one has a solid back up that an event ever happened. In the Gospels you have the 4 to validate each other.

Anyway your Quran validates the Gospel!!

Some prophecies of Jesus

Psalm 22
For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him?
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him?
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn?
for he has done it.

Zechariah 12
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

I wonder if this verse is why the Gnostics believed that Jesus was a spirit only?

pvb

yalnizim - No, it is part of GOD's plan of salvation for us. No, if you were to read the Holy Bible you would see hints from Jesus that He knew that He was sent for this specific purpose.

GOD allowed Jesus to die at the time He felt the sacrifice was done

Not sure what you mean by this-"Anyway ... if an EXACT likeness of Jesus (pbh) was crucified ... what object does that achieve as far as enemies of Jesus (pbh) are concerned." Never a thought of Christians.

We know that Jesus was dead because the Roman soldier pierced His side. Remember it was the job of the soldiers to make sure that thoe crucified were in fact dead..

Actually working in a hospital for 20 years yes the dead can seep blood, especially when pooled with other body fluids that would have been in His lungs because of the way He hung.

and whatever the outcome, that Jesus (pbh) was neither allowed to be 'crucified' nor 'murdered' by his enemies is mentioned in the Qur'an.

Yes, it was GOD's plan

http//www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/jesusdeath.html

afridi220

yalnizim - No, it is part of GOD's plan of salvation for us. No, if you were to read the Holy Bible you would see hints from Jesus that He knew that He was sent for this specific purpose.

GOD allowed Jesus to die at the time He felt the sacrifice was done

Not sure what you mean by this-"Anyway ... if an EXACT likeness of Jesus (pbh) was crucified ... what object does that achieve as far as enemies of Jesus (pbh) are concerned." Never a thought of Christians.

We know that Jesus was dead because the Roman soldier pierced His side. Remember it was the job of the soldiers to make sure that thoe crucified were in fact dead..

Actually working in a hospital for 20 years yes the dead can seep blood, especially when pooled with other body fluids that would have been in His lungs because of the way He hung.

and whatever the outcome, that Jesus (pbh) was neither allowed to be 'crucified' nor 'murdered' by his enemies is mentioned in the Qur'an.

Yes, it was GOD's plan

http//www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/jesusdeath.html

The Jews say Uzair is Allah?s son; and the Christians say The Messiah is Allah?s son? ?Allah ruin them, how they are turned away from the truth. They have taken their divines and their monks for lords besides Allah, and also the Messiah son of Mary. They had only been commanded to worship the One God. There is no god but He. Holy is He above that which they associate with Him. They desire to extinguish the light of Allah by blowing through their mouths, but Allah utterly rejects everything except that He will perfect His light, even though the disbelievers may dislike it. He it is who sent His Messenger of Truth, that He may make it (Islam) prevail over every other religion, even though those who associate partners with Allah may dislike it. (Surah 930-34)

mujahingle

Qur'an says so
a lot of "apocryphal" gospels say the same
histories of crucifixion/resurrection of a messiah are older than Isa and recently found in the scriptures of the Qumran cave in Palestine

Bigmo

Its not crucifixion thats important but the trinity. Thats what the Koran attacked and condemned as blasphemy.

mujahingle

Its not crucifixion thats important but the trinity

both are fake and existing before Isa came

pvb

Bigmo- I don't know? Is it more important that we understand and know GOD completely? Or is it more important to thank GOD for the amazing gift of grace He has given us? More people can understand the sacrifice, does that hold ore weight?

Jehovah Witness- They understand the relationship of GOD and Jesus differently then me, but they do try to follow all of Jesus' teachings.

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Can mean His sacrifice, or following His greatests commands

Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

mujahingle - some of the gospels are fakes. There is even a difference between the Barnabas Gospel and Barnabas Epistle. The Qumram scrolls do talk about a Teacher of Righteousness- Is this Jesus? Or is this John the Baptists?

I would like to know all the multile meanings of the words in verse 4157

TransliterationWaqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

LiteralAnd their saying "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

There is a big difference between not putting Jesus on a cross and crucifying Him.

I think this verse might hold the answer to whether the Quran has been misinterpreted, Mohammad is a false prophet, or the Quran was really written in Armaic/Syriac.

There is another verse I will start another thread on that one.

Where is Arnab when we need him?

mujahingle

some of the gospels are fakes.

of course, and a lot of verses in the bible too.
so how we can know?

simple, with the qur'an
in the qur'an it is written isa isn't died in the cross. stop.

pvb

LOL!! mujahingle the Quran validates the Gospel which is Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These have always been the 4 that everyone have always agreed on.

Now which verses does the Quran state are false? LOL! You are a hoot!!

mujahingle

the Quran validates the Gospel which is Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These have always been the 4 that everyone have always agreed on.

totally wrong.

for sure you are a christian, but if you want to talk about the Qur'an you should study it better.

RiseUpMyPpl

Hi everyone. How can we be sure that Jesus (pbuh) did not die on the cross when even secular historians attest to the idea that he did? ???

How can you say secular historians attest to the crucifixion? You make is sound as if it is unanimous. Many can't agree on if Jesus even existed. Some even say that it isn't scientifically possible for Jesus to be crucified the way it is described. Calculations and experiments were done and the stakes could not have even been driven through the bones like that, especially with one leg over the other shin.
Then you have the bible speaking about him disguised as a gardener, people going to anoint him with spices (which was done for the living) etc..

pvb

http//www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm

or google-

JOSEPHUS (37-101 A.D.)- now some of his work was stretched by later writers to say more about Jesus then he really did, TACITUS (55-117 A.D.), LUCIAN (120-180 A.D.)

Where was Jesus disguised as a gardener? Please list references.

When were stakes driven through Jesus bones? Please list references again. Yhanks.

Rami

Peace pvb,

Let me make something very clear to you. All 'holy' scriptures contradict each other. And most probably there is no way to reconcile them. The Quran quotes the Torah and Injeel and states that Mohammed is mentioned in them. Why will Mohammed say that? Not a very good marketing move. The people of the book will immediately deduce that he is a liar. And don't think you are not in trouble yourself. You believe that the Hebrew scriptures are intact but at the same time you believe that Yeshua is the messiah and in false concepts not found in the Hebrew bible. The messianic prophecies in Judaism are just plain impossible to materialize. So we are locked, if you believe in 2 or all 3 scriptures you become a walking paradox and you will be unable to defend your position. In your case, you must reject some of the Tanakh to believe in the NT or otherwise the Jews will simply crush you. Believe me. I tried it. Not so pretty.

Peace,

Rami

IronSky

Peace to all,

how about this verse pvb

http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%202014-15&version=9

Mary doesnt even recognize jesus as he sneaks upto her because she thought he was the gardener, whats this about? He returned from the dead in a pure divine form but had to disguise himself, and then when he sees his disciples he immediately asks then to prepare food for him? Doesnt sound like one who rose from the dead does it, or maybe one who tricked the romans and jews into believing he died, id be pretty hungry to after 4 days of nothing to eat or drink, as the Quran says, it was made to appears so to them, and remember when the jews were demanding to have their own guard watch over the tomb because they were afraid that jesus followers were going to sneak him out of the tomb and then say see he has risen, and also Joseph of aramethea was one of the powerful jews of the sanhedrin who was a secret admirer of Jesus and he actually had a new tomb erected and given only to jesus to use, how perfect, quite the little stunt they pulled, all told exactly as is in the new testament, you just dont look for it, or you refuse to believe, which is it?

Kurt

pvb

LOL!! Rami- If it is truly holy and there is a conflict then it is us that have mis-interpreted.

Did Mohammad or the Quran say that he was mentioned in the Bible? If in Quran please list verse. Thanks.

I believe that if it is scripture then it is intact and it is our interpretations that are off. The Jewish interpretations of the Old Testament have left the Jews blinded from Christ.

The interpretations of the following verses have left Muslims blind to a historical incident. Whether you believe Jesus is GOD or not the crucifixion happened. At one time the Jews were a hated people blamed for the crucifixion of Jesus by Christians. We have learned to understand interprete scripture to see that it was part of GOD's plan. We are all guilty of being responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.

04.157
YUSUFALI That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
PICKTHAL And because of their saying We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR And their saying Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
004.158
YUSUFALI Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

pvb

Ironsky- Did you read all of that chapter?

It was still dark.
She saw Jesus die, was an eyewitness.
She was weeping, looking through tears.

Jesus had not disguised himself she did not recognize Him.