How can we be sure that Jesus did not die on the cross?
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Peace,
wow With no intention of sounding biased, Real Truth hit the nail right on the head, and he's definately done a sufficient amount of research on this subject...
bravo Very good information, RT, and great post. Welcome to the forum...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Hi everyone. How can we be sure that Jesus (pbuh) did not die on the cross when even secular historians attest to the idea that he did? ???
salaam pg & all,
strange as it may, we can actually ask jesus (isha) about it.
ponder on this verse
2200. Fa-itha qadaytum manasikakum faothkuroo Allaha kathikrikum abaakum aw ashadda thikran famina alnnasi man yaqoolu rabbana atina fee alddunya wama lahu fee al-akhirati min khalaqin
2200. So when you (pl.) have determined your solitude, remember God like you remember your forefathers, or a better remembrance. But some people say, ?Our Lord, accomplish us in this world,? and in the Hereafter, none to him any share!then, this verse
2154. Wala taqooloo liman yuqtalu fee sabeeli Allahi amwatun bal ahyaon walakin la tashAAuroona
2154. And don?t you (pl.) say about anyone killed in the path of God as dead. They are alive rather, even though you do not perceive them.when we remember jesus (among our forefathers. so too are abraham, muhammad, jacob, joseph, solomon, etc. we are all of the same mould and origin.), and ask him, insha-Allah he will talk to us. read the second part of 2154 with extra care, please. insha-Allah, God will allow us to attain a perception beyond imagination, for God is the Lord of comprehension. He is the Merciful Compassion.
but if asking jesus is beyond your courage, then ask God Himself.
also ponder on these verses
2152. Faothkuroonee athkurkum waoshkuroo lee wala takfurooni
2152. Therefore, you (pl.) remember Me, I shall remember you, and be grateful to Me, and don?t you disbelieve.-
Wa-itha saalaka AAibadee AAannee fa-innee qareebun ojeebu daAAwata alddaAAi itha daAAani falyastajeeboo lee walyu/minoo bee laAAallahum yarshudoona
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And when My servants ask you (s) about Me, verily I am close. I shall answer pleas of support when one pleads to Me, so let them answer My call, and have faith in Me, so that they follow the right way.
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Wa-in jahadaka AAala an tushrika bee ma laysa laka bihi AAilmun fala tutiAAhuma wasahibhuma fee alddunya maAAroofan waittabiAA sabeela man anaba ilayya thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faonabbi-okum bima kuntum taAAmaloona
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Even if they compel you to compare Me, of which you have no knowledge, then do not obey them, and socialize amicably with them in this world, while you pursue the way of one who frequently turns to Me. Moreover, your (pl.) recourse is with Me, therefore I am advising you what you should be doing.
and of course, please ponder on the verses quoted by TheNabi (joe).
our wish is that we spend much more time 'entertaining' (dedicated to; engrossing ourselves in) God, rather than ideas diametrically opposed to the lessons contained in the Qur'an. please revert to God, as indicated by emboldened red of 3115 above.
may God guide us all. insha-Allah.
peace
mohammed noh -
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LOL!! I don't think you want to use arguments against the Holy Bible that are exactly the type that can be found against the Quran. You would learn much if you used the effort of discrediting the Bible to find out the truth.
Read the following, Paul was referencing the Scripture in his Epistles.
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.When did Paul live, ca 5 - 67 AD. So the Gospels that we have today actually existed before 67AD.
Cool - an internal reference to the truth of that Bible. Does anything like that exist in the Quran? So much is made on the number of Books accepted by the different Christian groups- that doesn't matter!! What does- the 4 Gospels were always considered the GOSPEL Truth.
Have you ever read anything about Polycarp or the students of the original disciples?
Oh and don't make the mistake of combining the Gospel and New Testament into one entity- LOL! I know how you like the number 1!! The Gospel is a part of the New Testament.
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Offering no proof and your trying to argue against the best scholars, with proof you don't have, Please answer me this, if what you say is true, WHY haven't we found Gospels written in the dates you say, you follow nothing but a sad conjecture and trying to use that as proof
LOL!! I don't think you want to use arguments against the Holy Bible that are exactly the type that can be found against the Quran. You would learn much if you used the effort of discrediting the Bible to find out the truth.
I've already discredited the bible with a series of quotes from scholars, did you happen to miss my 2 posts above O0? But let's see what most scholars have to say
The following is the verdict of the world's greatest Bible critic, Baur
"These Gospels are spurious, and were written in the second century."
"After having exhausted the literature and the testimony bearing on the point, we have not found a single distinct trace of any of those Gospels during the first century and a half after the death of Jesus" (Supernatural Religion, Vol. II, p. 24.
Fifteen hundred years ago, Bishop Faustus, a heretical Christian theologian, referring to this so-called Gospel history, wrote
"It is allowed not to have been written by the son himself nor by his apostles, but long after by some unknown men who, lest they should be suspected of writing things they knew nothing of, gave to their books the names of the Apostles."
But of course you know more than theologians? But yet you bring no proof?
Read the following, Paul was referencing the Scripture in his Epistles.
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.If you did research, you would have realised until ad.180 the new testament wasn't considered "inspired"
"The conception of a Catholic canon was realized about the same time as that of a Catholic Church. One hundred and seventy years from the coming of Christ elapsed before the collection of the New Testament books assumed a form that carried with it the idea of holy and inspired" (Ibid., 136).
During the first half of the second century "the New Testament writing did not stand on the same level with the Old, and were not yet esteemed sacred and inspired like the Jewish Scriptures" (Ibid., 122).
Paul could easily be referring to the torah, remember in the gospel supposedly the "scriptures" prophecy jesus dying on the cross for 3 days and saving our sins(Christians believe isaiah 53 and the story of jonah refer to "christ death" which I will provide a link with refutes that clearly)
http//www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=48&Itemid=373
You probably still believe the gospels were written by disciples of jesus!
"The author, indeed, must ever remain unknown" (Introduction to New Testament, p. 72).
I'll provide proof on the bottom that even christian church fathers never called the nt "scriptures", paul could also be referring to an oral transmitting.
Our oldest gospels are in greek, jesus spoke aramaic and so did his disciples, they were poor I doubt they could speak two languages.
When did Paul live, ca 5 - 67 AD. So the Gospels that we have today actually existed before 67AD.
Scholars have something different to say, and there is no historical proof of what you just said, that's a conjecture, Paul probably existed around that time, but like I showed above the new testament wasn't considered "inspired" until much later.
Cool - an internal reference to the truth of that Bible. Does anything like that exist in the Quran? So much is made on the number of Books accepted by the different Christian groups- that doesn't matter!! What does- the 4 Gospels were always considered the GOSPEL Truth.
They can't all be "God's inspired book", I guess the holy spirit forgot to leave a sheet behind to tell them which were the true gospels or not.
Have you ever read anything about Polycarp or the students of the original disciples?
Oh and don't make the mistake of combining the Gospel and New Testament into one entity- LOL! I know how you like the number 1!! The Gospel is a part of the New Testament.
Noone denies that there was a gospel, what muslims deny is that the gospel of jesus is the true one, would you like to talk about apocalypse of peter where it denies jesus resurection and many christians believed in it in the 2nd century? So how do you know the gospel of peter was wrong and your gospel is right, when we don't have proof from the words of jesus.
"No certain trace of existence of the Fourth Gospel can be found till after Justin Martyr, ie., till after the middle of the second century" (Intro. New Test., ii. 520).
Of course, if it were not written till 140 or 150 A.D., the Apostle John could not have been its author, for he was dead long before that. I will have to do more research on Polycarp, but when he lived, there is no proof that new testament started to be cannonized, of course there were people that believed jesus was god and some that said he wasn't. That matter would be settled at council of nicea
In the same period, Polycarp wrote a letter which cites "Jesus" for certain sayings a hundred times, and the sayings match closely those appearing in the Gospels (and even things written in numerous Epistles, which were not originally attributed to Jesus), but he does not name any sources (M 59-61). We see the authority of oral tradition is again elevated above the written--like all the previous authors, no NT text is called scripture, though many OT texts are, and the only cited source for NT information is the report of 'unnamed' evangelists (Epistle of Polycarp, 4.3). Him being disciple of John is debated and actually there were many Johns.
"Textual criticism has been employed to discredit the true dates of the present Gospels (i.e., to make them earlier than they really were), and the most exaggerated descriptions have been given of the frequent transcriptions of the text and its great corruption in the second century (i.e., the believers say the evidence of the late dates are corruptions of the second century)?But the evidence in favor of the authors traditionally assigned to the Gospels and some of the Epistles, is still uncertain. A wide gap intervenes between eye-witnesses of the apostles or apostolic men that wrote the sacred books, and the earliest Fathers who assert such authorship. The traditional bridge between them is a precarious one" (Canon, 159)
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LOL! the proof is in the Holy Bible. Check it out instead of following what some "scholars" from the 1800's have said LOL!! The knowledge of the history of the Bible has grown hugely in the past 200 years!
You are confusing the spurious books with the Gospels. All spurious books have been proven to not be from GOD. They were forgeries, written much later, or could not be proven to be the inspired Word of GOD the way the true Gospel can be proved.
Remember the Gospel is just a part of the New Testament- It is the Gospel that the Quran validates. So you believe that the Quran is a lying? Interesting. I am not questioning the Quran the way you are, simply saying it is in the interpretation of the Quran that is suspect. The only way you can defend the Quran is attacking the Holy Bible? Lacking the knowledge of the truth of the Bible there is nothing else you can do.
I understand that you and all Muslims maybe unnerved by my interpretation of the Quran. You have learned the teaching through a very narrow view. LOL!! the word for the day conjecture!! Exactly!!
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LOL! the proof is in the Holy Bible. Check it out instead of following what some "scholars" from the 1800's have said LOL!! The knowledge of the history of the Bible has grown hugely in the past 200 years!
Actually many people doubted the church authority before the 1800s, but they got killed and their written testimony was destroyed by the catholic church.
Actually I'll link you to thread where it shows church fathers accusing each other of forgery from the 2nd-3rd century. How is this not "proof"http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597721.0
Even the validity of the bible in the first few centuries was in question as you can see!
You are confusing the spurious books with the Gospels. All spurious books have been proven to not be from GOD. They were forgeries, written much later, or could not be proven to be the inspired Word of GOD the way the true Gospel can be proved.
The only thing that is a forgery is the gospels itself, sir. You still haven't prove to me that they were written during jesus time or by his gospels, can you explain to me why the oldest fragments are in greek when jesus and his disciples spoke Aramaic?Remember the Gospel is just a part of the New Testament- It is the Gospel that the Quran validates. So you believe that the Quran is a lying? Interesting. I am not questioning the Quran the way you are, simply saying it is in the interpretation of the Quran that is suspect. The only way you can defend the Quran is attacking the Holy Bible? Lacking the knowledge of the truth of the Bible there is nothing else you can do
I agree gospel is just part of new testament, yes the qu'ran shows what was change in the bible and what wasn't. I'm saying the gospel in the bible isn't the words jesus taught and the qu'ran doesn't say it is the words jesus taught. We lost the true words jesus taught due to none of it being written down. Your mad at me by attacking the bible, you should be mad at the church fathers who attacked the bible in the 2nd century! By the way, I was a christian before I read the quran and I had read the bible fully, it's because of the type of inaccuracy and inconsistency in the cannonization of the bible which I have shown in the above few posts which is why I converted to the qu'ran.
I understand that you and all Muslims maybe unnerved by my interpretation of the Quran. You have learned the teaching through a very narrow view. LOL!! the word for the day conjecture!! Exactly!!
You have no interpretation of the qu'ran you thought it said jesus died on the cross! The rest of your statement has no weight because I have read the bible. I'm still waiting for you to show me proof that the gospels were written during jesus time or maybe some more scholar quotes may help?
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LOL! again using arguments that your Quran can not stand up to.
http//www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/peshitta_interlinear.htm
LOL!! The disciples spoke and wrote in aramaic and greek! A few of the disciples were very learned men, Luke was a physician. LOL!!
http//www.biblestudy.org/basicart/unique-phrase-confirms-historical-accuracy-of-bible.html
How does unique Greek phrase confirm the historical accuracy of the Bible?
On one of their missionary journeys, Paul and Silas came to Thessalonica in Macedonia (part of Northern Greece). We read in the book of Acts that,"As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 172, NIV).
His preaching, with God's blessing, was so successful that,"Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women" (Acts 174 NIV).
However, the Jews of the city were not happy about this and stirred up a mob, that attacked the house of Jason while looking for Paul and Silas. When they failed to find them, they dragged Jason and other followers of Christ before the 'city officials' (Acts 176, NIV; Strong's Concordance #G4173).The interesting thing here is that the Greek word used for 'city officials' is politarchs, which means rulers of a city. It is not found anywhere else in the Greek literature that survives. Therefore we have this Greek word politarch, used to describe these 'city officials' that is unique to the Biblical record.
The remarkable fact is that in 1835 an inscription was found with this very word on it. It was built into a Roman arch that spanned the Egnatian Way on the western side of Thessalonica. The arch was destroyed in 1867, but the block of marble with the inscription on it was saved and is now in the British Museum. The inscription shows that in Paul's time Thessalonica was indeed governed by rulers called politarchs, and the names of six of these 'city rulers' are shown on this stone.
The use of this word by Luke, the writer of The Acts of the Apostles, was unique in referring to the city rulers in the area of Macedonia at that time. For those who love the Bible, the research of the archaeologist and other scholars, has resulted in another amazing confirmation of the historical accuracy of God's Word.
I already did- we know when St. Paul lived, he references the Scripture mentioning Jesus' death, so we know the Gospels were written before 67Ad when Paul died.
LOL!! No I am not mad at you. I am surprised how Muslims attack the Bible when the Quran validates it. Muslims when they first recieved the Quran never said the Bible was corrupt until around the year 1,000 , so the 2 scriptures jived. LOL! fast forward to today and all of a sudden our Bible is corrupted when the Quran NEVER says such a hideous thing.
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There is no reason for a Muslims to attack the Bible.
005.046
YUSUFALI And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).005.047
YUSUFALI Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.005.048
YUSUFALI To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you -
FAR - Those were the GOD inspired words of eyewitnesses to the event. Do you own a Bible?
Bibles...? Do I even own a quran? I did but I don't what happened to that little copy. Though there's a small red one in my room collecting dust and one quran also collecting dust probably on the same shelf.
Do I need to own a copy? No, as they're easily available online.
All I need to do is memorize the text and the commentary by heart.
Yes, you are a Quran only Muslim!! That is a good point!
Such a term as "quranist" or "quran only" goes against the teaching of Quran 3032. I do not call myself these terms.
There is a difference between hadith and eyewitnesses though, we have much of the GOD inspired original writings of the eyewitneses. Hadith was passed down orally for a couple of hundred years before it was written down. No one has a solid back up that an event ever happened. In the Gospels you have the 4 to validate each other.
Sir... please refer to the article here regarding the acceptance of oral events
http//www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/504/cosmic_debris.htmlAnyway your Quran validates the Gospel!!
Which Gospel? You got a Gospel of Jesus? Then show it.
As for the Quran validating the gospel, that's not the same as validating the certain misconceptions by some people.
Some prophecies of Jesus
Psalm 22
For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him
may your hearts live forever!27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him
those who cannot keep themselves alive.30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn
for he has done it.Zechariah 12
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.I wonder if this verse is why the Gnostics believed that Jesus was a spirit only?
Are any of those supposed to be of Jesus's words? Let the saviour speak.
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There were many Gospels running around, some which even said Jesus wasn't GOD.
RT, is there any Gospels which said Jesus WAS GOD????
It's quite strange and almost impossible to imagine a 'jewish guy' in the middle of 'jewish community' claiming to the jews that I AM GOD / I AM YHVH.
There's HUGE difference on the "GOD" concept within the Jewish and the Paganistic culture.
And when the two cultures mixed up... poof.. we got a jewish guy considered as a new God by the pagans (to unite the roman empire).
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RT, is there any Gospels which said Jesus WAS GOD????
It's quite strange and almost impossible to imagine a 'jewish guy' in the middle of 'jewish community' claiming to the jews that I AM GOD / I AM YHVH.
There's HUGE difference on the "GOD" concept within the Jewish and the Paganistic culture.
And when the two cultures mixed up... poof.. we got a jewish guy considered as a new God by the pagans (to unite the roman empire).
bravo I completely agree... I've never seen any Gospels where Jesus claims to be "GOD". This is something that pagan Roman tradition promoted, and it spread into the Christian doctrine, most likey through Paul, who was the biggest promoter in the Biblical cannon of rejection of the Jewish law, their biggest commandment being the acknowledgement of God's oneness. When Jewish law and paganism mixed, they created "Christianity"...
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We are off topic but I'm ok with it. Of course it goes back to interpretations of the verses.
Why stone Jesus for this statement?
John 8
57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
And this one?
John 10
30I and the Father are one."31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 12
26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
John 12
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 6
32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 8
12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Getting back to the thread and one of my favorites
John 10
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep
John 11
21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day.
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We are off topic but I'm ok with it. Of course it goes back to interpretations of the verses.
Why stone Jesus for this statement?
John 8
-- cutted --Ah all of your citation is from the "Gospel According To John" a problematic, different of its own, hellenized and anti-jewish Gospel.
Written in eloquent Greek probably by a non-jews or perhaps a hellenized Jews circa 100 AD.None from the synoptic Gospel? (Mark, Matt, Luke)
There are no record of "The Jews Hate Jesus" or even throw stones to Jesus in the synoptic Gospel (Mark, Matt, Luke).
In the synoptic;
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the common Jews Loves Jesus!... and why shouldn't they?? the young rebbe and his companion is offering them free healing and medical services!!
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Iashua the young carpenter turned rebbe has rise to a 'celebrity level' of popularity within a short period and has became a 'rebbe' within the Pharisees controlled and very prestigious Jerusalem temple (Beyt Elohym), and many jews flocks to the temple to hear his teaching and gives him a warm welcome upon entering Jerusalem..
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The popularity of this young and charismatic rebbe, has upsetted many rebbes within the Sanhedrin, in which back then were mainly populated from the "Shammai" school of thought. Due to envy and viewed as a threat of their established position, the head priest of the Sanhedrin (Yosef Ben Caiaphas, a disciple of Shammaism) plotted a scheme to end the popularity of the young and charismatic rebbe. But they can't do it by themselves, as it will upset the common jewish folks; so they ask the romans to do it... Thus the young rebbe was sentenced death by the romans through romanisque-style of crucifixion..
But the young rebbe somehow survived the crucifixion, possibly through the help and ingenious plot of a jewish guy which is also a member of the Sanhedrin named Yosef of Arimathea..
Salam / Shalom / Peace
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bravo I completely agree... I've never seen any Gospels where Jesus claims to be "GOD". This is something that pagan Roman tradition promoted, and it spread into the Christian doctrine, most likey through Paul, who was the biggest promoter in the Biblical cannon of rejection of the Jewish law, their biggest commandment being the acknowledgement of God's oneness. When Jewish law and paganism mixed, they created "Christianity"...
Salaam
Jews are thinking again about Jesus
?Jesus the Jew? will be shown on Channel 4 as part of the Christianity series at 7pm on Sunday January 11 London TV,
Don?t turn away ? Jesus was ours
From The Jewish Chronicle
Howard Jacobson
January 8, 2009
It is a cultural obligation for us to get the man Christians call the Son of God into contextSo Ahmadinejad ? in his Christmas Day address to the British public ? thinks Jesus would have been on his side. I have news for him. Jesus would no more have been on his side than the Holocaust never happened. Jesus was a patriotic Jew ? not quite the freedom fighter Jews living under Roman occupation were hoping for but a prophet of the Jewish people, a devout believer in the Jewish God and stringent preacher of His law, a fierce ethical polemicist, a lover of peace but in so angry and ironic a spirit that it sometimes feels the opposite of peace. Maybe too Jewish in that case ? but that is to make another point.
I argue this in a Channel 4 film to be shown this Sunday, Jesus the Jew. Forty years ago, while teaching English at King David High School in Manchester, I got into a spot of bother with my pupils? parents for saying something similar. It had disturbed me that when Jesus?s name came up in the course of a class on John Donne or DH Lawrence ? it doesn?t matter which study English literature and you?ll hit upon Jesus ? the overwhelming response was angry embarrassment. Jesus was not someone my pupils felt they should be asked to talk or even know about.
I don?t say I understood nothing of their feelings. Jews have crowded memories enough; there are some things we would rather forget. But Jewish or not, high-school children of 15 and 16 were culturally obliged, it seemed to me ? obliged to themselves no less ? to be informed about Jesus and not to be thrown into confusion by his name.
So I got them to write an essay on Jesus. ?Over our dead bodies,? a number of the parents responded. A few rang the headmaster. If this was what was meant by a Jewish education they would have to consider taking their children elsewhere. Let them, was my attitude. Religion is no excuse for ignorance.
But the school, of course, thought differently. They were not going to allow a mass exodus on account of Jesus Christ. Not again.
Of the pupils who did write the essay, many rehashed the scurrilous defamations of Jesus which have circulated within Judaism for centuries. To keep it brief ? Jesus (real name Yoshkie) was the son of a whore, a bastard who abused the rabbis assigned to teach him, engaged in all manner of blasphemy and lewdness, and was finally kicked out of yeshivah.
For what he went on to do by way of revenge on the Jewish people ? ie invent Christianity (so be careful who you throw out of yeshivah) ? he now sits for all eternity in boiling excrement.
That this is no more than answering like with like, given the libels Christians have visited on Jews for two thousand years, I accept. Christianity has been our calamity; it would be no surprise, all things considered, if we were to tell viler stories still. But it is depressing, nonetheless, to see us fail, when challenged to be serious, to rise above the ugly superstitious libels of those who have superstitiously libelled us.
Intellectually, we might just as well be sitting in boiling excrement ourselves. Not only does our reluctance to engage with Jesus shut us out from knowledge of other religions ? and that was what I hated about the shrinking and revulsion I encountered at King David the gating of ourselves in ? it denies us access to a crucial chapter in the history of our own.
For no matter what has been done subsequently in his name, the truth is that Jesus spoke as a Jew, for Jews and to Jews ? exclusively to Jews, he often claimed (?I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel?) ? and was not only innocent of Christianity but would have railed against it.
?I believe with Jesus,? Martin Buber wrote, ?but I don?t believe in him.? Believing ?in? him is of course impossible for us, because believing in him means believing he was the son of God. This would have been impossible for Jesus, too. He never blasphemed against the One God by claiming to be his Son. And never claimed to be setting up a rival religion. A renewed Judaism was his goal, a Judaism re-affirmed according to the word of God, in fulfilment of His laws and in Messianic expectation of His coming.
We forget that the Messiah was a Jewish concept, and baptism a Jewish ritual. The words have grown alien to us by association, or, if you like, by misappropriation. I am not suggesting we go knocking on the gates of the Vatican and asking for our Jesus back. But we should be historians, at least, of our own wisdom. We need that wisdom today, but then when do we not?
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Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped
Matthew 9
18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew 2
11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.Matthew 14
33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; -
Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped
Matthew 9
18While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matthew 2
11On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.Matthew 14
33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him;In greek worship simply means to kiss someones feet or hand not the same worship as in english. Different CULTURES, if you blew someone a kiss they considered that a worship. Nice try
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What difference does it make. Just leave God's business to God. Stick to the MUHKAMAAT & leave the MUTASHABIHAAT to Him alone. He Explains them if He Deems rightful to do so in due time. Just summit yourself to God alone and study The Qur'an carefully and on a regular basis and follow It's straight forward verses and try to be a righteous constructive well intended Muslim. Start with what is possible and available. Start small, but start moving. Do not sit and just blabber mouth. Our tongue is going to be responsible in Judgment too. With salaam, Khalil.
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John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Did you catch verse John1033? Eyewitnesses are telling us that Jesus is claiming to be GOD!!
Acts 759
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."An apostle praying to Jesus, as if Jesus were GOD!?!
John 20
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Jesus did not say no Thomas I am not GOD!!