I want to know the truth about what the Quran says about messengers

moslem

we have 3 so called messengers on this site alone, and they deny each other, all we can do is wait and see what proofs they have, if for me i find that it is acceptable i will take it.

Peace,
Is that true ???
Who r those 3 people ??

belH

salam,
its funny how people are willing to accept new messengers but will not accept rashad khalifa as one........... brickwall

Peace Anna
According to Quran, no one can delete or add a single verse to it; but when RK decided to delete to verses, He was wrong, and therefore, no one should follow him. Read the next verse (focus on the red part)

379 It is not for a human that God would give him the Scripture and the authority and the prophethood, then he would say to the people ?Be servants to me rather than God!?, rather ?Be devotees for what you have been taught of the Scripture, and for what you studied.?

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Anna,

its funny how people are willing to accept new messengers but will not accept rashad khalifa as one........... brickwall

What's funny to me is how people often accept Dr. Rashad Khalifa's teachings, yet they reject him because the only thing they associate with his ideologies is the alleged removal of 2 verses from the Quran. If people actually looked at the authentic ideologies of Rashad instead of judging him and claiming that he removed Quranic verses, many of them would become believers.

Peace BelH,

According to Quran, no one can delete or add a single verse to it; but when RK decided to delete to verses, He was wrong, and therefore, no one should follow him.

This is completely wrong, brother, WRONG. The scripture does NOT say that nothing can be added to or deleted from only the Quran... What do I mean by this? Let's examine the scripture...

Surely, we have revealed this scripture, and surely, we will preserve it. (159)

It's absolutely ridiculous that people interpret this to be referring to the Quran specifically. This clearly says that it will be preserved by Allah because "we have revealed this scripture"... Didn't Allah also reveal the Torah and the Gospel? Yet, you say they have been altered. Based on the context, this verse implies that ALL of God's scripture is preserved. So, why don't you believe the other scriptures to be preserved? Do you think God is a liar? Also, look at this scripture, which implies the same thing

The disbelievers rejected this message when it came to them, though it is a profound scripture. No falsehood can enter it, through addition or deletion, for it is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy. (4141-42)

This scripture states it even more plainly. It gives the statement (i.e. "No falsehood can enter it...&quot, and then it gives the reason (i.e. "for/because it is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy&quot. Now, since the Torah, Gospel, and Statute Book are all revelations from God, this means they are ALL preserved. What you are neglecting is the format in which they are preserved. According to 8522, they are kept secure in a "lawh mahfuz"/preserved tablet. So, the question is WHERE IS THIS TABLET? Is it on the Earth? Is it with Allah? Maybe you should ask yourself this. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that all the copies and translations of the scriptures would be preserved and kept from alteration. This is a ridiculous misinterpretation. It says the actual "revelations" of God (i.e. the ORIGINALS) would be preserved. For us, Allah has given us a way to determine the true words of His revelations and to separate them from the fabrications. With regards to the originals, do you know the locations of the original revelations of Allah, or do you know where the "preserved tablets" are located?

By the way, it's pretty interesting to me that this word (i.e. "lawh&quot has the same root as the word "lawaha", used in 7429, right before the words, "On it is nineteen" (7430). Is this a coincidence?

Peace,

Ahmad

anna

Peace Anna
According to Quran, no one can delete or add a single verse to it; but when RK decided to delete to verses, He was wrong, and therefore, no one should follow him. Read the next verse (focus on the red part)

379 It is not for a human that God would give him the Scripture and the authority and the prophethood, then he would say to the people ?Be servants to me rather than God!?, rather ?Be devotees for what you have been taught of the Scripture, and for what you studied.?

OK FOR THE LAST TIME HE DID NOT REMOVE ANY VERSES.......they never were part of the quran to begin with... so he never removed anything, and i have said this before the title that mohamad is given in the verse 128 can ONLY and ONLY and ONLY how many onlyies do i need to say,only belong to god..... the quran is a spiritualu book and every word in it is precise to the dot...... why in all of the quran we only find this title used for mohamad and nowhere else, and dont show me ayat i know the quran from one end to the other, second is it just concidence that bismillah is not found in that specifc chapter, or are we to assume god for the heck of it did not put bismillah, or maybe justttttttt maybe he knows the future and knew that there will bea time when someone added to the quran and this is one of the clues to prove it, not to mention there are others as in these 2 verses were makiyat and his last sermon was in madina yet the whole chapter came down in medina.... there is enough evidence to prove that these 2 verses are fake, for those who are truely sincere to the truth...
and donot tell me that god said he protected the quran and if these were not quran then he didnt protect it...... first of all gods word was protect from the day it came down and mind you these 2 verses were the last added after mohamads death but the hidden miracle which rashad khailfa discovered, discovered .... he did not wake up one day and say oh lets look for the 19 number......... it didnt go down that way
he was checking for the letters of the quran anaylizing in the computer and by concidence he discovered the code so it was the code that came to him.... as god wished it
and so through the code 19 it was yet again discovered not him waking up one day saying well im going to take some ayat out of the quran, lets see which ones should i take out today..... no no it didnt go down like that either
that these verses were not part of the quran........................................
now people can argue this till they have no breathe left in them. so be it, but it will change nothing, god is not going to change his ways because a few people are to arrogant to accept a messenger, its not bad enough they wont even look at his translation, so now even his translation is not worthy.............please people everyone elses is.....
in any case lan tahdi man a7babit inna allah yahdi man yasha2

belH

they never were part of the quran to begin with... so he never removed anything

Nowhere in the Quran does it say that all the copies and translations of the scriptures would be preserved and kept from alteration. This is a ridiculous misinterpretation. It says the actual "revelations" of God (i.e. the ORIGINALS) would be preserved.

Peace all
I have request for you (anna and Bilal, and any 19ers), can you answer the following

First, did RK remove 9-128 & 129 from the Quran that He Believed in and then called the new version the Pure Quran, or did He find a Version that Does not have 9-128 & 129 that He Called it the Pure Version?

Second, Would you Testify that Rashad Kalifa is a True Messenger of God?

anna

Peace all
I have request for you (anna and Bilal, and any 19ers), can you answer the following

First, did RK remove 9-128 & 129 from the Quran that He Believed in and then called the new version the Pure Quran, or did He find a Version that Does not have 9-128 & 129 that He Called it the Pure Version?

Would you Testify that Rashad Kalifa is a True Messenger of God?
)

i am a submitter, i submit myself to god alone and his last chapter of the mother book that lays with god in heaven
i beleive rashad was a messenger of god and no i dont have the, what quran was it? i have never heard of any version of the quran this is the first time i hear about it, but just so you know i have my own quran that i recieved 20 years ago as a wedding gift and if you look at chapter 9 in my quran i have the last to verses whited out......as of 5 years ago when i submitted
as a submitter i truley beleive that those 2 verses ARE NOT the word of god...................tsk tsk tsk am i hated now.... god says if the world is against you and you are rightous then god is with you... who else do i possibly need,absolutley NOONE.................
by the way im not a 19er or a quranist, or quran aloner, i am a submitter, beleive the only source to connect with god is the quran the last chapter... god tells us, INNA LDEEN 3INDILLAH HOWA L2ISLAMMMMM or in english SUBMISSION
i hope that answered your question

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace BelH,

First, did RK remove 9-128 & 129 from the Quran that He Believed in and then called the new version the Pure Quran, or did He find a Version that Does not have 9-128 & 129 that He Called it the Pure Version?

First of all, Dr. Khalifa didn't remove any verses from the Quran. I already explained this entire concept to you... When Rashad developed his translation, he admitted that his work was far from perfect. However, when he called it "pure", he was referring to it being free from fabricated verses. In other words, his translation was purely proportionate, and everything in it was verified by the Quran's proof.

Second, Would you Testify that Rashad Kalifa is a True Messenger of God?

I've already answered this for you as well. Allah is enough as a witness of His messengers, so I don't need to testify regarding his messengership. My shahaada is, "La ilaaha ila Allah" (There is no god but Allah).

Peace,

Ahmad

mmkhan

Salaamun All,

Peace all
I have request for you (anna and Bilal, and any 19ers), can you answer the following

First, did RK remove 9-128 & 129 from the Quran that He Believed in and then called the new version the Pure Quran, or did He find a Version that Does not have 9-128 & 129 that He Called it the Pure Version?

Second, Would you Testify that Rashad Kalifa is a True Messenger of God?

)

These testifications does not required actually. As Allah said

11120 AND out of all the accounts relating to the Messengers We convey unto thee that wherewith We make firm thy heart for through these comes the truth unto thee, as well as an admonition and a reminder unto all believers.

(11120)

When everything is told about THE Messengers, then what is the use of sending new THE Messengers?

Apart from that, Allah also said

53 FORBIDDEN to you is carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked, and the animal that has been strangled, or beaten to death, or killed by a fall, or gored to death, or savaged by a beast of prey, save that which you may have slaughtered while it was still alive; and all that has been slaughtered on idolatrous altars. And to seek to learn through divination what the future may hold in store for you this is sinful conduct. Today, those who , are bent on denying the truth have lost all hope of your religion do not, then, hold them in awe, but stand in awe of Me! Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me shall be your religion. As for him, however, who is driven by dire necessity and not by an inclination to sinning -behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

(53)

Do you think still THE Messengers can come. Rasools will come till the end of this world but ALRasools will not. This is what I believe.

Allah knows best.

Khan

moslem

by the way im not a 19er or a quranist, or quran aloner, i am a submitter, believe the only source to connect with god is the quran...
GOD tells us, INNA LDEEN 3INDILLAH HOWA L2ISLAMMMMM or in english SUBMISSION

WAW
Peace sister, i have became a fan of u ... )

anna

WAW
Peace sister, i have became a fan of u ... )

angel you sweet, i will give you my fanclub email....

unknownuser

i am a submitter, i submit myself to god alone and his last chapter of the mother book that lays with god in heaven
i beleive rashad was a messenger of god and no i dont have the, what quran was it? i have never heard of any version of the quran this is the first time i hear about it, but just so you know i have my own quran that i recieved 20 years ago as a wedding gift and if you look at chapter 9 in my quran i have the last to verses whited out......as of 5 years ago when i submitted
as a submitter i truley beleive that those 2 verses ARE NOT the word of god...................tsk tsk tsk am i hated now.... god says if the world is against you and you are rightous then god is with you... who else do i possibly need,absolutley NOONE.................
by the way im not a 19er or a quranist, or quran aloner, i am a submitter, beleive the only source to connect with god is the quran the last chapter... god tells us, INNA LDEEN 3INDILLAH HOWA L2ISLAMMMMM or in english SUBMISSION
i hope that answered your question

It is fairly sad that you feel the only way you can connect to our creator is through a book you most likely can barely read. Apologies if I'm wrong.

anna

It is fairly sad that you feel the only way you can connect to our creator is through a book you most likely can barely read. Apologies if I'm wrong.

technically its not the only way but it is the strongest, i like meditating late at night and just sitting with him, all alone...
and its not just a book, it his book his words, actually im bad at reading, i have managed to read it oh maybe a 100 times or so from beginning to end in arabic..if not more, so yes you are right im not very good at reading

khyaletanzim

Dear aalmakto,

Here is my understanding regarding the messenger matter. First of all let me summarize my Understanding "In the system of God everyone including prophets is told to follow living messenger in their time". Now i am going to prove my understanding from logic and the Quran.

logically it will be an injustice from God to all the other humans if that is not the case.

Starting with Quranic perspective.

Rashid Khalifa 238 We said, "Go down there from, all of you. When guidance comes to you from me, those who follow my guidance will have no fear, nor will they grieve.
We can easily conclude from the above verse that the Guidance is sure to come and it comes to the people from the God.

Now we have to determine that what are the types of guidance and how many. I have found two kind of guidance?s which are -

Basic guidance.
Explained guidance.
Let?s start with the basic guidance. Basic guidance is given through the clear verses of the book of God (Quran) and the explained guidance is through knowledge. The following verse explained in detail about both the guidance.

Khalifa 37 He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbour doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
According to my understanding the basic or the clear message is the part of the book which is indisputable when translated. When one tries to translate the clear or basic verses (signs) he will come to the conclusion that meanings remains the same.

In my understanding, basic understanding can be achieved by reading the basic or clear verses by anyone who reads the Quran but for the complete understanding(regarding allegoric verses) you need a knowledgeable person for explanation.

2269 He grants wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.
The above verse confirms that wisdom can be given to any human selected by God. In my understanding Messenger is the knowledgeable person. The necessity of the messenger is only to understand the message of the Quran completely. You can say when one wants to understand the God's system completely he needs the help of a messenger or knowledgeable person for complete understanding.

Next step is to find out how many kinds of messengers are there. For this please read the following verse
2275 God chooses messengers from angels and from men for God is He who hears and sees (all things).

Now we know that there are two kinds of messengers.

Human as a messenger
Angel as a messenger.

Khalifa 4034 Joseph had come to you before that with clear revelations, but you continued to doubt his message. Then, when he died you said, "GOD will not send any other messenger after him. (He was the last messenger)!" GOD thus sends astray those who are transgressors, doubtful.
The above verse is directly talking to the reader of the Quran because it says ?to you? which is the reader of the Quran. In the above verse it is clearly mentioned that those who say that no messenger will come after any of the messengers mentioned in Quran makes the person astray from the path of God.

3101 And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of God, and among you Lives the Apostle? Whoever holds firmly to God will be shown a way that is straight.
If you carefully read the above verse then you will find that verse is mentioning two points together and those points are 1. Verses are rehearsed to the people. 2. Apostle lives among the people. These two points coming together clearly gives an understanding that messenger is always there living among people. Verses 735 and 9128 clearly conclude that God tells us that ?messenger comes to the people or messenger lives among them? and it is a present situation not past or future matter.

God again tells us in the following parable the same message. The following verse clarifies that following one person (messenger or ordinary) is better than following many persons with different ideas and those men fight between themselves. Please do not confuse the two words believing and following.
3929 God puts forth a Parable a man belonging to many partners at variance with each other, and a man belonging entirely to one master are those two equal in comparison? Praise be to God! But most of them have no knowledge.]

Duty of the messenger is to preach or explain clearly 592 Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil) if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.Also see 1635, 1682, 2454, 2918, 3617 and 6412.

Now we come to the second part which clarifies that all the prophets were made to take oath that when the messenger will come to them (which means while they are alive) they have to follow him and help him. This verse makes it crystal clear that all the prophets took the oath of following the messenger. Following verse also clarifies that prophet and messenger are two different words.

381 Behold! God took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." God said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

In the following verse again God clearly talks about the covenant which is told in verse 381 and makes it clear that Prophet Mohammad is included in the covenant because in whole Quran there is no other covenant about prophets is mentioned therefore this verse can?t be taken as any other covenant God is talking about which in other words will dismiss the claim of so called leaders of Islam that prophet Mohammad was the last messenger because if Mohammad(PUBH) has to follow the messenger than how can he be the last messenger? For proof read the following verse.

337 Recall that we took from the prophets their covenant, including you (O Muhammad), Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary. We took from them a solemn pledge.
The above verses clearly explain that all the prophets had to follow the messenger including Prophet Mohammad. This verse also clarifies that prophet Ahmad (Mohammad) was included in the covenant with the prophets therefore he also took and agreed to the covenant of following messenger.

Following are the verses which are telling us that Moses did follow a person for knowledge. In the following verses you can clearly understand that Moses (Prophet) is asking a person to let Moses follow him to get the understanding of the knowledge of God given to that person.

1865 So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence.
1866 Moses said to him "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"

Following is the verse which is hinting that prophet Ahmad (Mohammad) going to another person which is clear hint to prove the above claim that ?prophets need to follow the messenger?. The following verse also clarifies that Messenger is not God and Quran is not from the messenger but From God.
16103 we know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

Other verses which leads to the conclusion that messengers are always present at all times for guidance are following.

(2351 O you messengers, eat from the good provisions, and work righteousness. I am fully aware of everything you do.) Please note that " O you Messengers" is direct speech to the messengers and If there are no more messengers to come then this verse with a collective addressing to the messengers will be useless. You can also derive from the above verse that there are ?messengers? at all times and not one messenger.
(4051 Most, surely, we help Our Messengers and those who believe, both in the present life and on the day when the witnesses will stand forth.) This verse also includes messengers and believers together which also constitutes more believers and messenger to come.

I hope that will clarify the Doubts regarding the matter of Messenger.

Regards.

belH

I hope that will clarify the Doubts regarding the matter of Messenger.

Regards.

May God Bless you and increase your Wisdom.

AlFajr

Peace bro khyaletanzim,
Thanks for the verses. I agree with the verses that are clear. However some verses I believe are clearly specific to a particular time period e.g.
40.34 is what the believing man said to the Egyptians.

Also verses like 3101 appear to be addressing just the "Sahaba" (for lack of a better term).

At the moment I am still leaning towards the view that Muhammad is not the "last" as there are no verses that indicate otherwise (the opposing view have not posted anything conclusive). God has always sent messengers. If he has stopped than I think he would have clearly said so.

AlFajr

It is fairly sad that you feel the only way you can connect to our creator is through a book you most likely can barely read. Apologies if I'm wrong.

2135 And they said ?Be Jews or Nazarenes so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of those who set up partners.?

Abraham didn't need a book. But some people want to follow his creed yet do not have the same wisdom and intellect. They can follow it by following the Quran.
The book is a mercy to those who appreciate it.

1057 O mankind, advice has come to you from your Lord and a remedy for what is in the chests, and a guidance and mercy for the believers.
1782 And We send down from the Qur?an what is a healing and mercy to the believers. And it only increases the wicked in their loss.

khyaletanzim

Dear aalmakto,

My understanding Regarding Sign(aya) is the Following.

Sign is not time bound and each sign is for us to understand the system. If that would mot have been the case then almost 40% of the verses are about past and explaining Himself 30% about believers and followers of Prophet and rest of it is divided between ordinary human and disbelievers. This will lead to a conclusion that there is very small info for us.

In my understanding sign on its own has an understanding and gathering together of the similar signs or the context can also help clarifying the message. I could not find any verse where some kind of message is not been understood if taken on its own. If you can point out any then i can rethink about my understanding.

I personally take the Quran as an explanation of a system to reach God or way to God. So my Approach is that it must be consistent at all times other wise it will be unjust environments for judgments. There can be a different calculation system of giving points to deeds but either way signs have their own values specially according to 37 which differentiate the verse into two categories.

Regarding the verses 4034 and 3101. if we take those signs for people you mention even then the verse 381 on its own clarifies that Prophets which are getting the revelations are told to follow the messenger and verse 337 telling us that Prophet Muhammad who was a messenger also was told to follow the messenger which clearly constitutes that following a messenger is necessity even for the Prophets. God also tells us at many places that we should follow the messenger. There is not one place where we are told to follow the prophets. We are clearly told to follow the God(which is to follow the revelations) and follow the messenger.

Regards.

mmkhan

Salaamun Aalmakto & Khyaletanzim,

Peace bro khyaletanzim,
Thanks for the verses. I agree with the verses that are clear. However some verses I believe are clearly specific to a particular time period e.g.
40.34 is what the believing man said to the Egyptians.

Also verses like 3101 appear to be addressing just the "Sahaba" (for lack of a better term).

Yes I agree with Aalmakto... 4034 is not a stand alone verse in context with what brother Khyal quoted as per my understanding, but it is a part of a chapter. This chapter starts from 4023 and goes on...

And 3101, is like 1723 - 24. What if anyone don't have their parents alive?

At the moment I am still leaning towards the view that Muhammad is not the "last" as there are no verses that indicate otherwise (the opposing view have not posted anything conclusive). God has always sent messengers. If he has stopped than I think he would have clearly said so.

Have to tried understanding the verse that I have quoted before brother? i.e., 11120.

Please let me know what you understand. And most importantly, are you looking for Rasools or AlRasools. AlRasools are appointed by Allah and Rasools are self made, so please take a look at that point too.

InshaAllah, it may be of some help.

May Allah correct us where ever we goes wrong and guide us all towards the path that He has chosen for us. pr

Khan

drfazl

it is the whole umma, becuase if you look at the ayat before it is talking about the day of judgement

Each umma on the Day of judgment will be brought with the witness i.e. with its respective messenger; and the messenger will then say "O my God! My people have totally rejected the Quran."

drfazl

Some people dont see the need for any more messengers.

The messenger cannot inspire except by Gods leave. Any whom God chooses to be inspired by the messenger will recieve inspiration from the messenger.

It is not for God to speak to any human except threw inspiration or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. In 4251, a messenger is someone God might send to inspire anyone God pleases by His leave. In 4252, God inspired to you a revelation of His command. Made as a light to guide whomever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path. New messengers may be sent so that they can inspire. We need inspiration. To reject this messenger without knowledge is to reject God because the messenger is one way that God uses to speak to us. Thoe it seems that no more messengers will come, they will if God chooses to speak to the human using this method. There are three ways God speaks to the human. And threw a messenger is one way He does this.

Proof-

4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is Most High, Wise.

God will send a messenger to inspire whomever He wills by His leave. Or He may speak to one by direct inspiration, or from behind a barrier. If God chooses to speak to you, it is not for Him to do so except threw the above mentioned methods.

peace

Such messengers are there in your town and in all languages; and in every nation; and in every capital cities. It is for the people of the particular town or nation or the people speaking the same lingua to identify their respective rasuls. And who shall identify their rasuls are those who have the knowledge of the Book already. Who shall reject the messengers are those who do not have the knowledge of the Book.
.