The true Islam
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I was just discussing the number of prayers. Please visit http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597462.0 (three prayer argument)
Peace
The true number of prayers is 2. Read about them at;Peace
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Peace hpesc,
Heres a link to the true Islam;
What makes you think this is the "true" Islam? True Islam is total submission to Allah, and it is worship to Him alone in true monotheism... And if there are only 2 prayers, then what is the "wusta"/middle/best prayer (223? That same verse mentions observing the "salawat", which refers to MORE THAN TWO prayers. So, how can you say there are only two? Where is your evidence to support this?
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace AB,
Hate to break it to you, but detailed discussion has taken place on the number of "salat" and the strongest contender by far is a minimum of 2 per day. As far I'm aware, no long term member disagrees with this.
Of course, I know that it is irrelevant who or how many agree with 2 or not, my point is if this many people who have read the detailed discussions think it's 2, then I strongly recommend doing significant research if you feel it is not 2.
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Peace Wakas,
Hate to break it to you, but detailed discussion has taken place on the number of "salat" and the strongest contender by far is a minimum of 2 per day. As far I'm aware, no long term member disagrees with this.
Of course, I know that it is irrelevant who or how many agree with 2 or not, my point is if this many people who have read the detailed discussions think it's 2, then I strongly recommend doing significant research if you feel it is not 2.
I appreciate your guidance on this issue, but I've also thoroughly researched this issue, and I've seen the many arguments regarding Salaat on this forum. All of them fail to accurately acknowledge the study of the Quran/prayer/connection/salaat at NIGHT, which is described in 11114.
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed. (11114)
Now, even though this can be retranslated (or mistranslated) to refer to the morning and evening Salaat only, 1779 is clearly talking about a different one during the night. Since this mentions "extra credit/endeavor" (also translated as "beyond the call of duty" Salaat, this is possibly the "middle"/best Salaat mentioned in 2238. Most of the people who agree with the 2 Salaat theory have not thoroughly investigated it; some have considered it, but others only choose to agree with the majority, and this is improper.
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess. (6116)
Peace,
Ahmad
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If there was two, which days are you supposed to pray say, morning, sunset. And which, morning, evening, or sunset, evening? These are the times referred, when only 2 prayers are mentioned. A theory could be that these times were referred, because one of the times had just occured, at the time of revelation. Or some similar reason. In any case the logics of two prayers, is extremely weak.
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peace AB,
You are mistaken in your translation of 11114. For someone who has studied it thoroughly, seems like a poor mistake to make.
In any case, have you read this thread?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0Most of the people who agree with the 2 Salaat theory have not thoroughly investigated it; some have considered it, but others only choose to agree with the majority, and this is improper
Really? I guess we will see.
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Peace Wakas,
You are mistaken in your translation of 11114. For someone who has studied it thoroughly, seems like a poor mistake to make.
No, actually, I've already taken into account the literal translation of 11114 (i.e. zulufann min al-layl). However, "during the night" is the most basic translation of it. And considering how the night Salaat is already explained in other verses, "during the night" would also probably be the most appropriate. The literal would probably be closer to the "near parts of the night". Still, if there were only two prayers, the verse would say, "You shall observe the Salaat at the ends of the day." However, it doesn't; it makes mention of another one.
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace AB,
if there were only two prayers, the verse would say, "You shall observe the Salaat at the ends of the day."
Wrong. To simply provide a time for something is not practical, and since The Quran is very practical, it not only provides a time, but also a time-range, hence the use of "adjacent/near parts of the night / zulufann min al-layl".
What we must do is look at all verses discussing timing and see what the evidence is, and as I said before, the strongest contender by far is a minimum of 2.
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peace AB,
Wrong. To simply provide a time for something is not practical, and since The Quran is very practical, it not only provides a time, but also a time-range, hence the use of "adjacent/near parts of the night / zulufann min al-layl".
What we must do is look at all verses discussing timing and see what the evidence is, and as I said before, the strongest contender by far is a minimum of 2.
Peace
The practical is to indicate an approximate time. And this is what the Quran does. It is not a time-range though. There are three times here.
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Peace Wakas,
Wrong. To simply provide a time for something is not practical, and since The Quran is very practical, it not only provides a time, but also a time-range, hence the use of "adjacent/near parts of the night / zulufann min al-layl".
In literally translating, by just saying, "And keep up the salaat at the edges of the day...", it's already providing a time range. The edges (or ends) of the daytime are (1) morning and (2) evening. These are two clear time frames to keep up the salaat. By placing, "...and parts of the night" afterwards, it's obviously talking about a time period separate from the other two.
Also, "edges of the day" and "adjacent parts of the night" would fit together in one mold, and this would make perfect sense, if "zulfa" meant "adjacent". But it doesn't mean "adjacent", it means "near" or "part of" something. Therefore, if the verse said the "zulfa" of the night, it would literally be speaking about a part of the night, most applied to the near/beginning/onsetting part of it. This would also apply to "zulufan", which is a plural actually designating THREE OR MORE. The "adjacent" parts of the night would fit with the edges of the day if both were forming one designated time period, namely 2 frames (i.e. morning and evening). However, since "zulufan" is speaking about THREE OR MORE, there's no way it can apply to the same two times unless these are only part of it's time frame (i.e. morning, evening, and part of the night). So, either way, "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat.
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace AB,
Also, "edges of the day" and "adjacent parts of the night" would fit together in one mold, and this would make perfect sense, if "zulfa" meant "adjacent". But it doesn't mean "adjacent", it means "near" or "part of" something. Therefore, if the verse said the "zulfa" of the night, it would literally be speaking about a part of the night, most applied to the near/beginning/onsetting part of it. This would also apply to "zulufan", which is a plural actually designating THREE OR MORE. The "adjacent" parts of the night would fit with the edges of the day if both were forming one designated time period, namely 2 frames (i.e. morning and evening). However, since "zulufan" is speaking about THREE OR MORE, there's no way it can apply to the same two times unless these are only part of it's time frame (i.e. morning, evening, and part of the night). So, either way, "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat.
Before I comment any further, did you read the following or not?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991If you did, and still say "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat." then please disprove the above before I comment further.
Thanks.
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Peace Wakas,
Before I comment any further, did you read the following or not?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991Yes, I did.
If you did, and still say "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat." then please disprove the above before I comment further.
Wait, so you're saying "zulufan min al-layl" IS sunset?
I can understand how, since the night merges into the day, the near/beginning parts of the night could be regarded as sunset itself, and this is very logical. However, why would "wa" be used as a continuation marker instead of a dividing marker? For example, when interpreting
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day (at morning and evening), and the near parts of the night (at sunset). The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed. (11114)
This would provide a redundant statement, since sunset is regarded as part of the evening. If you're talking about salaat at (1) morning and (2) evening until the darkness of the night ("ghasaqi al-layl", this could make sense. But the word "wa"/and splits these times up, making that statement illogical.
Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it, as well as a group of those who are with you. And God measures the night and the day. He knows that you will not be able to keep-up, so He pardons you. So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God's bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the salaat and give zakaat and give God a loan of righteousness. And whatever you put forth yourselves, you will find it with God, for it is better and a greater reward. And seek God's forgiveness, for God is Forgiving, Merciful. (7320)
This speaks of reading the Quran in the same sense of upholding the salaat, and this is spoken of as being done by Mohammed and his followers (1) 2/3 of the night, (2) 1/2 of it, and (3) 1/3 of it. Now, this is clearly speaking about THREE distinct time periods, not a continuation.
Let's say, hypothetically, that "night"/layl equals 12 hours (i.e. 6pm-6am).
a. 12 x 2/3 = 8
b. 12 x 1/2 = 6
c. 12 x 1/3 = 4Since the scripture says that he would "rise" for the salaat, this is most likely speaking of the morning prayer (i.e. before sunrise), which is still considered part of the night. Later, the evening prayer would take place (i.e. at/after sunset), which is still considered the night. Now, the marker between the end of the night salaat and the morning salaat would be "half", or approximately around midnight. One-third of this would be 10pm, and two-thirds of this would be around 2am. Since there's no clear distinction of these times, since both are dark at night, God tells them that He knows 'they won't be able to keep up', and this is why He pardons them. This would form a clear indication of why the night salaat ("layl" is considered the "middle" AND "best" salaat - regardless of the translation, both these terms (223 would convey an accurate message about the night salaat. It is in the middle, directly between the evening and morning; and it is the best because it is "extra" (1779), and many are not able to "keep up" with completing it.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Wakas,
Where did you get this from?
It was said in the other topic you posted, by either you or Ayman...
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace AB,
Hate to break it to you, but detailed discussion has taken place on the number of "salat" and the strongest contender by far is a minimum of 2 per day. As far I'm aware, no long term member disagrees with this.
Of course, I know that it is irrelevant who or how many agree with 2 or not, my point is if this many people who have read the detailed discussions think it's 2, then I strongly recommend doing significant research if you feel it is not 2.
Salaam Wakas
Often people leave this forum because of the stubbornness of some long term members, and therefore their opinion has no bearing on what is a conclusive answer. Salat performed on the day of gathering clearly shows that there is a middle prayer, which was performed in congregation once a week, unless the day of gathering was not weekly but, perhaps on the feast of Hajj. The case of Suleyman who missed the middle prayer due to his preoccupation with the horses, strongly indicates the existence of this prayer.
peace
