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The true Islam

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    Mr_Deen
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    Peace hpesc.

    The prayers, are sometimes referred at different times. Sometimes, morning, midday,

    The time of revelation or recitation, might also have been a time of reciting the Quran.
    (Reading from the Quran, also constitutes prayer).
    So, when this had happened, God reminded them to keep up the other prayers.
    For instance, if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the morning, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be end-of-day/sunset/midday, and evening.
    Or if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the sunset, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be morning and evening.
    And similarly for evening.

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    • A Offline
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      Ahmad_Bilal
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      Peace Hpesc,

      This verse 2238 is a good verse and the meaning of it you maybe think that its a third prayer but its not. The meaning of this verse is to be careful with the prayers and then it refers to an already existing prayer wich is located between the day (nahar) and night(layl) wich is Isha. In the Quran 1 yaom contain nahar and layl and the layl is the covering of the nahar and in the middle of the yaom is Isha wich is wasat.

      This still doesn't change the fact that the directive is to keep up the SALAWAAT (more than 2 salaat observances). So, because of the word "salawaat" used in this instance, it means there are at least 3 prayers/communions per day, not two. Since the "salawaat" is separate from the "salaatu al wusta", it means that this "wusta" observance has special significance, which is in harmony with other verses calling the salaat observance during the night "extra". Whether you regard this "salaatu al wusta"/middle communion as occurring at noon or at midnight, either time would occur directly between the other 2 (i.e. morning and evening), making them both directly in the "middle".

      Peace,

      Ahmad

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      • H Offline
        H Offline
        hpesc
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        Peace Wakas,

        No, actually, I've already taken into account the literal translation of 11114 (i.e. zulufann min al-layl). However, "during the night" is the most basic translation of it. And considering how the night Salaat is already explained in other verses, "during the night" would also probably be the most appropriate. The literal would probably be closer to the "near parts of the night". Still, if there were only two prayers, the verse would say, "You shall observe the Salaat at the ends of the day." However, it doesn't; it makes mention of another one.

        Peace,

        Ahmad

        Peace
        The meaning of sura 11 verse 114 is not to explain the nr of prayers but it is to explain when to prayer wich according to this verse will be sun up, sun down and first part of the night wich is connected to sun down and together they make the night prayer wich is called Isha in the Quran.

        Peace

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        • H Offline
          H Offline
          hpesc
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          Peace

          The practical is to indicate an approximate time. And this is what the Quran does. It is not a time-range though. There are three times here.

          Peace
          There are three times here but only two prayers because two of these times are connected.

          Peace

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          • H Offline
            H Offline
            hpesc
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            Peace Wakas,

            In literally translating, by just saying, "And keep up the salaat at the edges of the day...", it's already providing a time range. The edges (or ends) of the daytime are (1) morning and (2) evening. These are two clear time frames to keep up the salaat. By placing, "...and parts of the night" afterwards, it's obviously talking about a time period separate from the other two.

            Also, "edges of the day" and "adjacent parts of the night" would fit together in one mold, and this would make perfect sense, if "zulfa" meant "adjacent". But it doesn't mean "adjacent", it means "near" or "part of" something. Therefore, if the verse said the "zulfa" of the night, it would literally be speaking about a part of the night, most applied to the near/beginning/onsetting part of it. This would also apply to "zulufan", which is a plural actually designating THREE OR MORE. The "adjacent" parts of the night would fit with the edges of the day if both were forming one designated time period, namely 2 frames (i.e. morning and evening). However, since "zulufan" is speaking about THREE OR MORE, there's no way it can apply to the same two times unless these are only part of it's time frame (i.e. morning, evening, and part of the night). So, either way, "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat.

            Peace,

            Ahmad

            Peace
            It explains to make 2 prayer at three times where two of these times are connected and together make the night prayer Isha.

            Peace

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            • H Offline
              H Offline
              hpesc
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              Salaam Wakas

              Often people leave this forum because of the stubbornness of some long term members, and therefore their opinion has no bearing on what is a conclusive answer. Salat performed on the day of gathering clearly shows that there is a middle prayer, which was performed in congregation once a week, unless the day of gathering was not weekly but, perhaps on the feast of Hajj. The case of Suleyman who missed the middle prayer due to his preoccupation with the horses, strongly indicates the existence of this prayer.
              peace

              Peace
              The night prayer Isha is in the middle of the day and the night.

              Peace

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              • H Offline
                H Offline
                hpesc
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                Peace hpesc.

                The prayers, are sometimes referred at different times. Sometimes, morning, midday,

                The time of revelation or recitation, might also have been a time of reciting the Quran.
                (Reading from the Quran, also constitutes prayer).
                So, when this had happened, God reminded them to keep up the other prayers.
                For instance, if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the morning, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be end-of-day/sunset/midday, and evening.
                Or if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the sunset, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be morning and evening.
                And similarly for evening.

                Peace
                Believe it or not but I still don't understand what you mean. From all the verses that include the actual word "salat" I only see two prayers who are named Fajr and Isha.

                Peace

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                • H Offline
                  H Offline
                  hpesc
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  Peace Hpesc,

                  This still doesn't change the fact that the directive is to keep up the SALAWAAT (more than 2 salaat observances). So, because of the word "salawaat" used in this instance, it means there are at least 3 prayers/communions per day, not two. Since the "salawaat" is separate from the "salaatu al wusta", it means that this "wusta" observance has special significance, which is in harmony with other verses calling the salaat observance during the night "extra". Whether you regard this "salaatu al wusta"/middle communion as occurring at noon or at midnight, either time would occur directly between the other 2 (i.e. morning and evening), making them both directly in the "middle".

                  Peace,

                  Ahmad

                  Peace
                  You interpretation is wrong. When it is said in the Quran "Be careful of your prayers" its not meant only to be careful of your two prayers or three prayer per day. It is meant in generally to be careful of prayers in generally every day of your life wich might mean 60000 prayers or more ore less.
                  Also wusta is simply Isha being between the day (nahar) and the night (layl)

                  Peace

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                  • M Offline
                    M Offline
                    Mr_Deen
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    Peace
                    Believe it or not but I still don't understand what you mean. From all the verses that include the actual word "salat" I only see two prayers who are named Fajr and Isha.

                    Peace

                    Ok, but I think it's quite probable, from the poetical build of the Quran, that "praise" also about prayer. And probably "glorify" aswell.

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                    • A Offline
                      A Offline
                      Ahmad_Bilal
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      Peace Hpesc,

                      You interpretation is wrong. When it is said in the Quran "Be careful of your prayers" its not meant only to be careful of your two prayers or three prayer per day. It is meant in generally to be careful of prayers in generally every day of your life wich might mean 60000 prayers or more ore less.

                      So, you also believe that "salawaat" is referring to all the salaat observances done in one's life? ) I've already explained how this is completely illogical. Look throughout the Qur'an where the salaat observances throughout one's entire life are mentioned, and I GUARANTEE they don't say, "Uphold the salawaat..." Why do you think that is? hmm Throughout the scriptures, when the Qur'an refers to our general salaat (i.e. throughout our lifetime), it simply uses the general term "salaat", not "salawaat" (THREE OR MORE).

                      Those who believe in the unseen and they keep up the communions/SALAAT and what we provide for them they spend. (23)

                      And seek support through patience and the communions/SALAAT; and it is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble. (245)

                      And keep up the communions/SALAAT and give the zakat and what you advance to yourselves in goodness. You will find it at Allah. Allah is watching what you do. (2110)

                      And those who hold fast the book, and keep up the communions/SALAAT. So we do not waste the reward of the righteous. (7170)

                      These verses are obviously not speaking about ONE salaat observance, they are speaking about general salaat (i.e. throughout one's lifetime). The word "salaat" (singular) is used to describe our general communion throughout our lifetime, and therefore, "salawaat" (plural) is referring to our daily salaat observances. If this number was two, it would instruct us to keep up the "salaatayn"/TWO COMMUNIONS. Instead, it says "salawaat"/THREE OR MORE COMMUNIONS, meaning there are obviously more than two salaat observances per day.

                      Peace,

                      Ahmad

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                      • H Offline
                        H Offline
                        hpesc
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        Ok, but I think it's quite probable, from the poetical build of the Quran, that "praise" also about prayer. And probably "glorify" aswell.

                        Peace
                        No. Praise God you can do whenever and not washed but prayer is only appointed times when you must be washed before it.

                        Peace

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                        • M Offline
                          M Offline
                          Mr_Deen
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          We'll just have to differ here. There is no compulsion in religion!

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                          • A Offline
                            A Offline
                            Ahmad_Bilal
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            Peace Hpesc,

                            Praise God you can do whenever and not washed but prayer is only appointed times when you must be washed before it.

                            Do you have any evidence to support your TWO-SALAAT THEORY?

                            Peace,

                            Ahmad

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                            • H Offline
                              H Offline
                              hpesc
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              Peace Hpesc,

                              So, you also believe that "salawaat" is referring to all the salaat observances done in one's life? ) I've already explained how this is completely illogical. Look throughout the Qur'an where the salaat observances throughout one's entire life are mentioned, and I GUARANTEE they don't say, "Uphold the salawaat..." Why do you think that is? hmm Throughout the scriptures, when the Qur'an refers to our general salaat (i.e. throughout our lifetime), it simply uses the general term "salaat", not "salawaat" (THREE OR MORE).

                              Those who believe in the unseen and they keep up the communions/SALAAT and what we provide for them they spend. (23)

                              And seek support through patience and the communions/SALAAT; and it is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble. (245)

                              And keep up the communions/SALAAT and give the zakat and what you advance to yourselves in goodness. You will find it at Allah. Allah is watching what you do. (2110)

                              And those who hold fast the book, and keep up the communions/SALAAT. So we do not waste the reward of the righteous. (7170)

                              These verses are obviously not speaking about ONE salaat observance, they are speaking about general salaat (i.e. throughout one's lifetime). The word "salaat" (singular) is used to describe our general communion throughout our lifetime, and therefore, "salawaat" (plural) is referring to our daily salaat observances. If this number was two, it would instruct us to keep up the "salaatayn"/TWO COMMUNIONS. Instead, it says "salawaat"/THREE OR MORE COMMUNIONS, meaning there are obviously more than two salaat observances per day.

                              Peace,

                              Ahmad

                              Peace
                              You are wrong. If you look att sura 23 verse 8-9;

                              8 Those who faithfully observe their trusts and their covenants;
                              9 And who guard their prayers;-

                              you will see that prayers is also here written in plural meaning in generally (could be one prayer since you could die after you first prayer or for example 60000 prayers).
                              According to your theory trusts wich also is written in plural wich you can see in the verse before must be more than two per day wich makes no sence and is completely wrong.

                              Peace

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                              • H Offline
                                H Offline
                                hpesc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                Peace Hpesc,

                                Do you have any evidence to support your TWO-SALAAT THEORY?

                                Peace,

                                Ahmad

                                Peace
                                The Quran with the right interpretation is enough for me.

                                Peace

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                                • A Offline
                                  A Offline
                                  Ahmad_Bilal
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  Peace Hpesc,

                                  You are wrong. If you look att sura 23 verse 8-9;

                                  8 Those who faithfully observe their trusts and their covenants;
                                  9 And who guard their prayers;-

                                  you will see that prayers is also here written in plural meaning in generally (could be one prayer since you could die after you first prayer or for example 60000 prayers).

                                  This is wrong. The fact that it is written in the plural form shows that it's NOT general, and it emphasizes a specific number (THREE OR MORE). There are only 5 instances where this is emphasized throughout the entire Qur'an (one is possessive and doesn't say "salawaat&quot. However, there are plenty of passages that speak of salaat in general. I quoted these verses

                                  Those who believe in the unseen and they keep up the communions/SALAAT and what we provide for them they spend. (23)

                                  And seek support through patience and the communions/SALAAT; and it is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble. (245)

                                  And keep up the communions/SALAAT and give the zakat and what you advance to yourselves in goodness. You will find it at Allah. Allah is watching what you do. (2110)

                                  And those who hold fast the book, and keep up the communions/SALAAT. So we do not waste the reward of the righteous. (7170)

                                  Do you believe these passages to be referring to ONE salaat observance (i.e. 'Keep up the ONE salaat&#039? That would be illogical. You can even look them up yourself; the term "salaat" is used to refer to general salaat observance (i.e. during one's lifetime) throughout the entire Qur'an. They are clearly speaking about salaat in general, not in one specific salaat observance... Therefore, if these verses and others use the word "salaat" to refer to general communion/prayer, then the pluralized form ("salawaat&quot must be referring to a specific number during a specific period of time (i.e. per day, per week, per month, etc.); it's not referring to general salaat upkeepings. If you were correct in the Qur'an referring to TWO daily salaat observances, it would use the term "salaatayn"/two prayers, instead of saying "salawaat"/three of more prayers.

                                  According to your theory trusts wich also is written in plural wich you can see in the verse before must be more than two per day wich makes no sence and is completely wrong.

                                  You've gotta be kidding me... ) There's no pluralized general term for "trusts/securities"; this is just the basic plural form of it, which could be all of one's trusts in one day, one week, one month, one year, or one lifetime. These two terms aren't even comparable.

                                  Peace,

                                  Ahmad

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                                  • H Offline
                                    H Offline
                                    hpesc
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    Peace Hpesc,

                                    This is wrong. The fact that it is written in the plural form shows that it's NOT general, and it emphasizes a specific number (THREE OR MORE). There are only 5 instances where this is emphasized throughout the entire Qur'an (one is possessive and doesn't say "salawaat&quot. However, there are plenty of passages that speak of salaat in general. I quoted these verses

                                    Do you believe these passages to be referring to ONE salaat observance (i.e. 'Keep up the ONE salaat&#039? That would be illogical. You can even look them up yourself; the term "salaat" is used to refer to general salaat observance (i.e. during one's lifetime) throughout the entire Qur'an. They are clearly speaking about salaat in general, not in one specific salaat observance... Therefore, if these verses and others use the word "salaat" to refer to general communion/prayer, then the pluralized form ("salawaat&quot must be referring to a specific number during a specific period of time (i.e. per day, per week, per month, etc.); it's not referring to general salaat upkeepings. If you were correct in the Qur'an referring to TWO daily salaat observances, it would use the term "salaatayn"/two prayers, instead of saying "salawaat"/three of more prayers.

                                    You've gotta be kidding me... There's no pluralized general term for "trusts/securities"; this is just the basic plural form of it, which could be all of one's trusts in one day, one week, one month, one year, or one lifetime. These two terms aren't even comparable.

                                    Peace,

                                    Ahmad

                                    Peace
                                    In arabic there is trust and plural of it wich is trusts. In this sentence when its plural and don't mean a specified nr then of course you are talking about trusts in general. Its not hard to understand. For example if I in arabic say; be careful with dogs you say be careful minal kil?bi. Wich also means in general wich means not specifically 1, 2 ore three and so on. The trusts example is a perfect example. Even when said salat in many places it also means in general. You can say both singular or plurar and mean in general (=generally speaking) and the trusts example proves it. This is totally clear. I don't understand how you can see it otherwise.
                                    Let me ask you, is your origin north africa?

                                    Peace

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                                      Ahmad_Bilal
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      Peace Hpesc,

                                      In arabic there is trust and plural of it wich is trusts. In this sentence when its plural and don't mean a specified nr then of course you are talking about trusts in general. Its not hard to understand. For example if I in arabic say; be careful with dogs you say be careful minal kil?bi. Wich also means in general wich means not specifically 1, 2 ore three and so on. The trusts example is a perfect example. Even when said salat in many places it also means in general. You can say both singular or plurar and mean in general (=generally speaking) and the trusts example proves it. This is totally clear. I don't understand how you can see it otherwise.

                                      Okay... How, then, do you say "two trusts" in Arabic? ) Exactly. The word "trust" is a common subject, and "trusts" is the plural form. However, it can't be called a general pluralized form because THERE'S NO SPECIFIC PLURALIZED FORM. So, like I said, this could refer to the trusts of one day, one week, one month, one year, or one lifetime. This is completely different from "salaat", which can be a singular and a general plural noun.

                                      Let me ask you, is your origin north africa?

                                      I don't understand the question. All of humanity has an origin from northern Africa, most likely between Kemet/Egypt, Nubia/Sudan, or Morocco. I'm no different. So, I guess this means that, yes, I do have an origin/ancestry from North Africa... If you're asking if I was born or raised in North Africa, no, I wasn't born or raised there.

                                      Peace,

                                      Ahmad

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                                      • H Offline
                                        H Offline
                                        hpesc
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        Peace Hpesc,

                                        Okay... How, then, do you say "two trusts" in Arabic? Exactly. The word "trust" is a common subject, and "trusts" is the plural form. However, it can't be called a general pluralized form because THERE'S NO SPECIFIC PLURALIZED FORM. So, like I said, this could refer to the trusts of one day, one week, one month, one year, or one lifetime. This is completely different from "salaat", which can be a singular and a general plural noun.

                                        I don't understand the question. All of humanity has an origin from northern Africa, most likely between Kemet/Egypt, Nubia/Sudan, or Morocco. I'm no different. So, I guess this means that, yes, I do have an origin/ancestry from North Africa... If you're asking if I was born or raised in North Africa, no, I wasn't born or raised there.

                                        Peace,

                                        Ahmad

                                        Peace
                                        Trust = imana two trusts = imanatan trusts = imanat. Its not completely different from salat and if perfectly comparable. I give you another example;

                                        Sura 63 verse 9;

                                        9 O ye who believe! Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allah. If any act thus, the loss is their own.

                                        Look at the word children wich is written in plural can still mean that I have only two children even thoug there is walad, waldani, aulad. Its because its also talking in general. Very very simple. Do you want even more examples to understand?

                                        As for your origin its a simple question. I live now in Sweden and if someone ask me my origin or where Im from I simply say Syria, Halab (arab). Maybe you don't want to tell me where your from but in that case just say so.
                                        Also you said that "all of humanity has an origin from northern Africa". Where did you get this from? God divided us in different colors and language. Our origin is Noah and firstly Adam. We don't know where they lived except that Adam firstly lived in Paradise and then on earth.

                                        Peace

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                                          A Offline
                                          Ahmad_Bilal
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          Peace Hpesc,

                                          Trust = imana two trusts = imanatan trusts = imanat. Its not completely different from salat and if perfectly comparable. I give you another example;

                                          Sura 63 verse 9;

                                          9 O ye who believe! Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of Allah. If any act thus, the loss is their own.

                                          Look at the word children wich is written in plural can still mean that I have only two children even thoug there is walad, waldani, aulad. Its because its also talking in general. Very very simple. Do you want even more examples to understand?

                                          This is exactly what I was talking about. Regarding the word "trust", it would singularly be "imaana", and the plural form is "imaanat". To refer to "two trusts", you would have to have "imaanat" with a combination of "itnayn"/two; if you wanted to say "three trusts", you'd have to have a combination of the word "talaata", and so on... The example of children is different because "children" is a general pluralized form of the word "child". For example, if you make the statement "my children", it is implied that you're referring to all of your children, or at least all your children that are present. That's completely different from salaat. If the Qur'an wants you to keep the salaat, it says, "Keep the SALAAT," plain and simple. However, if it's speaking about a specific number of salaat observances within a given period of time, it would use the pluralized form (i.e. "salaatayn", "salawaat", "salaat&quot. That itself shows that the singular form (i.e. "salaat&quot can also be used as the general plural form, and it's used this way throughout the Qur'an.

                                          As for your origin its a simple question. I live now in Sweden and if someone ask me my origin or where Im from I simply say Syria, Halab (arab). Maybe you don't want to tell me where your from but in that case just say so.
                                          Also you said that "all of humanity has an origin from northern Africa". Where did you get this from? God divided us in different colors and language. Our origin is Noah and firstly Adam. We don't know where they lived except that Adam firstly lived in Paradise and then on earth.

                                          I wasn't trying to convey my origin as a secret or anything. I'm from the United States, born, raised, and living presently... In the case of humanity, it has been scientifically acknowledged that humanity itself was initiated in northern Africa, most likely in the region of modern-day Sudan; and from there, everyone spaced out and populated the rest of the world. So, in this case, my origin and ancestry is from northern Africa, as is the rest of humanity.

                                          Peace,

                                          Ahmad

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