Salaat includes kneeling and bowing

pcborg

pcborg,

In what way the above submission goes against the principles of Islam, Quran, and Allah? Why should you pull a fast one on such a good understanding?

Peace,

Words in the qur'an are not algebraic variables. Their meaning is not defined according to some value we wish an idea to have. To understand the meaning of a word we must 1st have knowledge of its possible linguistic meanings then we make use of the context in which it is being used to decide the correct meaning the word can have. However, we cannot make the words have new meanings that cannot be directly linked to the original meaning of the word. To do so is to make the qur'an useless and unintelligible. The Qur'an can modify meaning, expand meanings by explaining them in its own text etc...

So that such concepts are or are not in harmony with islam in general is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is what can the word mean and what does the context of the word indicate regarding the correct meaning.

salaam

pcborg

pcborg,

Salaat is purely performed in the mind level; it is not physical at all. If you want to refute, then just any one ayat you quote and discuss; there need not be more than an ayat here for discussion because there shall never be contradiction between one ayat and the rest of the 6665 ayats. And make sure your explanation to one ayat must fit in all the ayats relating to salaat.

Brother, the evidence is clear on the physical actions involved in prayer, if my article does not convince you of this, perhaps the next article i write specifically on this point will be of use. Have patience as I have many things to attend to.

salaam,

pcborg

pcborg,

That was not at all the point sabina raised.
If Allah is watching you from all directions and your salaah must be performed facing Him, what is the unified direction for salaah you are speaking of? Who do you face during your salaah? Allah or the square stone? 'Qibla' means turning to Him; and acknowledging Him.
Based on your logic, what in your opinion is the difference between the physical actions of animals and the physical actions of man? Each and every thing in the heavens and in the earth including men KNOW well how to pray Allah. The KNOW is their knowledge and the wisdom endowed by Allah upon each. His wisdom is not physical but the Unseen force!

Peace

.

It may not be her point, nevertheless it IS the logic involved in her point.
The physical act of bowing and prostration help to create the sense of humbleness. As they are directional motions in nature, there has for a long time been a direction associated with such practices. It unifies the worship of the ummah that Allah has unified the direction for this. Demontrate to me that logically praying in the direction of the Ka'baa implies that Allah must only be in that direction, and then I will agree with you.
Quote -
"2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the Earth glorifies God, even the birds assembled? Each knows its salat and its glorification."
We can easily see from this that all classes of things and beings may have their own way of doing it, there is not requirement from this ayah that all things and beings do salaat in the same way. Unless you can demonstrate that this does logically imply that all must pray in the same way, then your point is irrelivant.

salaam,

pcborg

peace,

Please refrain from making personal comments. It is not constructive when in a discussion.
Forum rules http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0

The sequence of events is that YOU made a claim first, e.g. salat involves physical bowing and kneeling etc. I asked about the evidence for this claim. You were evasive and never answered. You now say you are going to write an article about "sujuud" and "rukuu", which to me is clearly an indirect admission your existing evidence was not worthy of being cited. This was as I suspected, hence my questioning. Of course, that is not to say there is no evidence.

In any case, I look forward to your article attempting to answer the following questions, re-quoted again, in emphasis/bold

Being wrong in this life does not bother me.

The reason I will write an article on this topic is not because my article is not sufficient. It is very much sufficient, for people who are logical and who do not have a psychological allergy to salaah. When people sincerely do not want to believe that salah requires standing, bowing and prostrating, then you must spoon feed them the evidence without leaving out any little step of logic so that they have nowhere to hide their error.

My article is sufficient if you are happy to be logical, but my article is not fool-proof. There is nothing so fool proof that a sufficiently great fool cannot misunderstand it.

salaam

pcborg

pcborg,

Actually I am stuck with your principles! Can you explain about your first principle? You state 1. If a word can have more than one meaning then I will choose the meaning that - 1.1. Fits the context.

Quran is for the present and for the future. The context changes between man and man; and in the same man from moment to moment And as for the future we may not be able to assess and assert for now. There will be myriad changes in occasions and situations. What is the yard stick that you hold to choose a meaning to apply to the context? Definitely the past and the history is not the life of us; for a believer has to believe in the future!

Peace.

.

The context is not a situational context. Rather the context is the Qur'an itself. If you desire to interpret words without proper care to the qur'anic context, then you may as well discard the qur'an as guidance. It has become a Ouija Board to tap into your opinions.

salaam,

Wakas

The reason I will write an article on this topic is not because my article is not sufficient. It is very much sufficient, for people who are logical and who do not have a psychological allergy to salaah. When people sincerely do not want to believe that salah requires standing, bowing and prostrating, then you must spoon feed them the evidence without leaving out any little step of logic so that they have nowhere to hide their error.

My article is sufficient if you are happy to be logical, but my article is not fool-proof. There is nothing so fool proof that a sufficiently great fool cannot misunderstand it.

salaam

Thanks for presenting an "ad hominen" fallacy, but I prefer evidence.

Let us know when you finish your article, and please make it detailed, clear and simple so that even I can understand it. Thanks. ;D

pcborg

Thanks for presenting an "ad hominen" fallacy, but I prefer evidence.

Let us know when you finish your article, and please make it detailed, clear and simple so that even I can understand it. Thanks. ;D

I can promise that it will be detailed... However I can not promise that even you will understand it ;D.

salaam

drfazl

Words in the qur'an are not algebraic variables. Their meaning is not defined according to some value we wish an idea to have. To understand the meaning of a word we must 1st have knowledge of its possible linguistic meanings then we make use of the context in which it is being used to decide the correct meaning the word can have. However, we cannot make the words have new meanings that cannot be directly linked to the original meaning of the word. To do so is to make the qur'an useless and unintelligible. The Qur'an can modify meaning, expand meanings by explaining them in its own text etc...

So that such concepts are or are not in harmony with islam in general is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is what can the word mean and what does the context of the word indicate regarding the correct meaning.

salaam

pcborg,

Please cite the ayats that conform to your above reply that I have underlined. And the words I had highlighted speaks against your methodology of Quranic approach.

Peace,

.

drfazl

Brother, the evidence is clear on the physical actions involved in prayer, if my article does not convince you of this, perhaps the next article i write specifically on this point will be of use. Have patience as I have many things to attend to.
salaam,
Marwan

pcborg,

Take your own time. I pray for Patience!

Peace,

.

drfazl

It may not be her point, nevertheless it IS the logic involved in her point.
The physical act of bowing and prostration help to create the sense of humbleness. As they are directional motions in nature, there has for a long time been a direction associated with such practices. It unifies the worship of the ummah that Allah has unified the direction for this. Demontrate to me that logically praying in the direction of the Ka'baa implies that Allah must only be in that direction, and then I will agree with you.
Quote -
"2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the Earth glorifies God, even the birds assembled? Each knows its salat and its glorification."
We can easily see from this that all classes of things and beings may have their own way of doing it, there is not requirement from this ayah that all things and beings do salaat in the same way. Unless you can demonstrate that this does logically imply that all must pray in the same way, then your point is irrelivant.

salaam,
Marwan

pcborg,

The logic is an approach towards understanding the Truth; and the approach is highly individualistic. The end result whether they arrive at the Truth or not is the matter for concern. What is the Truth? Belief in Allah must be strengthened through the logic they follow; and you are not The One who shall assess the Iman of another.
I think you are not clear to yourself in your answer to the second point; you are bringing in the support of the practice in vogue. I think the contrary to what you have mentioned may be the truth.
Each of every creation in the heavens and on the earth knows its individual way of salaat; even a bee knows into which hole in the honey comb it must enter and when it shall come out and upon what flowers it must rest and feed upon; and you can see the birds doing salaat spreading its wings - once you it spread its wings it is on the move in all directions wherever Allah guides each of them and we see them in flocks and in pairs and in singles. So salaat is your obedience to Allah's commands in every walk of life as per the doctrines enshrined in the Quran and ordained upon us. It is the Guidance in life!

I will wait in patience and take your time.

Peace,

.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Pcborg,

I read your entire article on salaat, and I found it very good and consistent. Overall, the only factor that I disagreed with was your description of the "Friday prayer" - I interpreted "yawmi aljumaat" to refer to the day of assembly (or time of meeting), not necessarily falling on Friday, but being any day in which submitters gather together in worship... Other than this, though, I think your article on this subject is very good and extremely informative, and it's based on the reading. May Allah guide us all to the truth on this matter...

Peace,

Ahmad

drfazl

The context is not a situational context. Rather the context is the Qur'an itself. If you desire to interpret words without proper care to the qur'anic context, then you may as well discard the qur'an as guidance. It has become a Ouija Board to tap into your opinions.

salaam,
Marwan

pcborg,

If the context is not situational, then Quran is useless as Guidance. That is what you mean to convey? By the way what is "Quranic context"?

Peace,

.

pcborg

pcborg,

If the context is not situational, then Quran is useless as Guidance. That is what you mean to convey? By the way what is "Quranic context"?

Peace,

The context for interpretation is the Qur'an. The context for application is situational.

Situational considerations cannot dictate what the Qur'an means, else the Qur'an is not guidance at all. As an example, homosexuality has now been accepted as physically and psychologically safe, with homosexual pairings increasingly being allowed to adopt and raise children. We are also told that this is just as good as the father mother model.

So given that context or situation, would you seek to redefine the Qur'anic position on homosexuality?

How about if you were fooled into believing that homosexuality is genetic? (There is ironclad evidence which refutes this by the way, twin studies).

Would you then say "oh well, Allah cannot punish people if they have no control over what they do" and then go about using that situation to change the guidance of the Qur'an on this?

So on and so on.

Salaam,

pcborg

Salaam,

I will prepare the article inshallah in the next couple of weeks, I have been unusually busy of late... My apologies to any who await its appearance. Read my salat article until that time, it is sufficient if read logically.

salaam

pcborg

Peace Pcborg,

I read your entire article on salaat, and I found it very good and consistent. Overall, the only factor that I disagreed with was your description of the "Friday prayer" - I interpreted "yawmi aljumaat" to refer to the day of assembly (or time of meeting), not necessarily falling on Friday, but being any day in which submitters gather together in worship... Other than this, though, I think your article on this subject is very good and extremely informative, and it's based on the reading. May Allah guide us all to the truth on this matter...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam,

Thank you for your feedback. I have come across your opinion (not from you though) on the fridy prayer issue. I understand where you are coming from, so perhaps I should include my reason(s) for interpreting it in the way I do.

Salaam

tanty

The Arab ritual prayer

These simplified instructions will enable anyone to complete the dance of the Arab prayer ritual. Born to a Muslim family, the author personally performed this ritual countless times throughout his life before he called it a day many years ago. I must remind the reader, it is vital that every utterance in the Arab prayer ritual be in Arabic. The
English-speaking Muslims may not even say a simple phrase like, ?Praise be to You my Lord? in English.

Here, is a summary of the basic procedure for those who have never performed an Arab prayer ritual

? First, wash out your mouth with water, blow your nose, wash your face, your hands, your forehead, your ears, your neck, and your legs and then speak to God in Arabic and tell Him you are going to ritually pray to Him.
? Find a spot and make sure you face the stone idol in Mecca. If you are in Japan the direction is westwards, but if you are in Europe the direction is the eastwards, obviously.
? Then, stand properly with the hands folded on your belly. Various sects have their own specific ways of
placing the hands, and the tutored eye can tell a lot about your doctrine just by looking at the way you hold this position, though variations abound throughout the mosques of the world.
? Then pronounce ?Allah hu akbar?. The word akbar means bigger. So it is ?God is bigger?. (Interestingly, the phrase Allah hu akbar is not found anywhere in the Reading). Then recite some Arabic verses (which you may or may not
comprehend).

The prayer starts with a recitation of a set of speech formulated -The recitations differ from one sect to another. The opening passages of the prayer do not come from the Qur?an except when they utter part of 679, 6161-162. Abraham and Muhammad uttered these verses to the people but the Arabs address them to God- by the religionists before beginning the compulsory recital of Al Fatiha (the first surah, consisting of seven verses). Typically, this will be followed by a short surah from toward the end of the Reading. Surahs 111, 112, 113 and 114 are particular favourites as they are very short and generally considered the minimum (along with Al Fatiha) that a Muslim should be expected to memorise -When people are willing to memorise without understanding it is a sign of their willingness to be shackled without thinking. If we train a parrot to say 'good morning', it will say good morning to people even during the night- The religionists say they are praying to God. Yet each of these last surahs begins with an instruction to the Prophet ?Qul!? or ?Say!? followed by exactly what it was he was required to say. However these verses which begin with a direct instruction are habitually addressed to God in the Arab prayer ritual. For example

Say! He is God, the only one. The absolute God. He never begets, nor was He ever begotten. There is none equal to Him. (surah 111)

There are many verses in the Reading that start with an imperative addressing a second person commanding him to recite to a third person or persons. That is the nature of the Revelation. However, the religionists teach their followers to recite these orders back to God in their prayer ritual. In one of their favourite surahs for this purpose, they tell God

Say! O you disbelievers, I do not serve what you serve, nor are you serving what I am serving. I will never serve what you are serving, nor will you ever serve what I am serving. To you is your own way, and to me is my own way. (surah 109)

However, if they choose to recite surah 108 in their prayer, they will tell God

We have given you many bounties. In appreciation, you shall serve your Lord and be charitable. Your enemy will henceforth be the loser. (surah 10

Obviously, not all non-Arabs know what they are saying to God in their ritual prayers. Maybe there is some excuse.
But even native Arabic-speaking Arabs including religionists and Arabic scholars say these things to God every day!

Having finished the liturgy of (frequently inappropriate) verses, you should raise both hands and say ?allah-hu-akbar? or ?God is bigger? again.

Then you bow forward for a few seconds before standing erect and calling out ?God is bigger? again. Then you prostrate ? placing your forehead on the floor ? and recite more Arabic words. Then you should sit up and then prostrate again before rising to the standing position. This procedure represents one unit of prayer. The number of units and whether what you say will be aloud or quiet will depend on a number of factors devised by the religionists such as time of day and ?type? of prayer. Generally, (although there are variations depending on whether you perform the ?extra? night prayers) a Muslim is required to bow seventeen times and prostrate thirty-four times in a twenty-four hour period.

At the end of any one particular set of units, you are to sit and send greetings to Prophet Abraham and Muhammad
and their families (no need to wait for them to reply, however), then greet the ?two angels sitting on both of your shoulders? (again, no reply is expected).

Reading clearly says

You cannot be heard by those in the graves. (3522)

Yet, the followers of the Arab religion the world over are greeting only the dead prophet Muhammad and their families five times a day! We are not supposed to make any distinction between the prophets -As for those who believe in God and His messengers, they make no distinction among any of them. God will recompense them. God is Forgiver and merciful. (4152)- but Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Joseph, David, Solomon, Moses, Aaron, Zachariah, John (Yahya), and Jesus were somehow left out of this private club. How very rude.

Sol-laa (commitments) is not ritual prayer

When looking at other words which have had their meanings twisted in the Qur?anic context, we can usually get back to the true meaning by looking at extant words in modern Arabic surrounding the root. Zakaa is a good example. All the root meanings of zakaa refer to purity and sincerity. This can be verified by looking at any good dictionary. As we shall see ? the Arab religion has created the un-Qur?anic tax and ascribed this to the word zakaa. The deception is relatively easy to spot since the key meanings of the word zakaa have remained intact.

Sol-laa is no different. Before we continue let me clarify why I use the word Sol-laa instead of the common term Salaat. Firstly, when we read the Reading in Arabic it is always pronounced as ?Aqimus-Sol-laa- taa-wa-aatuz-Zakaa? ? nobody says ?Aqimus-Salaat-taa-wa-aatuz-Zakat?. This is evident even during the call of prayer. All over the world - the person who announces the prayer will shout on top of his voice with ?Hai-ya-?alas-Sol-laa? ? never as ?Hai-ya-?alas-Salaat?. Muslims know this word is pronounced the way it is spelt in the Reading - Arabs or not.

This is only to demonstrate that - there is a difference between God?s Arabic in the Reading and the Arabic language spoken by the Arabs, and for this study I have chosen to use the former i.e. God?s Arabic

When we look up the word in a dictionary we find a word that is mispronounced by the Muslim world ? Salaat ? under the root S-l-w. It is worth noting that this root has no other meaning directly ascribed to it other than the ?ritual prayer?. There is nothing else.

Whereas almost any key Qur?anic term has related terms which balance and integrate it into the waft and web of the
language (and by means of which we can sense deceptions as and when they occur) this important ? some would say
central ? Qur?anic concept has no ?context? in the language by which to verify the claims made for it by the Arab religionists other than the one created for it by those self-same religionists.

There are no related meanings that one can point to and say Sol-laa must mean what such-and-such because it integrates into the language on the basis of the sense we derive from the word. This is not possible because the word
simply has no semantic context in the religion of the Arabs as we know.

Now, it could be argued that the reason for this is that this word has only one meaning ? unconnected to anything else in the vast and interconnected web of Arabic semantics ? and that the meaning the Arab religionists ascribe to it is, in fact, the correct one. In this case, we would respond by pointing out that since the ritual prayer or Salaat (by the religionists? own measure and admission) is not in the Reading, their own definition of it is of no special value.

The situation we find ourselves in is there is a word ? ?Sol-laa? ? that exists in a semantic vacuum, and the leaders of the religious system say it means X based on their non-Qur?anic writings (the Hadith). Since their non-Qur?anic writings say some patently ludicrous things, and given that the religious elite promotes these non-Qur?anic sources to achieve ends which are usually advantageous only to the religious elite, a thinking person is left wondering what possible use their definition of this word can be to anyone except them.

Just to clear up the point of roots. The root of Sol-laa is S-L. It is a two-root word. They are many such words in the
Reading. Examples of other two-root words found in the Reading are haq (truth, root h-q), abu (father, root a-b) or
yad (hand, root y-d) or Qama (the keep vigil or attentive, root q-m).

For complete information please read the book on-line below
http//aididsafar.com/mental.html

Wassalam

unknownuser

Peace Tanty

Great post

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace,

I've read that book before, and it provides some very interesting perspectives on the concept of submission ("islaam&quot. However, some of the ideas mentioned are incorrect and inconsistent with Arabic language and grammar. I've found some incorrect views concerning 'salaat' (which the author calls 'sol-laa&#039, the worship of the God, and even the consumption of pig meat... Overall, the book is good for anyone who wishes to do an indepth study of the practice of 'Islam' outside of the traditional box, but it's certainly not flawless, and it has it's own errors and inconsistencies. I do, however, agree with the author's objectives in separating the modern concept of what a "muslim" is and does, and also exposing the gross mistranslations of many interpreters to fit their concept of the 'Arab religion'...

Peace,

Ahmad

drfazl

The context for interpretation is the Qur'an. The context for application is situational.

You say the same thing. Quran is a Guide for any situation present and future. If any deviation to this, please explain.

So given that context or situation, would you seek to redefine the Qur'anic position on homosexuality?

I feel you got me wrong! The content of any text is context. Quran is not an ordinary text book that speaks of hearsay but Scripture of eternal truth of past, present and future; and the hereafter. This eternal truth is the contextual verses of Quran from each of which we have to derive the way out of all inequitable situation. Such is the Guidance in the Quran for those who understand. What you are asking me is "would I seek to redefine the Qur'anic position on homosexuality?"

I seek to get at the Guidance from the verses with reference to the context to safeguard myself from the situation surrounding me. A situation is the real happening or incidence. But when you text it, or refer it, or narrate it, it becomes a context. This is all the difference between the situation and context. I believe you get me correct now when I say If the context is not situational, then Quran is useless as Guidance."

How about if you were fooled into believing that homosexuality is genetic? (There is ironclad evidence which refutes this by the way, twin studies).

Relate the situation to the context or content of Quran get at the Guidance; never allow yourself to be fooled by the twin studies or any number of multifolds to their rotten twin studies.

Would you then say "oh well, Allah cannot punish people if they have no control over what they do" and then go about using that situation to change the guidance of the Qur'an on this? So on and so on.

Is there any reasons for such question, especially when you are on the Right Course?

Salaam,

.]

Kadeen

Peace to All!

Not here to argue with anyone, or to say who is right or who is wrong.
But I take "We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate." (Qur?an, 2226) and "Perform prayer (Salaat) and give the alms and bow with those who bow". (Qur?an, 243) to mean 3 things, the shrine is a physical place as it can be visited and lived near and those who visit it bow and prostrate,and charity is real. Nothing here suggests that any of these things are only spiritual, if prayer,bowing,kneeling etc. are spiritual only, then so would giving alms...
There is another surah I wanted to quote, but cant recall it at the time. It states if we are in danger or distress that we may perform salat while setting or riding or to some effect. This to me means that salat is physical, because if it were just a mental/spiritual practice, there would be no need to describe it being done one way then allowing for it to be done another way if need arises.
Sorry to jump in the thread.