Salaat includes kneeling and bowing
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Salaam,
I see so much now that qur'an aloners take the chance (due to rightly discarding hadith) to try and discard anything else they dislike in Islam under the guise that it is from Hadith. Woman's dress and place, salaat, halal and haram food etc etc...
There is a direct trajectory towards liberalisation and ease, even when there is no warrant or evidence. Mental gymnastics have become the norm.
I have on my site www.detailedquran.com papers on salaat, food and dress code and inshallah there will be others forthcoming in the future (when exactly, I cannot be sure).
As this section of the forum is about salaat, please read my salaat document on that site and give me logical and evidential reasons why you oppose salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling.
I look forward to your responses.
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The document discusses timing along with the issue of Qibla etc.. All add to the case that a physical manifestation of salaat is needed. The document is a wholistic approach to the topic.
Also, I appreciate that people as sick of replying to so many posts, however I cannot reply to everyone elses posts either. So the salaat document is my case presentation, which I will modify and improve with time inshallah. If there is any acknowledged definitive salaat docuement that most free minds people accept, I will also look at it and respond to it as needed. However, if there is no such definitive document, lets deal with this issue in this thread.
salaam
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My response is this
Quran is a context for the present and the future; so hadith or hearsay of afore times is out of context for the believers. We can only follow Allah and His messengers for the life of messengers is only Quran. Do dikr i.e ponder upon the verses and be constantly elevated as Allah reminds you of His glad tidings. This is wahy. Believe in the wahy or the guidance as it unfolds in your heart when you ponder upon His Verses. Follow what is revealed to you individually for which you will be accountable on the day of reckoning. You will not be judged as jamath or as a community but each one individually based on whether you followed Him or not. So follow the Wahy from Him and not the hearsay of the people, other than Allah and His Rasul.
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Peace Pcborg,
I got a chance to look at the site, and I think it is very informative and fairly accurate. I agree with most of the concepts regarding the salaat, especially the factors concerning the timing. It's not too different from the article on salaat observance written a while ago by Edip Yuksel (http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/salaat.htm), just more detailed and descriptive...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Pcborg,
I got a chance to look at the site, and I think it is very informative and fairly accurate. I agree with most of the concepts regarding the salaat, especially the factors concerning the timing. It's not too different from the article on salaat observance written a while ago by Edip Yuksel (http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/salaat.htm), just more detailed and descriptive...
Peace,
Ahmad
The Salaat prayer is observed to commemorate and remember God alone (6162; 2014). This remembrance protects Submitters from sins and harming others (2945). Salaat prayer should be observed continuously until death (1931; 7023,34).
Agree with this perfectly, another thing I wonder when I believe in hadith was why did they mention Muhammad's name but of course your not really suppose to question the "perfect religion"
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Peace Real Truth,
Agree with this perfectly, another thing I wonder when I believe in hadith was why did they mention Muhammad's name but of course your not really suppose to question the "perfect religion"
I understand completely, and when I used to study Sunni Islam, I used to wonder about these same things. But as you mentioned, they always told me not to question the "deenul Allah", and we are supposed to blindly follow the messenger (Muhammad), even if his alleged words and actions (in the sunna and hadiths) completely conflict with the Qur'an... That's the reason I enjoy reading articles that encourage the "questioning" of religious beliefs and practices by submitters, especially ones that promote the worship of God ALONE...
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/SP/2004/dec/page1.html
Peace,
Ahmad
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If we are followers of Quran then there is no bending and kneeling in salat. There are no raka't , single or multiple; there are no 5 times or 3 times prayer involving those postures and raka'ts. So what according to Quran the word salat means is being prayerful all the time without elements of doubt in it.
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If we are followers of Quran then there is no bending and kneeling in salat. There are no raka't , single or multiple; there are no 5 times or 3 times prayer involving those postures and raka'ts. So what according to Quran the word salat means is being prayerful all the time without elements of doubt in it.
Where did you get this conclusion? What about all the Quranic passages specifically mentioning "bowing and prostrating" when it comes to observing the salaat?
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Ahmad Bilal,
Where did you get this conclusion? What about all the Quranic passages specifically mentioning "bowing and prostrating" when it comes to observing the salaat?
What do you mean by bowing and prostrating? Speak from Quran Is it spiritual or ritual ? Think and answer.
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What do you mean by bowing and prostrating? Speak from Quran Is it spiritual or ritual ? Think and answer.
"Think and answer"?! The scriptures specifically mention "alrakaa" and "alsujood", meaning the physical bowing and prostrating. Where does the Quran imply that we should by "spiritually bowing and prostrating"? How do you spiritually bow and prostrate to something or someone? 4829 even says that the believers are SEEN bowing and prostrating; so how is this not a physical act? Can you VISUALLY SEE someone "spiritually" bowing and prostrating? Is this logical?
I recommend people reading past discussions on "sujud" and "rakaa" etc.
e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.0amongst others.
Thanks for posting these links, but these still don't show the rationality of "spiritual/mental" bowing and prostrating. All of the acts of worship (also called "rituals" in the Quran) are PHYSICAL ACTS. This includes observance of the salaat. The reasoning that the descriptions of "rakaa wa sujood" are the same concepts as "hear and obey" is completely unquranic, and the scriptures don't support this ideology at all...
He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." (4213)
Do the previous scriptures mention the ancient believers "spiritually" bowing and prostrating, or were they performing literal, physical acts of worship?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Wakas,
I recommend gathering the strongest evidence you have for your view on this and either posting it in a thread or perhaps an article.
I will then be happy to review it when I have time.
Okay, that sounds like a good idea. Thanks...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Ahmad,
The scripture means the Book containing the words of God; each word contains in it His wisdom to which if you apply your mind and understand them in your human knowledge and start writing them using your language skill shall consume seven seas as ink and the trees of the whole worlds as pens. Bearing this in mind, think and understand various possibilities of its usage in life and now write down the myriad applications to the word ' al rakaa ' and ' al sujud.' Will you do this?
"Think and answer"?! The scriptures specifically mention "alrakaa" and "alsujood", meaning the physical bowing and prostrating. Where does the Quran imply that we should by "spiritually bowing and prostrating"? How do you spiritually bow and prostrate to something or someone? 4829 even says that the believers are SEEN bowing and prostrating; so how is this not a physical act? Can you VISUALLY SEE someone "spiritually" bowing and prostrating? Is this logical?
The word spiritual is the common terminology used by all people without knowing the meaning of it. This is why you had asked such a question. I will ask you this question to have an answer from you. Why do you bow? Why do you prostrate? What are the meanings of the two? And in what situation or under what different conditions the two acts shall have to be specifically performed? If you answer this then you will know how to actualize the visionary.
Peace,
.
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Peace Drfazl,
The scripture means the Book containing the words of God; each word contains in it His wisdom to which if you apply your mind and understand them in your human knowledge and start writing them using your language skill shall consume seven seas as ink and the trees of the whole worlds as pens. Bearing this in mind, think and understand various possibilities of its usage in life and now write down the myriad applications to the word ' al rakaa ' and ' al sujud.' Will you do this?
I understand your usage of the words, but it doesn't change the scripts in the reading. It clearly mentions literal "rakaa" and "sujood", which is physical bowing and prostrating. If Allah simply wanted to say "hear and obey", that's what He would've said, just like He said in the other Quranic passages.
The word spiritual is the common terminology used by all people without knowing the meaning of it. This is why you had asked such a question. I will ask you this question to have an answer from you. Why do you bow? Why do you prostrate? What are the meanings of the two? And in what situation or under what different conditions the two acts shall have to be specifically performed? If you answer this then you will know how to actualize the visionary.
Well, I understand the meaning of the word "spiritual", and we should perform spiritual bowing and prostrating. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't perform PHYSICAL bowing and prostrating. They are a pair, while you're replacing one with the other... Saying we should perform a physical bowing and prostrating in our salaat observance is just like saying we should be taking a physical fast/abstanation; rather, it should be "spiritual". Not only is this incorrect, but it's illogical, since the scriptures tell us explicitly to physically abstain from certain things during this period... All forms of salaat are BOTH spiritual and physical, unless you believe in a spiritual recitation of the quran, a spiritual ablution, a spiritual standing, etc., and I'm sure this probably isn't the case. You're basing the logic of the Quran on your INTERPRETATION, even though the words are clearly outlining what is to be said and done.
Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative. (3529-30)
In believing that the salaat is not physical, you are also implying that all of these actions are spiritual and not physical; and based on this passage and it's context, this is obviously not the case... Where in the Quran is the salaat regarded as NON-PHYSICAL?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Ahmad,
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Peace Drfazl,
I understand your usage of the words, but it doesn't change the scripts in the reading. It clearly mentions literal "rakaa" and "sujood", which is physical bowing and prostrating. If Allah simply wanted to say "hear and obey", that's what He would've said, just like He said in the other Quranic passages.
Well, I understand the meaning of the word "spiritual", and we should perform spiritual bowing and prostrating. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't perform PHYSICAL bowing and prostrating. They are a pair, while you're replacing one with the other... Saying we should perform a physical bowing and prostrating in our salaat observance is just like saying we should be taking a physical fast/abstanation; rather, it should be "spiritual". Not only is this incorrect, but it's illogical, since the scriptures tell us explicitly to physically abstain from certain things during this period... All forms of salaat are BOTH spiritual and physical, unless you believe in a spiritual recitation of the quran, a spiritual ablution, a spiritual standing, etc., and I'm sure this probably isn't the case. You're basing the logic of the Quran on your INTERPRETATION, even though the words are clearly outlining what is to be said and done.
Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative. (3529-30)
In believing that the salaat is not physical, you are also implying that all of these actions are spiritual and not physical; and based on this passage and it's context, this is obviously not the case... Where in the Quran is the salaat regarded as NON-PHYSICAL?
Peace,
Ahmad
To elaborate on what Drfazl has explained in his previous post, the Rakaa and Sujood are definitely physical bowing and prostrating. But there one needs to understand the true meaning of Salaat. Salaat cannot be done through physical actions. The following are the reasons -
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Lack of Concentration ? When we prepare us for the Salat, how many times have you been fully conscious that you are preparing your self to talk to Allah ? I'm sure we lack our concentration 90% of the times
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Is Allah to be present in just one direction - Salaat is performed facing towards kaaba. But dont we know that Allah is Omni present? By performing the physical bowing/prostrating are we not going one step ahead and telling HIM that this is the way to pray?
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3529-30 - Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative.
Lets try to understand this verse carefully -
If you observe Salat - Contact Allah through your prayer for all your needs without associating any one with him
and are charitable both discreetly and openly - only if you are bestowed with open mindedness and generosity to give away the wealth given by Allah then we have Allah's blessings. Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action.
Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?- Assume that we come across a situation of crisis. We are well aware that this situation has aroused because of our own mistakes/sins. Now we have tried all the possible ways to solve it but in vain. Now what do we do?
We submit to Allah, we talk/pray to Allah with utmost politeness, ask for forgiveness and also promise Allah that we will definitely follow which ever is the right path and at this point we realise that he is the Most COGNIZANT .i.e we submit to Allah. Thus if you see we have performed a rukku - politeness and Sujood - submit to him alone who has all the might, THE ALMIGHTY.
May Allah guide all of us.
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peace
also mentioned in quran is certain situations where if we can't perform salat one way we can do it differently (walking, riding horses,... we can shorten it when in danger...)
that all implies that THE METHOD is clearly not important.elsewhere you see clear details about other issues,
inheritance, who to marry, who not to marry, ablution, fasting...
and interestingly there are nlo such details for salat (if we take it to mean prayer).
lets see what could have been said, something like this perhaps 'stand like this, say this, bow, say this, prostrate, say this, sit, say this, stand up and repeat several times'now would it be so hard to add this in the quran? of course not, yet there are no such details described.
and we see people bowing and prostrating physically while their behaviour and lifestyle is completly unquranic, so what does that physical thing do... nothing.
here's one of interesting articles
http//defendingtrueislam.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/salat-connection/
