Salaat includes kneeling and bowing

drfazl

pcborg,

Actually I am stuck with your principles! Can you explain about your first principle? You state 1. If a word can have more than one meaning then I will choose the meaning that - 1.1. Fits the context.

Quran is for the present and for the future. The context changes between man and man; and in the same man from moment to moment And as for the future we may not be able to assess and assert for now. There will be myriad changes in occasions and situations. What is the yard stick that you hold to choose a meaning to apply to the context? Definitely the past and the history is not the life of us; for a believer has to believe in the future!

Peace.

.

drfazl

pcborg,

1 - Because we are not perfect therefore salaat cannot be physical, that is your point. This is so rediculous as to make any response a waste of time.
2 - Who says that salaah is defining Allah as being in one direction? The qibla is merely a unified direction for salaah, not for Allah. For info on the qibla, check after the response to your 4th point.
3 - Astaghfirullah, you just added words to the qur'an. lets address you main point "Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action. Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?"

That was not at all the point sabina raised.
If Allah is watching you from all directions and your salaah must be performed facing Him, what is the unified direction for salaah you are speaking of? Who do you face during your salaah? Allah or the square stone? 'Qibla' means turning to Him; and acknowledging Him.
Based on your logic, what in your opinion is the difference between the physical actions of animals and the physical actions of man? Each and every thing in the heavens and in the earth including men KNOW well how to pray Allah. The KNOW is their knowledge and the wisdom endowed by Allah upon each. His wisdom is not physical but the Unseen force!

Peace

.

drfazl

pcborg,

May Allh protect us all from such 'logic'... I will respond to your points one by one -

Salaat, which is physical AND mental in nature, has numerous benefits, one of which is -

Salaat is purely performed in the mind level; it is not physical at all. If you want to refute, then just any one ayat you quote and discuss; there need not be more than an ayat here for discussion because there shall never be contradiction between one ayat and the rest of the 6665 ayats. And make sure your explanation to one ayat must fit in all the ayats relating to salaat.

?Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and establish prayer (Salaat); surely prayer (Salaat) keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do.? (Qur?an, 2945)

Recite means 'Re-citing' with inferences and references from the ayats bringing to mind repeatedly to strengthen your resolve for steadfastness in your rehearsal in the straight path that which has been revealed to you, when in your deep meditation and pondering prayerfully, over the ayats of Allah that has been sent down upon your heart. Allah's command is this "Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind!" This is all the prayer and recital is all about and the core meaning of (Qur?an, 2945).

Peace,

.

drfazl

pcborg,

And remember -
"I am God; there is no other god beside Me; you shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salaat (Prayers) to remember ME." (Qur?an, 2014)

Can you recite "I am God!"?
Can you understand, recite and rehearse in your life this 'three words' ayat?
When did you see the God? Did you have the verification from Allah direct to know Him at least by one attribute of His?
Have you followed Ibrahim in this regard?
Did Allah not describe to you that Ibrahim did get verification from Allah that He was the Creator, through his prayerful seeking?

And you know Muhammad also had to follow Ibrahim and those who believe in Allah. Unless you get the first hand Evidence of Allah, from Allah Himself by His Leave, there is no way you shall be assured of the real God and you will be able to stay clear of the gods beside Him. With this alone you will be steadfast in your belief and follow Him alone, which in human language is termed as worshiping. Due to such truthful worshiping, the Most Benevolent rewards you with ample recompense and also makes you remember Him with gratitude all the time for the Grace He has showered upon you. This gratitude of remembering Him results in strengthening one's ever growing belief and wisdom. You must remember that every ayat you recite must finally improve and increase your belief. This is the end of the prayer; the fruits of reciting; the liveliness of rehearsing. Start your discussion! Here is the ayat for your remembrance

And whenever a chapter is revealed, there are some of them who say Which of you has it strengthened in faith? Then as for those who believe, it strengthens them in faith and they rejoice.

And with this alone every single PRAYER should end!

Peace.

.

drfazl

pcborg,

4 - rukuu = politeness and sujuud submission... Is this 'pull whatever meaning for a word that you want' day?! I will deal with the meanings of these two words in a later post inshallah.

In what way the above submission goes against the principles of Islam, Quran, and Allah? Why should you pull a fast one on such a good understanding?

Peace,

.

pcborg

pcborg,

In what way the above submission goes against the principles of Islam, Quran, and Allah? Why should you pull a fast one on such a good understanding?

Peace,

Words in the qur'an are not algebraic variables. Their meaning is not defined according to some value we wish an idea to have. To understand the meaning of a word we must 1st have knowledge of its possible linguistic meanings then we make use of the context in which it is being used to decide the correct meaning the word can have. However, we cannot make the words have new meanings that cannot be directly linked to the original meaning of the word. To do so is to make the qur'an useless and unintelligible. The Qur'an can modify meaning, expand meanings by explaining them in its own text etc...

So that such concepts are or are not in harmony with islam in general is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is what can the word mean and what does the context of the word indicate regarding the correct meaning.

salaam

pcborg

pcborg,

Salaat is purely performed in the mind level; it is not physical at all. If you want to refute, then just any one ayat you quote and discuss; there need not be more than an ayat here for discussion because there shall never be contradiction between one ayat and the rest of the 6665 ayats. And make sure your explanation to one ayat must fit in all the ayats relating to salaat.

Brother, the evidence is clear on the physical actions involved in prayer, if my article does not convince you of this, perhaps the next article i write specifically on this point will be of use. Have patience as I have many things to attend to.

salaam,

pcborg

pcborg,

That was not at all the point sabina raised.
If Allah is watching you from all directions and your salaah must be performed facing Him, what is the unified direction for salaah you are speaking of? Who do you face during your salaah? Allah or the square stone? 'Qibla' means turning to Him; and acknowledging Him.
Based on your logic, what in your opinion is the difference between the physical actions of animals and the physical actions of man? Each and every thing in the heavens and in the earth including men KNOW well how to pray Allah. The KNOW is their knowledge and the wisdom endowed by Allah upon each. His wisdom is not physical but the Unseen force!

Peace

.

It may not be her point, nevertheless it IS the logic involved in her point.
The physical act of bowing and prostration help to create the sense of humbleness. As they are directional motions in nature, there has for a long time been a direction associated with such practices. It unifies the worship of the ummah that Allah has unified the direction for this. Demontrate to me that logically praying in the direction of the Ka'baa implies that Allah must only be in that direction, and then I will agree with you.
Quote -
"2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the Earth glorifies God, even the birds assembled? Each knows its salat and its glorification."
We can easily see from this that all classes of things and beings may have their own way of doing it, there is not requirement from this ayah that all things and beings do salaat in the same way. Unless you can demonstrate that this does logically imply that all must pray in the same way, then your point is irrelivant.

salaam,

pcborg

peace,

Please refrain from making personal comments. It is not constructive when in a discussion.
Forum rules http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0

The sequence of events is that YOU made a claim first, e.g. salat involves physical bowing and kneeling etc. I asked about the evidence for this claim. You were evasive and never answered. You now say you are going to write an article about "sujuud" and "rukuu", which to me is clearly an indirect admission your existing evidence was not worthy of being cited. This was as I suspected, hence my questioning. Of course, that is not to say there is no evidence.

In any case, I look forward to your article attempting to answer the following questions, re-quoted again, in emphasis/bold

Being wrong in this life does not bother me.

The reason I will write an article on this topic is not because my article is not sufficient. It is very much sufficient, for people who are logical and who do not have a psychological allergy to salaah. When people sincerely do not want to believe that salah requires standing, bowing and prostrating, then you must spoon feed them the evidence without leaving out any little step of logic so that they have nowhere to hide their error.

My article is sufficient if you are happy to be logical, but my article is not fool-proof. There is nothing so fool proof that a sufficiently great fool cannot misunderstand it.

salaam

pcborg

pcborg,

Actually I am stuck with your principles! Can you explain about your first principle? You state 1. If a word can have more than one meaning then I will choose the meaning that - 1.1. Fits the context.

Quran is for the present and for the future. The context changes between man and man; and in the same man from moment to moment And as for the future we may not be able to assess and assert for now. There will be myriad changes in occasions and situations. What is the yard stick that you hold to choose a meaning to apply to the context? Definitely the past and the history is not the life of us; for a believer has to believe in the future!

Peace.

.

The context is not a situational context. Rather the context is the Qur'an itself. If you desire to interpret words without proper care to the qur'anic context, then you may as well discard the qur'an as guidance. It has become a Ouija Board to tap into your opinions.

salaam,

Wakas

The reason I will write an article on this topic is not because my article is not sufficient. It is very much sufficient, for people who are logical and who do not have a psychological allergy to salaah. When people sincerely do not want to believe that salah requires standing, bowing and prostrating, then you must spoon feed them the evidence without leaving out any little step of logic so that they have nowhere to hide their error.

My article is sufficient if you are happy to be logical, but my article is not fool-proof. There is nothing so fool proof that a sufficiently great fool cannot misunderstand it.

salaam

Thanks for presenting an "ad hominen" fallacy, but I prefer evidence.

Let us know when you finish your article, and please make it detailed, clear and simple so that even I can understand it. Thanks. ;D

pcborg

Thanks for presenting an "ad hominen" fallacy, but I prefer evidence.

Let us know when you finish your article, and please make it detailed, clear and simple so that even I can understand it. Thanks. ;D

I can promise that it will be detailed... However I can not promise that even you will understand it ;D.

salaam

drfazl

Words in the qur'an are not algebraic variables. Their meaning is not defined according to some value we wish an idea to have. To understand the meaning of a word we must 1st have knowledge of its possible linguistic meanings then we make use of the context in which it is being used to decide the correct meaning the word can have. However, we cannot make the words have new meanings that cannot be directly linked to the original meaning of the word. To do so is to make the qur'an useless and unintelligible. The Qur'an can modify meaning, expand meanings by explaining them in its own text etc...

So that such concepts are or are not in harmony with islam in general is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is what can the word mean and what does the context of the word indicate regarding the correct meaning.

salaam

pcborg,

Please cite the ayats that conform to your above reply that I have underlined. And the words I had highlighted speaks against your methodology of Quranic approach.

Peace,

.

drfazl

Brother, the evidence is clear on the physical actions involved in prayer, if my article does not convince you of this, perhaps the next article i write specifically on this point will be of use. Have patience as I have many things to attend to.
salaam,
Marwan

pcborg,

Take your own time. I pray for Patience!

Peace,

.

drfazl

It may not be her point, nevertheless it IS the logic involved in her point.
The physical act of bowing and prostration help to create the sense of humbleness. As they are directional motions in nature, there has for a long time been a direction associated with such practices. It unifies the worship of the ummah that Allah has unified the direction for this. Demontrate to me that logically praying in the direction of the Ka'baa implies that Allah must only be in that direction, and then I will agree with you.
Quote -
"2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the Earth glorifies God, even the birds assembled? Each knows its salat and its glorification."
We can easily see from this that all classes of things and beings may have their own way of doing it, there is not requirement from this ayah that all things and beings do salaat in the same way. Unless you can demonstrate that this does logically imply that all must pray in the same way, then your point is irrelivant.

salaam,
Marwan

pcborg,

The logic is an approach towards understanding the Truth; and the approach is highly individualistic. The end result whether they arrive at the Truth or not is the matter for concern. What is the Truth? Belief in Allah must be strengthened through the logic they follow; and you are not The One who shall assess the Iman of another.
I think you are not clear to yourself in your answer to the second point; you are bringing in the support of the practice in vogue. I think the contrary to what you have mentioned may be the truth.
Each of every creation in the heavens and on the earth knows its individual way of salaat; even a bee knows into which hole in the honey comb it must enter and when it shall come out and upon what flowers it must rest and feed upon; and you can see the birds doing salaat spreading its wings - once you it spread its wings it is on the move in all directions wherever Allah guides each of them and we see them in flocks and in pairs and in singles. So salaat is your obedience to Allah's commands in every walk of life as per the doctrines enshrined in the Quran and ordained upon us. It is the Guidance in life!

I will wait in patience and take your time.

Peace,

.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Pcborg,

I read your entire article on salaat, and I found it very good and consistent. Overall, the only factor that I disagreed with was your description of the "Friday prayer" - I interpreted "yawmi aljumaat" to refer to the day of assembly (or time of meeting), not necessarily falling on Friday, but being any day in which submitters gather together in worship... Other than this, though, I think your article on this subject is very good and extremely informative, and it's based on the reading. May Allah guide us all to the truth on this matter...

Peace,

Ahmad

drfazl

The context is not a situational context. Rather the context is the Qur'an itself. If you desire to interpret words without proper care to the qur'anic context, then you may as well discard the qur'an as guidance. It has become a Ouija Board to tap into your opinions.

salaam,
Marwan

pcborg,

If the context is not situational, then Quran is useless as Guidance. That is what you mean to convey? By the way what is "Quranic context"?

Peace,

.

pcborg

pcborg,

If the context is not situational, then Quran is useless as Guidance. That is what you mean to convey? By the way what is "Quranic context"?

Peace,

The context for interpretation is the Qur'an. The context for application is situational.

Situational considerations cannot dictate what the Qur'an means, else the Qur'an is not guidance at all. As an example, homosexuality has now been accepted as physically and psychologically safe, with homosexual pairings increasingly being allowed to adopt and raise children. We are also told that this is just as good as the father mother model.

So given that context or situation, would you seek to redefine the Qur'anic position on homosexuality?

How about if you were fooled into believing that homosexuality is genetic? (There is ironclad evidence which refutes this by the way, twin studies).

Would you then say "oh well, Allah cannot punish people if they have no control over what they do" and then go about using that situation to change the guidance of the Qur'an on this?

So on and so on.

Salaam,

pcborg

Salaam,

I will prepare the article inshallah in the next couple of weeks, I have been unusually busy of late... My apologies to any who await its appearance. Read my salat article until that time, it is sufficient if read logically.

salaam

pcborg

Peace Pcborg,

I read your entire article on salaat, and I found it very good and consistent. Overall, the only factor that I disagreed with was your description of the "Friday prayer" - I interpreted "yawmi aljumaat" to refer to the day of assembly (or time of meeting), not necessarily falling on Friday, but being any day in which submitters gather together in worship... Other than this, though, I think your article on this subject is very good and extremely informative, and it's based on the reading. May Allah guide us all to the truth on this matter...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam,

Thank you for your feedback. I have come across your opinion (not from you though) on the fridy prayer issue. I understand where you are coming from, so perhaps I should include my reason(s) for interpreting it in the way I do.

Salaam