Marriage Issue? How many wives/husbands?
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salam supernaut and sweden majidah. you have both comitted shirk. both of you have associated an article on a website with allah. it is bad enough that people try and associate hadith with the quran. when those who reject the quran, look for ways to reject, the first thing they do is commit shirk.
if the both of you find articles from anton lavey on a website on satanism, and you find it convincing, will you then claim you agree with anton lavey and satanism?
allah exposes falsehood with the truth.
Its alot more productive to provide basis for debate and discussion than just throwing accusations of heresy.
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I'm convinced that polygamy is allowed. Do you believe that the verse in the Quran that deals with marrying up to four wives means nothing?
There is no verse in the Arabic Quran that allows up to 4 wives...that fallacy ONLY exists in english and erroneous, misleading interpretations
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Peace,
That article made of Br Yaseen was the best one I have ever read of the polygamy issue.
Maria
Brotha Yaseen's article is excellent work, but there are a number of mistakes and misinterpretations.
Al-Nisa'a 4.3
yatama does NOT means 'orphans'
yatama sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one withoutparents; Root word atamm means more complete, more perfect, perfectly prepared, totally ready; Root word Tamm meaning consummate, of full value, self contained, needing no completion; Root word Tamma means to or become complete, completed, finished, done, to be performed, be accomplished, to come to an end; Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 117-118 (tamma)
Brother Yaseen did NOT account for the Ma / , negation
Ma Negative particle when placed BEFORE a perfect verb (taba / ) or BEFORE a pronoun or BEFORE a demonstrative noun. Also used as a negative particle BEFORE a perfect tense among verbal forms.; Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 523-524 (ma)
Brother Yaseen's reference and translation ? mina alnnisa-i? ?from the women? , 'mina' is incorrect and does not exist in the ayah .
/ manna an-nisa'i 'bestowed/blessed with Women'
Manna (with shaddah) means to be kind, gracious, show, grant, favor, blessing, benefits, award, present, give, bestow, bless; Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1084-1086 (man)
*The above example manna / versus 'mina', illustrates the problem with deleting or ignoring the harakat / diacritical characters in the Arabic Quran. The meaning, context and application of the ayah is perverted and corrupted when the harakat / diacritical characters are ignored.
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There is no verse in the Arabic Quran that allows up to 4 wives...that fallacy ONLY exists in english and erroneous, misleading interpretations
What do you believe 43 says and means?
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What do you believe 43 says and means?
Ma = NOT Taba = good/lawful Lakum =TO/For YOU to be given the Manna = favor/gift/blessing/benefit of Al Nisai = (get married to) Women Mathna = 2, Thulatha = 3, and Rubaa = 4 TIMES
Fain = Therefore Khiftum = If you fear Alla = that you will fall short of your duty and obligation in marriage taAAdiloo = to act justly Fa = conjunctive particle ADJECTIVE of Subject (An-Nisa) wahidatan = Then Marry ONE TIME indefinitely (NOT 2, 3 and 4 TIMES)
IT IS NOT LAWFUL to divorce get married, divorce get married, divorce get married again and divorce and get married again (and in doing so leave a family behind EACH time!)
The ayah is speaking to divorce NOT number of wives!
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Dear Fellow Muslim brothers and sisters,
Salam-un-alaikum
brickwall
Yaa
what is the opposite of marriage, i guess divorce, and does divorce leaves orphans? hmm
Why if and when separated for three or more times, the wife have to have another husband before marrying again to old hubby?
These issues of marriage and divorce are you know .....................Com........pli.......Cat.....ted.
And why not consult Sahoofe-ul-uula Sahoofe Ibraheema wa Moosa.Moses had two, both sisters, one after the other and this practice was later on forbidden.
Every body is an Aalim.brickwall
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salam. muslimtruthrevealed is forging lies against the quran.
there is nothing valid in her rubbish translations. to correct her errors would require pages of corrections.
allah exposes falsehood.
Is it possible for you to refrain from ad hominem attacks? You accuse people of lying, blaspheming, and idol worshiping all the time. It's unpleasant and it makes you look bad so you should stop for your own sake.
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salam. muslimtruthrevealed is forging lies against the quran.
there is nothing valid in her rubbish translations. to correct her errors would require pages of corrections.
allah exposes falsehood.
I'd probably agree. MTR, you never replied to one of my questions. So I couldn't agree with the "not allowed to marry more than four" argument.
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Opinions have no value in a intellectual discussion....
The other fallacy, just because you dont agree with something or in denial does not suggest that the argument lacks merit and truth.
Who really cares about your opinion or whether you disagree?
The Quran stands on its own, you cant change it, pervert it or modify it.
Get over it......
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Opinions have no value in a intellectual discussion....
The other fallacy, just because you dont agree with something or in denial does not suggest that the argument lacks merit and truth.
Who really cares about your opinion or whether you disagree?
The Quran stands on its own, you cant change it, pervert it or modify it.
Get over it......
Can you perhaps explain "sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one withoutparents" specifically the "one without parents". What's that supposed to be? What would a person have to qualify, to be a "alyatama"? Seriously, if you have something better than someone who is an orphan (such as one without a father) who is either ready for marriage age or not, then please make it clear.
Though I wouldn't specifically say, that if you can't provide for above, that you are forging lies; but I would say you'd be creating some by default (perhaps unintentionally).
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There is no restriction on the max number that one can marry , however , in case of widows, with children , who are likely to come under your guardian ship, the recommendation is to restrict such nikahs to 4, but if you can afford , you can go beyond this number as well.
siki
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There is no restriction on the max number that one can marry , however , in case of widows, with children , who are likely to come under your guardian ship, the recommendation is to restrict such nikahs to 4, but if you can afford , you can go beyond this number as well.
siki
Siki, Can you produce Quranic support for your statement please.
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Can you perhaps explain "sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one withoutparents" specifically the "one without parents". What's that supposed to be? What would a person have to qualify, to be a "alyatama"? Seriously, if you have something better than someone who is an orphan (such as one without a father) who is either ready for marriage age or not, then please make it clear.
Though I wouldn't specifically say, that if you can't provide for above, that you are forging lies; but I would say you'd be creating some by default (perhaps unintentionally).
Al-Yatama has a Definite Article , which makes the word COMPLETE, EXCLUSIVE, INCLUSIVE AND NON-EXCLUSIVE of ALL the meanings related to the root.
Here are the meanings and the roots
yatama sole, unmatched, single, lonely, jaded, one withoutparents; Root word atamm means more complete, more perfect, perfectly prepared, totally ready; Root word Tamm meaning consummate, of full value, self contained, needing no completion; Root word Tamma means to or become complete, completed, finished, done, to be performed, be accomplished, to come to an end;
An 'Orphan' is NOT
more complete (for marriage)
more perfect (for marriage)
perfectly prepared (for marriage)
totally ready (for marriage)
ready to consummate (marriage)
of full potential/value
self sufficient/contained
needing no guidance/completion (for marriage)
to or become complete (physically, intellectually, mentally,etc.)
completed (preparing for marriage)
finished (preparing for marriage)
done (preparing for marriage)
ready to perform (marriage)
ready to accomplish (marriage)
to come to an end (preparing for marriage)
When Allah refers to 'orphans' the word is yateem
And for His love they feed the food to the miskeen / the needy (who is reduced to poverty) and the yateem / orphan and aseer / captive.
No, No! but you honour not the orphans / al-yateema!
?Al? is a Definite Article , used to give the meaning of ?Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to denote comprehensiveness, all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.
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Salaam
first of all I am sorry that after starting a thread i was unable to post in it for some time.
Actually this issue of marriage is very important and if get a correct or near to correct answer it will lead us to solve many unresolved issues.As i assumed correctly, like many other issues we are confused regarding this isuue too. What the article recommended by supernaut and majidah says, i will comment on it later but yet we have not understood what is being asked.
Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man.
Therefore it is complicated situation, Quran talks about Polygyne and not about polyandry.Before starting discussion on the issue let me please comment on the article mentioned by some of posters.
As usual like most of the moderen day scholars do, the article starts with right away bashing of old scholars, underminining there works all what has been happening from centuries just based on myth bla bla. I am sorry to say after reading the first paragraph of the article I cannot rate it as excellent at least, as majidah or any other might think.
Well we discuss it in detail in my next post. -
Salaam'
First of all we have to get out of the inferiority complex. Yaseen, I think is a European and is definitely impressed by many of the existing cultural values there. Well we have no objection to that. But the problem starts when impressed by some latest ideology or cultural value he tries to change the Quran according to his own wishes and thoughts. Off course I am not saying that he or any one who does this have bad intentions.
For example consider why this issue of many wives was not raised till a century ago? with all these crackers, simply because it was not an issue then. Presently in Europe Muslims are bashed and criticised for practicing polygene, because Europeans think it is not good not just, however they would have no objection if women too are allowed to practice polyandry. They forget that few centuries back the Hindus, and even Jews practiced Polygene. In Judaism Polygene was permitted. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had 2 wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygene continued until Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah. (960 A.D to 1030 A.D) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, when an Act of the chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.
Slavery is another example for which Islam is criticised, more than ever at present. Again, until last century the west was the champion of slavery most of their wealth owes to the trading of slaves, but as soon it was abolished and its negative points over came its positive points, many Muslim scholars came ahead trying to convince that Islam was the first to abolish slavery. That was with good intentions but not the reality.
I have never seen so much deviation from original meanings of ayat as is done in this article.
What I mean to say is that when the writer starts reading Quran to answer a question he has already arrived at a conclusion, the conclusion that Polygene is not good and not just.
There have been many explanations to above ayat of Surah Nisa. The one that fits the most according to our understanding, we will discuss it shortly.
We must know that Quran was not send to us in a book shape it was revealed, part by part, many of the Ayats are general and many are specific for the problems of the people those were faced at the time.
After the battle of Uhd, when many Muslims were killed, many new problems arose which were never there before. One was of the orphans and widows.Now let us discuss the Ayat and its meanings and translation according to Yaseen.
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Salaam;
He has derived two rules from two different ayats as following
Rule #1 In a society, God is commanding us to only marry off the unmarried.Rule#2
Verse (420) Taking one wife in place of another.The first rule he derived from the Ayat which says
?You shall encourage those of you who are single to get married. They may marry the righteous among your male and female slaves, if they are poor. GOD will enrich them from His grace. GOD is Bounteous, Knower?.
This ayat obviously tells us to encourage those who are single and do not want to marry because of the fear that they are poor and they cannot afford marriage. VERY CLEAR AND VERY SIMPLE. The writer does not even realize for a moment that this ayat goes against his own theory which he is trying to use in his favor. Allah is relaxing the condition for those who cannot afford to marry with a girl of a Noble or good family due to fear of being poor, to may marry with righteous slaves. This clearly indicates that there is a difference between marrying a slave and not a slave. It is easier to marry a slave then not slave because one has lesser obligations towards her.
But this Ayat no where says that you should marry only once.
Therefore, we can derive from this that Allah wants each one poor or rich to marry but there is no limit for that at least in this ayat.
And the word ?only? is only added by the writer to make the rule #1.And at the same time he agrees that Prophet had more than one wives at a time. But gives his logic that Prophet
Muhammed?s polygamous marriages are not an example for us to follow or
copy. (Wow!)
Ok, for sake of agreement we agree. Therefore then the writer agrees that Quran allows polygene even though for a single person? (however I have not seen any ayat where it is prohibited for others).The second rule is derived from 420
Now if we read two verses before and after this verse, it gives us a clear picture that here Divorce is being discussed and Allah has at various places in Quran disliked Divorce.
No connection whatsoever this Ayat has with number of wives one could have.
In these Ayats Allah is telling that try to live with your wives even if you don?t like, but if you have decided to change them with other ???.O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a proven adultery. You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good.
If you wish to marry another wife, in place of your present wife, and you had given any of them a great deal, you shall not take back anything you had given her. Would you take it fraudulently, maliciously, and sinfully?It is ?MEHR? and ?Talaaq? being discussed here. Off course when you divorce a wife you have to leave her.
But we are talking about having number of wives at the same time, not divorcing the previous. We are talking about the case of Muhammad and as in the case of those that our right hand possesses.In next post we will comment on the last part of his article.
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In the last part of article writer says
I do not accept the idea that some men are abusing of permission in the name of God that may be useful in exceptional circumstances. I accept that people could do evil things, but I find it harder to accept if they use God?s word to justify it.Is there justification of polygamy in the Quran?
First he considers that polygamy is an evil thing; and then asks Is there any justification of polygamy in Quran?
That is my point. He has decided in his mind that Polygamy is evil and after reaching the conclusion he starts reading Quran.
Actually he has not considered that this Ayats were revealed for a purpose. As we were discussing above that after Battle of Uhd, Muslims lost almost half of their men. That was a big blow to Muslims, new social problems arose. Many Muslims who were killed in Uhd had more than one wives and many children, they became widows and orphans.
The state was not rich enough to support them. Now state had to react, it asked some Muslims to take care of Orphans, may be giving each Muslim a task of taking care of at least four orphans besides there own kids. This was a hard task, for a human being to be just. Now read the Ayat 43
at the very beginning of the Ayat 43 we see Allah setting a conditional clause for Orphans "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans...(43)" This Noble Verse came down for the purpose of protecting the Orphans and to increase the number of the Muslims by allowing the men to marry multiple wives. The purpose was absolutely not for man's sexual pleasure nor privilege, nor was it to support man's personal ego. It was revealed to solve a major social problem to prevent major sins such as illegal sex and prostitution.
Once those orphans had become your wives legally, lesser became the chances of being unjust to them and their financial problems became duty of their husbands.
Polygamy is not encouraged in the Quran, nor Allah had allowed it because He really liked it. He was clearly careful to highly discourage polygamy to men by telling them "but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one...(43)" which clearly orders men to either be fair or to not marry other than the wife they had, because this limited allowing was for being just.
Is this a contradiction then? As the writer of the article thinks. Absolutely not!. It clearly proves that when Allah allowed polygamy, He only allowed it because the Muslims had an emergency; we lost almost half of our men if not even more. When Islam later became much stronger and Muslims defeated the infidels in the continuing battles that were forced upon them Allah nullified the excuse that he gave to men to practice polygamy, which would then lead to prohibiting polygamy altogether, in the following Ayat 4129.
Now only the issue of ?what right hand possess is left?? we will discuss it later.
Besides that let us consider is it Possible to Put a complete Ban on Polygamy? Or is it better to allow it in emergencies as Allah did.During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.
One of Islamic scholar Dr. zakir Naik has to say this
"Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million more females in USA who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. I have posed this question to hundreds of non-Muslims and all opted for the first. However a few smart people before accepting, said they would prefer their sisters to remain virgins. Biologically, it is not possible for an average man or a woman to remain celibate throughout life. It may be possible in exceptional cases of one in ten thousand. In the vast majority, the person either gets married or performs illicit sex or indulges in other sexual perversions. Sex hormones are released in the adult body every day. That is the reason why Islam has prohibited monasticism.
In Western society it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life.
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second. There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women."Therefore Polygene is allowed in Islam that is for sure. Why and How? is what we are discussing
If majidah or superanut have any comments on this they are welcome so we can discuss the "right hand issue". -
Now at last we will discuss the 43?.?aw ma malakat aymanukum? lit or what your right hands possessed,
The writer of article says
?ma malakat aymanukum? (MMA) can be found in the Quran to refer to different groups of people and women in different situations. The context is very important; this is not referring to slaves or captives.
please read the following Ayat
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
and now read the verse
And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice then one or that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
We know through the previous ayat that rights of slave women are half of that of a free women. So if not sure that we can be just then one wife is enough and in addition to that Free wife the slave women who can take care of the Orphans.
Why Allah makes a difference between a Slave women and free women, why allows men to have many slave women at a time in addition to wife?
These are questions which keep on hammering my mind since long time.
We are in process of understanding but one thing is for sure I never want to change Quran according to my own wishes. Weather I like slavery or not, weather i like polygyny or not.