The Sadducees, The Pharisees and the Zoroastrian Connection
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Peace Bigmo,
Thanks for the reply.
Summary
The concepts of Hell and the Devil vaguely formed in the Old Testament would solidify in the inter-Testamental period in the writings of the Apocrypha and the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the time of the New Testament, those concepts would become an integral part of Christian theology, which describes a final victory by Christ over Satan and his minions. And after that final victory, a final judgment will eternally consign Satan and his followers to Hell.So its official. Post-babylonian Judaism influenced the DSS sect which is confirmed in the Quran. If the Quran is true which I believe it is so there must be a tradition before Zoroastrianism and Babylon that deals with the afterlife. Could it be Millat Ibrahim? Could it be that the scriptures of Abraham influenced Zoroastrianism. Could Islam be a very ancient Abrahamic tradition and the Quran was there to revive and purify it and ammend it? Is that why the Quran talks as if its target audience know that tradition? Is that why Moses and Jethro went to pilgrimages before the Exodus!? Is that why Moses was ordered to hold to the salat before he was even given the commandments? We will end this topic here and discuss this in a new thread.
Peace,
Rami.
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Peace Bigmo,
Thanks for the reply.
Summary
The concepts of Hell and the Devil ? vaguely formed in the Old Testament ? would solidify in the inter-Testamental period in the writings of the Apocrypha and the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the time of the New Testament, those concepts would become an integral part of Christian theology, which describes a final victory by Christ over Satan and his minions. And after that final victory, a final judgment will eternally consign Satan and his followers to Hell.So its official. Post-babylonian Judaism influenced the DSS sect which is confirmed in the Quran. If the Quran is true which I believe it is so there must be a tradition before Zoroastrianism and Babylon that deals with the afterlife. Could it be Millat Ibrahim? Could it be that the scriptures of Abraham influenced Zoroastrianism. Could Islam be a very ancient Abrahamic tradition and the Quran was there to revive and purify it and ammend it? Is that why the Quran talks as if its target audience know that tradition? Is that why Moses and Jethro went to pilgrimages before the Exodus!? Is that why Moses was ordered to hold to the salat before he was even given the commandments? We will end this topic here and discuss this in a new thread.
Peace,
Rami.
I am not sure what you mean by tradition. The pagans knew Judaism and Christianity. As far as Millat Ibraheem I understand that as monotheism. The issue of Salat and other rituals like fasting and pilgrimage is an ongoing debate here. I personally see the Koran as a confirmation of previous scriptures and a final warning to mankind. Of course Koranist will differ as to what extent the Koran confirms the previous scriptures. Some will say it confirms it all, others would say most of it while others would say it confirms some of it.
The issue of Zoroastrian influences has been discussed here and some her have pointed out the similarities of salat according to Zoroastrian traditions and Sunni/Shia sectarianism. Other Muslims have also pointed that out even if they are not Koranist. Others here have also pointed out the similarities between Haj and Arab paganism. The issue of fasting is another issue debated here. The reason why its a big issue is because many of us come from a Sunni/Shia background where these things were standard rituals detailed and established in specific ways. We are always confronted with that whenever we see Muslims or watch TV. So thats why its an issue for many of us. Christians would hardly care about how to perform rituals. They are used to performing in a variety of ways or not performing them at all. Jews are like sectarian Islam grounded in rituals and traditions also set in sepcific ways and detailed but few actually perform them regularly. Plus they are not allowing themselves to be known. They are stuck into themselves. Only Islamic sects perform these rituals in a specific way and do so in heavy numbers. My family itself performs these rituals that way and i am always having to argue with Muslims about them. So its not surprising that these will be important issues for many Koranist. We must be carefull however not to speculate about its origins or its proper performing. Maybe its wise we accept that they can be performed in a variety of ways as long as the intention is good and the objective is sound and it does not contradict the Koran.
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Peace all,
I would like to share a video that proves that Jesus was not against the oral Jewish tradition but actually supported it. This puts the theory 'tradition of men' is the Talmud to the grave. Plus the Quran support to many stories and concepts in the Talmud which proves the oral Torah has some divinity.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OPkEusjZXg
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Peace all,
I would like to share a video that proves that Jesus was not against the oral Jewish tradition but actually supported it. This puts the theory 'tradition of men' is the Talmud to the grave. Plus the Quran support to many stories and concepts in the Talmud which proves the oral Torah has some divinity.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OPkEusjZXg
And some of the hadith may have validity. But its impossible to know which ones. There are references in the Talmud you can find in the Koran but yet there are condemnations in the Koran about some of the Talmudic teachings as the case with Jesus in Mark 7 1-9.
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And some of the hadith may have validity. But its impossible to know which ones. There are references in the Talmud you can find in the Koran but yet there are condemnations in the Koran about some of the Talmudic teachings as the case with Jesus in Mark 7 1-9.
The problem what if they are commandments from the Creator. We are cooked. D How can I differentiate?
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Peace liquid,
The Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife for a reason. It is not found in the Hebrew scriptures. It is started with Zoroastrianism entering into the oral Jewish traditions then the NT and the Quran. We can say that the Jewish tradition contain revelations from God because it seems when the Quran says we have wrote for the children of Israel so and so, you find it in the Talmud and not in the Hebrew bible!
Peace,
Rami
Why pick on the Zoroastrians? The Greeks and Romans believed in the afterlife. Plato dismissed almost the entirety of Pagan mythology but he still believed in the Immortality of the Soul. It's almost certain that the Jewish people would have been familiar with stories about the afterlife before they were conquered by the Babylonians and then Zoroastrian Persians.
But there is mention of Phoenicians influencing Judaism in the Bible -
http//phoenicia.org/jerusalem.html
In the 14th Century B.C., King Abdi Hepa, king of the Phoenician Canaanites, wrote to the Pharaoh Akhnaton and implored him to rid Jerusalem of new invaders. He described a group of people known as the "Habirus", as having already conquered Rushada, and advancing on Jerusalem. In the Bible, the story of Abraham mentions Melchizedek, the King of Salem (King of Jerusalem) and Priest of the Most High God (El Elion), who offered bread and wine to Abraham.
In 1000 B.C., King David, conquered Jerusalem, and established it as his capital. At the time of his conquest, the city was known as "Jebus" but he renamed it Jerusalem, once again.
Phoenician Canaanite High-Priestly "Apostolic Succession" of Yahweh's Temple
King David re-invested the Phoenician Canaanite High-Priest of Jerusalem to continue functioning in that position. Scholars have noticed two high priests are referred to in the account of Kind David's life Abiathar and Zadok. Abiathar is mentioned early in the narratives, even before David is (e.g. 1 Samuel 2220), but Zadok the Priest appears suddenly, and only after the conquest of Jerusalem. Zadok was the Canaanite High Priest of Jerusalem, whom David permitted to continue to serve. Further, Zadok would also have been King of Jerusalem (city-state like all other Phoenician city-states). It is known that both functions were played by the same person in these Phoenician city-states. Zadok is identified with Araunah, the person who sold David the threshing floor for the purpose of building the altar (2 Samuel 2418-25). The word Araunah is not a personal name; rather, it is a title meaning "the Lord." King David conformed to the tradition which Abraham started when he recognized the validity of the older Phoenician Canaanite High-Priest and King of Jerusalem, Melchizedek.The Sadducee's were descended from the Phoenician priestly caste. That's why they believed in God, but not in the afterlife. If there isn't any mention of the afterlife in the early books, it might well be because they intentionally excluded it.
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Double post.
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Why pick on the Zoroastrians? The Greeks and Romans believed in the afterlife. Plato dismissed almost the entirety of Pagan mythology but he still believed in the Immortality of the Soul. It's almost certain that the Jewish people would have been familiar with stories about the afterlife before they were conquered by the Babylonians and then Zoroastrian Persians.
But there is mention of Phoenicians influencing Judaism in the Bible -
http//phoenicia.org/jerusalem.html
The Sadducee's were descended from the Phoenician priestly caste. That's why they believed in God, but not in the afterlife. If there isn't any mention of the afterlife in the early books, it might well be because they intentionally excluded it.
I pick on the Zoroastrians because the Jewish people came into contact with them in Babylon and with Cyrus the King. Nice link, but it has many unsubstantiated claims. There is no evidence that there was a King Solomon or David or a temple in this place whatsoever. Jerusalem is devoid of any evidence of Hebrew civilization before the second temple. At least for now. Agreed on the origins of the Sadducees. Exclusion of eschatological concepts and rationalization of the Torah in Babylon is very possible. This is because I have never seen or heard of a pre-babylonian Pentateuch.
Peace,
Rami
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I pick on the Zoroastrians because the Jewish people came into contact with them in Babylon and with Cyrus the King. Nice link, but it has many unsubstantiated claims. There is no evidence that there was a King Solomon or David or a temple in this place whatsoever. Jerusalem is devoid of any evidence of Hebrew civilization before the second temple. At least for now. Agreed on the origins of the Sadducees. Exclusion of eschatological concepts and rationalization of the Torah in Babylon is very possible. This is because I have never seen or heard of a pre-babylonian Pentateuch.
Peace,
Rami
There is some Biblical video documentaries by the History channel like Banned from the Bible or who wrote the Bible etc. Maybe you should take a look at them. They are on the net and u can start with youtube or Guba to find them.
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There is some Biblical video documentaries by the History channel like Banned from the Bible or who wrote the Bible etc. Maybe you should take a look at them. They are on the net and u can start with youtube or Guba to find them.
Thanks. I saw those documentaries before. Very excting. There is one about the Quran.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ0kMTMovg4
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mu3cKat5jEPeace.
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More proof that the Quran is confirming the Midrash. The Jews are noticing this. I am Geomystery who commented on the first video.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYdCkyoyss8
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbc8f6nnnFE
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmToiQSffbAPeace,
Rami
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Thank you Rami!
Very interesting thread, pity that some links to videos are dead.