men are better than women according to drfazl
-
Peace be upon you all,
This is an aspect of Islam I always wanted to understand. Usually, the people who reside in Western countries claim that women and men in the Quran are equal; however, I see those who reside in Arabian/Asian countries firmly believe men are better than women and see women as inferior to a man. A member here by the userid drfazl holds such views and I was interested as to what other people had to say.
You can reach the thread here ( http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33442#33442 ) and here are drfazl's comments
Man Is A Degree Above Women
Man Equals Two Womendrfazl wrote
" Man " is a shade above in degree in Wisdom over women. Use your Wisdom to Beat your wives' Ignorance.
Fear Allah!FK wrote
Could you please provide any verses that tell men are more intelligent than women drfazl?002228
But men have a degree over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.002282
And get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.Please reach with your wisdom to the above verses and deliver your understanding. I want you to explain also this why Allah has not chosen messengers among women.
drfazl
-
Peace all,
This part "But men have a degree over them" doesn't make sence without the context and doesn't imply that man is superior to the women, the word "AAalayhinna" is a key word which can imply some obligations towards the wife.
We read in the same verse ?walahunna mithlu allathee AAalayhinna? which is translated ?And for what obligations the women are owed (walahunna) , so similarly (mithlu) must they fulfil their obligations (AAalayhinna)?.
FM
2228. And the divorced women shall wait for three menstruation periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands would then have just cause to return together, if they both wish to reconcile. And for what obligations the women are owed, so similarly must they fulfil their obligations. But the men will have a greater responsibility over them (AAalayhinna) in this. And God is Noble, Wise.A. Shabir
2228 After divorce, women shall wait three menstruations before remarriage. There is no waiting period for a woman who is divorced before intimate relations with her husband (3349). And it is three months if they do not habitually menstruate (654). They shall not conceal pregnancy if they believe in Allah and in the Hereafter. In case of pregnancy, their waiting period shall be until delivery (654). And during this period their husbands would do better to take them back if both of them desire reconciliation. The husband and the wife have the right to reconcile during this waiting period of the wife. Women have rights similar to those of men in mutual kindness. Men, however, do not have a waiting period for remarriage for obvious physiological reasons. That is where men are on a platform different from them. ((2228-234), (43), (419), (435), (412, (3349), (581), (651-4)).Marie
-
Peace be upon you,
Marie, thanks for your input. With the Arabic verses that you've given, it seems to me that you speak/understand Arabic. This question has been bugging me for about a decade now and its because of such issues that I don't call myself a "Muslim" yet.
Could you please do me this favor
-
Translate from word-to-word what the verse that includes "beat" from Arabic to English (yes, literally - no implied meaning).
-
Translate this verse 2228 (your translation please, not FM's)
-
Finally, the verse that talks about the testimony of two women = one man.
I'll really appreciate any comments you/someone else might have to say.
-
-
Peace FK,
Translate from word-to-word what the verse that includes "beat" from Arabic to English (yes, literally - no implied meaning).
I think you need to consider the validity of this approach. We know the Qur'an has many figurative expressions.
564 The Jews say "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
-
Peace FK,
I don't agree men are more wise. I am with Sr Marie on this one.
He bestows wisdom upon whomever He chooses, and whoever attains wisdom, has attained a great bounty. Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
Infact there is no verse in the Qur'an that says men are given more wisdom.
002228
But men have a degree over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.Anyone quoting that as evidence is taking a leap of faith... roll
regards
-
marie,
Can you eloborate on this?But the men will have a greater responsibility over them (AAalayhinna) in this.
why men ?
why not women?
What is the difference between men and women?
why were not women endowed with greater responsibility? say, women are not chosen for the prophethood or messengership. Why?
Women's name never got mentioned in The Book. Why? except maryam. Even abulahab is mentioned. but not even the names of the wives of prophet? Why?
drfazl
-
And you answer to all this is that drfazl because....
a. women are inferior
b. women are not capable
c. God hates women, but just created them for reproduction purposes?
(yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s).) -
Peace FK,
- Translate from word-to-word what the verse that includes "beat" from Arabic to English (yes, literally - no implied meaning).
Please see Edip Yuksel's site
http//www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm
Article in part
Does the Quran Permit Men to Beat Their Wives?
And here is the popular Yusuf Ali translation of the entire (much-disputed) verse
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Here is our translation of the same passage, with appropriate sidebar references to disputed passages
Men take care of women ? since God has endowed some with qualities that differ in degree, and since men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God), and during the absence (of their husbands), they honor them according to God's commandment, even when alone in their privacy. As for those women who bring about in you a fear of disloyalty, you shall first advise them. Then (if they continue), you may desert them in bed. Then, (if they continue), you may leave them. If they obey you, (however,) then you must not do any wrong against them. God is Most High, Supreme. ? 434The rationale for this translation is explained in detail on the site.
Personally the latter translation makes more sense. Given a problem between husband and wife, the latter translation offers a more logical progression of actions. First, adivse them. Second, don't sleep with them. Next, if things are still going poorly, seperate.
-
Answer First
Question NextAnd you answer to all this is that drfazl because....
a. women are inferior
b. women are not capable
c. God hates women, but just created them for reproduction purposes?
(yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s).)FK
I do not know why you are embarrased or avoiding to answer my questions before asking questions if any? All the questions above are not what allah has ever mentioned.
Anyway the answers are
Women are inferior
If I am not mistaken, this is your assumption in the negative to what I have cited from Allah, Who has mentioned that men are a degree above women. You must answer why your assumption is on the side of chaos and destruction.
Women are not capable
Again the same misfortune. Why this question over that which Allah has never said? Neither did I, except that I quoted from what Allah has said! Here is an ayat for you to get clarified. Will you answer this without again putting a question in the negative, for an answer ?
004034
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.c. God hates women, but just created them for reproduction purposes?
(yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s).)What to say of this ! You are so strongly accusing HIM for your supposition and misunderstanding - (yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s)) - for which Allah is not responsible at all.
With regard to reproduction, Allah does not need a womb or a woman for creation or even for reproduction. He Creates from nothingness; before you were created you were not even a matter of anyting that you know of.
Recite and Rehearse These Following Three Ayahs
019.067
But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?030030
Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know029.020
Say "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation for Allah has power over all thingsFK
First Answer and then ask Questions. Asking a question for an answer is not welcome.drfazl
-
INSPECT YOURSELF
BEFORE POINTING TOWARDS OTHERSFirst Answer and then ask Questions. Asking a question for an answer is not welcome.
drfazl perhaps you should apply this to yourself first
As far as I see, you haven't answered any of the questions posed by me here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33442#33442
Then, WHO ARE YOU to point at me?I do not know why you are embarrased or avoiding to answer my questions before asking questions if any?
Again, you have not posed any question to me. You posed questions to MARIE, I am not her. So please read your own posts first prior to pointing out at others!
What to say of this ! You are so strongly accusing HIM for your supposition and misunderstanding
Please read and if you don't understand, re-read again to make sure before making false assumptions. I never accused G-O-D of anything. Neither did I accuse you of anything. I wanted to clairfy you belief system as to which cult they come from.
First Answer and then ask Questions. Asking a question for an answer is not welcome.
I don't think I need any advice from someone with such understandings. Besides I don't even know you, this is maybe by 10th or 11th post here and you have never asked me any question other than the one you very rudely posed above. And I don't see who you are to tell me what's welcome and what's not. This is a forum - look up the meaning of forum in a dictionary, the questions posed here are open to all the members, not you alone.
I think it'd be best if I don't further communicate with you because it doesn't seem to me you have the the capability to understand what I am trying to communicate here.
-
Dear FK
I understand your feelings very well. It is true that women are not that often mentioned and are spoken to, addressed as men. But in old arabic literature women were never mentioned except of course that she`s the beloved one... but they were never addressed. The Quran mentions them a lot of time ... al Muslimat, al Muminat..... This was new then. Also the Quran mentions problems of women which was new also, who cared then about women?
Maybe this helps a little bit?
-
Mustering Public Opinion
Against The Verses ?FK wrote
I can't believe you hold the understanding that men are better than womenIt is not me but Allah's Book says so. And yet you cannot believe. I have given the quotes from the Book, if you are interested in the verses of it. So far you have not cared to submit to the ayats but interested in only chatting outside of the Book of Allah. Your position is to muster public opinion over allah's dictum. Fine! I mistook you that you will discuss quran. Nothing of that sort I find with you. Here is a sample of what you said
FK wrote
To answer your question, though I can't go into God's thinking, this is my assumption from what I've heard/read....You cannot ponder yourself in the Way God has asked you to recite and rehearse, but assume and follow the hearsays. I made a mistake in assuming you will speak of the BOOK. I am sorry.
FK wrote
- The pharoh of Egypt had several wives (some were his own biological daughters) and in his narrow mind women were inferior to men.
The above has nothing to do with Quran. This is Free Minds on Islam / comments on the Quran. Worse you talk about the men written history. It is mistake I took you seriously and started quoting the ayats which you threw behind your back.
FK wrote
However, I've got a question for you drfazl
I am not sure if you have any children. But lets assume you have a son and a daughter. Would you see your daughter being inferior to your son?Did I ever say women are inferior?
Men are a grade above women is what Allah says. It is not me. And I see that is true. Quran is held true over your sentimental falsehoodson and daughter ... son is a grade above daughter
wife and husband ... male is a degree above
mother and father ... father is a position above mother.Will you atleast now ponder over the ayats and comeback to -> Questions/Comments on the Quran, what this section of the forum is intended for ? Instead of non quranic chat FK? Your postings thus far is like asking for votes against the verses of Quran. Enter into discussion of standards!
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33481#33481
Now answer the thread I am leading you to please.. If you do not wish to..I appreciate your position here
FK wrote
I think it'd be best if I don't further communicate with you because it doesn't seem to me you have the the capability to understand what I am trying to communicate here.That is OK with me. It is your right to assume in your humble opinion I have no capability to understand your hearsays. But I have to remind once again this is Question / Comments on Quran forum. I think FK, you have the capability to understand. I apologise to Allah if I had posted anything wrong to whoever it may be of concern.
drfazl
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, atleast to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, insuch a way that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.
-
Peace all,
"walilrrijali AAalayhinna darajatun" in 2228 is not the same thing than "warafaAAna (to raise) baAAdahum fawqa (over)baAAdin darajatin" in the following verses.
walilrrijali means the men will have/ have and not the men is.
Let us read 47
- Men get/will have a share of what the parents and near relatives leave behind. Women get/will have a share of what the parents and near relatives leave behind. Women have the right to own property (412). Whether the inheritance is small or large, these shares have been ordained as a duty
Lilrrijali naseebun mimmataraka alwalidani waal-aqraboona walilnnisa-i naseebun mimma taraka alwalidani waal-aqraboonamimma qalla minhu aw kathura naseeban mafroodan
as I already said it, AAalayhinna implies obligations toward the women.
-
Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.
Tilka alrrusulu faddalnabaAAdahum AAala baAAdin minhum man kallamaAllahu warafaAAa baAAdahum darajatin waataynaAAeesa ibna maryama albayyinati waayyadnahubiroohi alqudusi walaw shaa Allahu maiqtatala allatheena min baAAdihim min baAAdi ma jaat-humualbayyinatu walakini ikhtalafoo faminhum man amanawaminhum man kafara walaw shaa Allahu maiqtataloo walakinna Allaha yafAAalu mayureedu -
And He is the One who made you inheritors on Earth, and He raised some of you over others in grades, to test you with what He had given you. Your Lord is quick to punishment, and He is Forgiving, Merciful.
Wahuwa allathee jaAAalakum khala-ifaal-ardi warafaAAa baAAdakum fawqa baAAdin darajatin liyabluwakum fee ma atakuminna rabbaka sareeAAu alAAiqabi wa-innahu laghafoorun raheemun -
Is it they who assign your Lord's mercy? We have assigned their shares in this worldly life, and We raised some of them above others in ranks, so that they would take one another in service. The mercy from your Lord is far better than that which they amass.
Ahum yaqsimoona rahmata rabbika nahnuqasamna baynahum maAAeeshatahum fee alhayatialddunya warafaAAna baAAdahum fawqa baAAdin darajatin liyattakhitha baAAduhumbaAAdan sukhriyyan warahmatu rabbika khayrun mimmayajmaAAoona
Those who are not equal
-
Not equal are those who stayed behind from the believers; except those disabled; with those who strived in the cause of God with their money and lives. God has preferred those who strive with their money and lives over those who stayed behind by a grade; and to both God has promised goodness; and God has preferred the strivers over those who stay by a great reward.
La yastawee alqaAAidoona minaalmu/mineena ghayru olee alddarari waalmujahidoonafee sabeeli Allahi bi-amwalihim waanfusihim faddalaAllahu almujahideena bi-amwalihimwaanfusihim AAala alqaAAideena darajatan wakullanwaAAada Allahu alhusna wafaddala Allahualmujahideena AAala alqaAAideena ajran AAatheeman -
Say ?I do not say to you that I posses God?s treasures, nor do I know the future, nor do I say to you that I am an Angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me.? Say ?Are the blind and the seer the same?; do you not think??
Qul la aqoolu lakum AAindee khaza-inuAllahi wala aAAlamu alghayba wala aqoolulakum innee malakun in attabiAAu illa ma yoohailayya qul hal yastawee al-aAAma waalbaseeruafala tatafakkaroona -
Is one who was a believer the same as one who was wicked? They are not the same.
Afaman kana mu/minan kaman kanafasiqan la yastawoona -
As for one who is meditating in the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord. Say ?Are those who know equal to those who do not know?? Only those who possess understanding will remember.
Amman huwa qanitun anaaallayli sajidan waqa-iman yahtharu al-akhiratawayarjoo rahmata rabbihi qul hal yastawee allatheenayaAAlamoona waallatheena la yaAAlamoonainnama yatathakkaru oloo al-albabi
-
And not equal are the blind and the seer; nor those who believe and do good works, and those who do evil. Little do you remember.
Wama yastawee al-aAAma waalbaseeruwaallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihatiwala almusee-o qaleelan ma tatathakkaroona -
Not equal are the dwellers of the Fire and the dwellers of Paradise; the dwellers of Paradise are the winners.
La yastawee as-habu alnnariwaas-habu aljannati as-habu aljannatihumu alfa-izoona
My conclusion the woman and the man completes themselves, the following verses summarize well the position
- And do not envy what God has favoured some of you over others. For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained. And ask God from His favour, God is knowledgeable over all things.
Wala tatamannaw ma faddalaAllahu bihi baAAdakum AAala baAAdinlilrrijali naseebun mimma iktasaboo walilnnisa-i naseebun mimma iktasabnawais-aloo Allaha min fadlihi inna Allahakana bikulli shay-in AAaleeman
Peace
Marie
-
Salam All !
Marie, we are really lucky to have you here...at least I am. Very happy to know that drfazl is not a degree above me as he says, and that my son is not a degree above my daughter, at least not just because they are men... That's only his wishfull thinking.
Elke
Elke
-
dear all
if men have a resposibility over women doesn't that mean men are a degree higher? if we are not then why two female witnesses=1 male? marie every ayat has a much deeper meaning than what we see. if quran is just to be followed litterally than why does Allah ask us to ponder the ayats? is quran just a story book? the way marie puts it is like you have to speak arabic to understand the quran while infact there is no language barrier. Allah says so. wisdom comes from Allah not anyone else. peace
shariff D -
Salam Sharif 69, all,
no, you don't need to speak arabic, but you still have to search the truth. Throughout quran specific words are used in specific circumstances - and allah doesn't say that women are not equal to men - that's what Marie's message means.
Now, you're the one who is interpreting that because you have a responsability with regard to someone this someone is not your equal.
I have a responsabilit? to my children - but this certainly doesn't mean that I'm above them. The captain of a ship has responsabilities towards his sailors - which has nothing to do with them being/or not being equal to their captain as human beings.Same for your employer and so on...Men and women are different, their roles in life are different, at least generally throughout the world - that doesn't make them unequal as human beings.
Elke