men are better than women according to drfazl
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And you answer to all this is that drfazl because....
a. women are inferior
b. women are not capable
c. God hates women, but just created them for reproduction purposes?
(yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s).) -
Peace FK,
- Translate from word-to-word what the verse that includes "beat" from Arabic to English (yes, literally - no implied meaning).
Please see Edip Yuksel's site
http//www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm
Article in part
Does the Quran Permit Men to Beat Their Wives?
And here is the popular Yusuf Ali translation of the entire (much-disputed) verse
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Here is our translation of the same passage, with appropriate sidebar references to disputed passages
Men take care of women ? since God has endowed some with qualities that differ in degree, and since men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God), and during the absence (of their husbands), they honor them according to God's commandment, even when alone in their privacy. As for those women who bring about in you a fear of disloyalty, you shall first advise them. Then (if they continue), you may desert them in bed. Then, (if they continue), you may leave them. If they obey you, (however,) then you must not do any wrong against them. God is Most High, Supreme. ? 434The rationale for this translation is explained in detail on the site.
Personally the latter translation makes more sense. Given a problem between husband and wife, the latter translation offers a more logical progression of actions. First, adivse them. Second, don't sleep with them. Next, if things are still going poorly, seperate.
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Answer First
Question NextAnd you answer to all this is that drfazl because....
a. women are inferior
b. women are not capable
c. God hates women, but just created them for reproduction purposes?
(yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s).)FK
I do not know why you are embarrased or avoiding to answer my questions before asking questions if any? All the questions above are not what allah has ever mentioned.
Anyway the answers are
Women are inferior
If I am not mistaken, this is your assumption in the negative to what I have cited from Allah, Who has mentioned that men are a degree above women. You must answer why your assumption is on the side of chaos and destruction.
Women are not capable
Again the same misfortune. Why this question over that which Allah has never said? Neither did I, except that I quoted from what Allah has said! Here is an ayat for you to get clarified. Will you answer this without again putting a question in the negative, for an answer ?
004034
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.c. God hates women, but just created them for reproduction purposes?
(yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s).)What to say of this ! You are so strongly accusing HIM for your supposition and misunderstanding - (yes, I said "hate" because not mentioning the names implies that you dislike a particular person(s)) - for which Allah is not responsible at all.
With regard to reproduction, Allah does not need a womb or a woman for creation or even for reproduction. He Creates from nothingness; before you were created you were not even a matter of anyting that you know of.
Recite and Rehearse These Following Three Ayahs
019.067
But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?030030
Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know029.020
Say "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation for Allah has power over all thingsFK
First Answer and then ask Questions. Asking a question for an answer is not welcome.drfazl
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INSPECT YOURSELF
BEFORE POINTING TOWARDS OTHERSFirst Answer and then ask Questions. Asking a question for an answer is not welcome.
drfazl perhaps you should apply this to yourself first
As far as I see, you haven't answered any of the questions posed by me here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33442#33442
Then, WHO ARE YOU to point at me?I do not know why you are embarrased or avoiding to answer my questions before asking questions if any?
Again, you have not posed any question to me. You posed questions to MARIE, I am not her. So please read your own posts first prior to pointing out at others!
What to say of this ! You are so strongly accusing HIM for your supposition and misunderstanding
Please read and if you don't understand, re-read again to make sure before making false assumptions. I never accused G-O-D of anything. Neither did I accuse you of anything. I wanted to clairfy you belief system as to which cult they come from.
First Answer and then ask Questions. Asking a question for an answer is not welcome.
I don't think I need any advice from someone with such understandings. Besides I don't even know you, this is maybe by 10th or 11th post here and you have never asked me any question other than the one you very rudely posed above. And I don't see who you are to tell me what's welcome and what's not. This is a forum - look up the meaning of forum in a dictionary, the questions posed here are open to all the members, not you alone.
I think it'd be best if I don't further communicate with you because it doesn't seem to me you have the the capability to understand what I am trying to communicate here.
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Dear FK
I understand your feelings very well. It is true that women are not that often mentioned and are spoken to, addressed as men. But in old arabic literature women were never mentioned except of course that she`s the beloved one... but they were never addressed. The Quran mentions them a lot of time ... al Muslimat, al Muminat..... This was new then. Also the Quran mentions problems of women which was new also, who cared then about women?
Maybe this helps a little bit?
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Mustering Public Opinion
Against The Verses ?FK wrote
I can't believe you hold the understanding that men are better than womenIt is not me but Allah's Book says so. And yet you cannot believe. I have given the quotes from the Book, if you are interested in the verses of it. So far you have not cared to submit to the ayats but interested in only chatting outside of the Book of Allah. Your position is to muster public opinion over allah's dictum. Fine! I mistook you that you will discuss quran. Nothing of that sort I find with you. Here is a sample of what you said
FK wrote
To answer your question, though I can't go into God's thinking, this is my assumption from what I've heard/read....You cannot ponder yourself in the Way God has asked you to recite and rehearse, but assume and follow the hearsays. I made a mistake in assuming you will speak of the BOOK. I am sorry.
FK wrote
- The pharoh of Egypt had several wives (some were his own biological daughters) and in his narrow mind women were inferior to men.
The above has nothing to do with Quran. This is Free Minds on Islam / comments on the Quran. Worse you talk about the men written history. It is mistake I took you seriously and started quoting the ayats which you threw behind your back.
FK wrote
However, I've got a question for you drfazl
I am not sure if you have any children. But lets assume you have a son and a daughter. Would you see your daughter being inferior to your son?Did I ever say women are inferior?
Men are a grade above women is what Allah says. It is not me. And I see that is true. Quran is held true over your sentimental falsehoodson and daughter ... son is a grade above daughter
wife and husband ... male is a degree above
mother and father ... father is a position above mother.Will you atleast now ponder over the ayats and comeback to -> Questions/Comments on the Quran, what this section of the forum is intended for ? Instead of non quranic chat FK? Your postings thus far is like asking for votes against the verses of Quran. Enter into discussion of standards!
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33481#33481
Now answer the thread I am leading you to please.. If you do not wish to..I appreciate your position here
FK wrote
I think it'd be best if I don't further communicate with you because it doesn't seem to me you have the the capability to understand what I am trying to communicate here.That is OK with me. It is your right to assume in your humble opinion I have no capability to understand your hearsays. But I have to remind once again this is Question / Comments on Quran forum. I think FK, you have the capability to understand. I apologise to Allah if I had posted anything wrong to whoever it may be of concern.
drfazl
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, atleast to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, insuch a way that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.
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Peace all,
"walilrrijali AAalayhinna darajatun" in 2228 is not the same thing than "warafaAAna (to raise) baAAdahum fawqa (over)baAAdin darajatin" in the following verses.
walilrrijali means the men will have/ have and not the men is.
Let us read 47
- Men get/will have a share of what the parents and near relatives leave behind. Women get/will have a share of what the parents and near relatives leave behind. Women have the right to own property (412). Whether the inheritance is small or large, these shares have been ordained as a duty
Lilrrijali naseebun mimmataraka alwalidani waal-aqraboona walilnnisa-i naseebun mimma taraka alwalidani waal-aqraboonamimma qalla minhu aw kathura naseeban mafroodan
as I already said it, AAalayhinna implies obligations toward the women.
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Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.
Tilka alrrusulu faddalnabaAAdahum AAala baAAdin minhum man kallamaAllahu warafaAAa baAAdahum darajatin waataynaAAeesa ibna maryama albayyinati waayyadnahubiroohi alqudusi walaw shaa Allahu maiqtatala allatheena min baAAdihim min baAAdi ma jaat-humualbayyinatu walakini ikhtalafoo faminhum man amanawaminhum man kafara walaw shaa Allahu maiqtataloo walakinna Allaha yafAAalu mayureedu -
And He is the One who made you inheritors on Earth, and He raised some of you over others in grades, to test you with what He had given you. Your Lord is quick to punishment, and He is Forgiving, Merciful.
Wahuwa allathee jaAAalakum khala-ifaal-ardi warafaAAa baAAdakum fawqa baAAdin darajatin liyabluwakum fee ma atakuminna rabbaka sareeAAu alAAiqabi wa-innahu laghafoorun raheemun -
Is it they who assign your Lord's mercy? We have assigned their shares in this worldly life, and We raised some of them above others in ranks, so that they would take one another in service. The mercy from your Lord is far better than that which they amass.
Ahum yaqsimoona rahmata rabbika nahnuqasamna baynahum maAAeeshatahum fee alhayatialddunya warafaAAna baAAdahum fawqa baAAdin darajatin liyattakhitha baAAduhumbaAAdan sukhriyyan warahmatu rabbika khayrun mimmayajmaAAoona
Those who are not equal
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Not equal are those who stayed behind from the believers; except those disabled; with those who strived in the cause of God with their money and lives. God has preferred those who strive with their money and lives over those who stayed behind by a grade; and to both God has promised goodness; and God has preferred the strivers over those who stay by a great reward.
La yastawee alqaAAidoona minaalmu/mineena ghayru olee alddarari waalmujahidoonafee sabeeli Allahi bi-amwalihim waanfusihim faddalaAllahu almujahideena bi-amwalihimwaanfusihim AAala alqaAAideena darajatan wakullanwaAAada Allahu alhusna wafaddala Allahualmujahideena AAala alqaAAideena ajran AAatheeman -
Say ?I do not say to you that I posses God?s treasures, nor do I know the future, nor do I say to you that I am an Angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me.? Say ?Are the blind and the seer the same?; do you not think??
Qul la aqoolu lakum AAindee khaza-inuAllahi wala aAAlamu alghayba wala aqoolulakum innee malakun in attabiAAu illa ma yoohailayya qul hal yastawee al-aAAma waalbaseeruafala tatafakkaroona -
Is one who was a believer the same as one who was wicked? They are not the same.
Afaman kana mu/minan kaman kanafasiqan la yastawoona -
As for one who is meditating in the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord. Say ?Are those who know equal to those who do not know?? Only those who possess understanding will remember.
Amman huwa qanitun anaaallayli sajidan waqa-iman yahtharu al-akhiratawayarjoo rahmata rabbihi qul hal yastawee allatheenayaAAlamoona waallatheena la yaAAlamoonainnama yatathakkaru oloo al-albabi
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And not equal are the blind and the seer; nor those who believe and do good works, and those who do evil. Little do you remember.
Wama yastawee al-aAAma waalbaseeruwaallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihatiwala almusee-o qaleelan ma tatathakkaroona -
Not equal are the dwellers of the Fire and the dwellers of Paradise; the dwellers of Paradise are the winners.
La yastawee as-habu alnnariwaas-habu aljannati as-habu aljannatihumu alfa-izoona
My conclusion the woman and the man completes themselves, the following verses summarize well the position
- And do not envy what God has favoured some of you over others. For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained. And ask God from His favour, God is knowledgeable over all things.
Wala tatamannaw ma faddalaAllahu bihi baAAdakum AAala baAAdinlilrrijali naseebun mimma iktasaboo walilnnisa-i naseebun mimma iktasabnawais-aloo Allaha min fadlihi inna Allahakana bikulli shay-in AAaleeman
Peace
Marie
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Salam All !
Marie, we are really lucky to have you here...at least I am. Very happy to know that drfazl is not a degree above me as he says, and that my son is not a degree above my daughter, at least not just because they are men... That's only his wishfull thinking.
Elke
Elke
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dear all
if men have a resposibility over women doesn't that mean men are a degree higher? if we are not then why two female witnesses=1 male? marie every ayat has a much deeper meaning than what we see. if quran is just to be followed litterally than why does Allah ask us to ponder the ayats? is quran just a story book? the way marie puts it is like you have to speak arabic to understand the quran while infact there is no language barrier. Allah says so. wisdom comes from Allah not anyone else. peace
shariff D -
Salam Sharif 69, all,
no, you don't need to speak arabic, but you still have to search the truth. Throughout quran specific words are used in specific circumstances - and allah doesn't say that women are not equal to men - that's what Marie's message means.
Now, you're the one who is interpreting that because you have a responsability with regard to someone this someone is not your equal.
I have a responsabilit? to my children - but this certainly doesn't mean that I'm above them. The captain of a ship has responsabilities towards his sailors - which has nothing to do with them being/or not being equal to their captain as human beings.Same for your employer and so on...Men and women are different, their roles in life are different, at least generally throughout the world - that doesn't make them unequal as human beings.
Elke
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Peace Sharrif
dear all
every ayat has a much deeper meaning than what we see. if quran is just to be followed litterally than why does Allah ask us to ponder the ayats? is quran just a story book?Did you ponder that Ayat 2282, it happens to be the longest one in the Quran. Did you read the pre and post conditions? Does it say both women must present or does it say if one errs or is occupied she can call upon the other in her place.
the way marie puts it is like you have to speak arabic to understand the quran while infact there is no language barrier. Allah says so.
Try and answer me without refering to the Arabic.
wisdom comes from Allah not anyone else. peace
What if God is trying to teach you widsom through someone else.
What if learning arabic is part of that process. Just as we have to learn english to communicate on this forum, that we may learn from one another.--
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Respectfully to those involved in this discussion
we seem to be missing the physiological component here. Men are physically stronger than women (across a population average). In an economy where physical strength is significant in your ability to create wealth (ie all economies pre-1820) Men are "a degree higher"
It doesn't make them superior.
re 2282 . This must be understood in the context of what it refers to - ie ECONOMIC TRANSATIONS. I've always seen this as a very simple protection clause which the Creator offers women when they are testifying in legal cases which deal with economic transations. Since they may be financially involved with one of the parties there is the risk pressure could be brought to bear on them to bear false testimony. Since another women would be there to back her up in such instances she is less likely to committ perjury. This verse has nothing to do with men being smarter or more honest or having better memories. It is there to project women who are dependent on the support of a male partner or relative. The context makes it clear imo.
peace
asdfjk
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Peace be upon you all,
This reading may seem geared towards men if we do not understand the male and female principles in life. The pure/chaste mind (nafs) is to be impregnated with the message of the God(being the male seed). That is what the symbolic story of Isa, son of Mariam is about. And that is why none should die without having faith in that process.
Regarding 2 women to one man, I recall someone stating the point that women become pregnant, and this answers why two women for one man.
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Salaam asdfjk, All
we seem to be missing the physiological component here. Men are physically stronger than women (across a population average). In an economy where physical strength is significant in your ability to create wealth (ie all economies pre-1820) Men are "a degree higher"
It doesn't make them superior.
re 2282 . This must be understood in the context of what it refers to - ie ECONOMIC TRANSATIONS. I've always seen this as a very simple protection clause which the Creator offers women when they are testifying in legal cases which deal with economic transations. Since they may be financially involved with one of the parties there is the risk pressure could be brought to bear on them to bear false testimony. Since another women would be there to back her up in such instances she is less likely to committ perjury. This verse has nothing to do with men being smarter or more honest or having better memories. It is there to project women who are dependent on the support of a male partner or relative. The context makes it clear imo.
That is exactly my understanding. A woman might cover the truth out of fear, fear of losing the male and the community support. So having another woman by her side would help her stand her ground and tell the truth.
Taj
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Male Or Female
One Is SuperiorTo All,
Going by the principles, the male and female again there is a difference, that is the reason why we talk of the two different prinicples. "We have placed the one superior in rank over the other" is what Allah's dictum is. Either say male or female is superior - one over the other; but never equate them on the same ranks. Let female be superior to start with so that we can sort it out later.
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Peace all,
In 432, Allah doesn't specify that He favoured the man on the woman or the woman on the man. "The God has favoured some of you over others" doesn't mean a unique direction.
- And do not envy what the God has favoured some of you over others. For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained. And ask God from His favour, God is knowledgeable over all things.
the favors concern blessings, wealth, health, wisdom, knowledge, provision, the children...
The physiological component concerns man and women, the women has her own physical force which is not comparable to the physical force of the man.
The woman and the man have different and supplementary roles at all levels, Praise to the God.
Which of them are superior? It doesn't matter.
The position of the woman evolved and what which is applicable 1400 years ago is not specially valid today.
Peace
Marie -
marie, 004032 004034; 002228; 004011; 002282.
The above are some ayats to say males are a degree above.
We know we shall not belie Allah's challenge that in Quran there is no contradiction you will find between the various verses, however hard you try.
Hence i want to know if you could say crisply say the over all meaning of each ayat, without the meaning of one verse contradicting the other.