men are better than women according to drfazl
-
Salam All !
Marie, we are really lucky to have you here...at least I am. Very happy to know that drfazl is not a degree above me as he says, and that my son is not a degree above my daughter, at least not just because they are men... That's only his wishfull thinking.
Elke
Elke
-
dear all
if men have a resposibility over women doesn't that mean men are a degree higher? if we are not then why two female witnesses=1 male? marie every ayat has a much deeper meaning than what we see. if quran is just to be followed litterally than why does Allah ask us to ponder the ayats? is quran just a story book? the way marie puts it is like you have to speak arabic to understand the quran while infact there is no language barrier. Allah says so. wisdom comes from Allah not anyone else. peace
shariff D -
Salam Sharif 69, all,
no, you don't need to speak arabic, but you still have to search the truth. Throughout quran specific words are used in specific circumstances - and allah doesn't say that women are not equal to men - that's what Marie's message means.
Now, you're the one who is interpreting that because you have a responsability with regard to someone this someone is not your equal.
I have a responsabilit? to my children - but this certainly doesn't mean that I'm above them. The captain of a ship has responsabilities towards his sailors - which has nothing to do with them being/or not being equal to their captain as human beings.Same for your employer and so on...Men and women are different, their roles in life are different, at least generally throughout the world - that doesn't make them unequal as human beings.
Elke
-
Peace Sharrif
dear all
every ayat has a much deeper meaning than what we see. if quran is just to be followed litterally than why does Allah ask us to ponder the ayats? is quran just a story book?Did you ponder that Ayat 2282, it happens to be the longest one in the Quran. Did you read the pre and post conditions? Does it say both women must present or does it say if one errs or is occupied she can call upon the other in her place.
the way marie puts it is like you have to speak arabic to understand the quran while infact there is no language barrier. Allah says so.
Try and answer me without refering to the Arabic.
wisdom comes from Allah not anyone else. peace
What if God is trying to teach you widsom through someone else.
What if learning arabic is part of that process. Just as we have to learn english to communicate on this forum, that we may learn from one another.--
-
Respectfully to those involved in this discussion
we seem to be missing the physiological component here. Men are physically stronger than women (across a population average). In an economy where physical strength is significant in your ability to create wealth (ie all economies pre-1820) Men are "a degree higher"
It doesn't make them superior.
re 2282 . This must be understood in the context of what it refers to - ie ECONOMIC TRANSATIONS. I've always seen this as a very simple protection clause which the Creator offers women when they are testifying in legal cases which deal with economic transations. Since they may be financially involved with one of the parties there is the risk pressure could be brought to bear on them to bear false testimony. Since another women would be there to back her up in such instances she is less likely to committ perjury. This verse has nothing to do with men being smarter or more honest or having better memories. It is there to project women who are dependent on the support of a male partner or relative. The context makes it clear imo.
peace
asdfjk
-
Peace be upon you all,
This reading may seem geared towards men if we do not understand the male and female principles in life. The pure/chaste mind (nafs) is to be impregnated with the message of the God(being the male seed). That is what the symbolic story of Isa, son of Mariam is about. And that is why none should die without having faith in that process.
Regarding 2 women to one man, I recall someone stating the point that women become pregnant, and this answers why two women for one man.
-
Salaam asdfjk, All
we seem to be missing the physiological component here. Men are physically stronger than women (across a population average). In an economy where physical strength is significant in your ability to create wealth (ie all economies pre-1820) Men are "a degree higher"
It doesn't make them superior.
re 2282 . This must be understood in the context of what it refers to - ie ECONOMIC TRANSATIONS. I've always seen this as a very simple protection clause which the Creator offers women when they are testifying in legal cases which deal with economic transations. Since they may be financially involved with one of the parties there is the risk pressure could be brought to bear on them to bear false testimony. Since another women would be there to back her up in such instances she is less likely to committ perjury. This verse has nothing to do with men being smarter or more honest or having better memories. It is there to project women who are dependent on the support of a male partner or relative. The context makes it clear imo.
That is exactly my understanding. A woman might cover the truth out of fear, fear of losing the male and the community support. So having another woman by her side would help her stand her ground and tell the truth.
Taj
-
Male Or Female
One Is SuperiorTo All,
Going by the principles, the male and female again there is a difference, that is the reason why we talk of the two different prinicples. "We have placed the one superior in rank over the other" is what Allah's dictum is. Either say male or female is superior - one over the other; but never equate them on the same ranks. Let female be superior to start with so that we can sort it out later.
-
Peace all,
In 432, Allah doesn't specify that He favoured the man on the woman or the woman on the man. "The God has favoured some of you over others" doesn't mean a unique direction.
- And do not envy what the God has favoured some of you over others. For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained. And ask God from His favour, God is knowledgeable over all things.
the favors concern blessings, wealth, health, wisdom, knowledge, provision, the children...
The physiological component concerns man and women, the women has her own physical force which is not comparable to the physical force of the man.
The woman and the man have different and supplementary roles at all levels, Praise to the God.
Which of them are superior? It doesn't matter.
The position of the woman evolved and what which is applicable 1400 years ago is not specially valid today.
Peace
Marie -
marie, 004032 004034; 002228; 004011; 002282.
The above are some ayats to say males are a degree above.
We know we shall not belie Allah's challenge that in Quran there is no contradiction you will find between the various verses, however hard you try.
Hence i want to know if you could say crisply say the over all meaning of each ayat, without the meaning of one verse contradicting the other. -
Peace,
I am not clear how this logic 'men superior to women' has been built using the Quran?
When God allows the testimony of a woman to override that of a man in 246-9, does that mean that women are superior to men?
There is some sexism going on this thread without it truly being based on the book of God.
-
Peace,
-please, a question related to the last part of 4.34
"if they obey you"
is the quran including obedience (and its corresponding 'ordering') into the husband/wife relationship?
-another question related to the first part
"spend their money"
so, if both contribute working and earning for the family needs, or the wife contributes more, that degree 'over another' desappears, right?
Idolfree, peace,
I don't understand well the application of the male/female principle to the quran addressing men. Could you say in other words, please?
-
Salam All,
well said Layth !
And as for Elena What you say seems logical to me and as situations evole the rules do as well. As said Marie, the womens situation, at least in our "developed" countries, is alhamdullelah, not the same as the one 1400 years ago in Arabia.
And anyway - concerning "obeying" Obey only the righteous orders and they needn't be orders anymore but just the logical thing to do if the couple is "mature" and discusses matters...
Elke
-
Peace Elena, all,
Peace,
-please, a question related to the last part of 4.34
"if they obey you"
is the quran including obedience (and its corresponding 'ordering') into the husband/wife relationship?
"fa-in ataAAnakum / If they pay heed to you" is connected to "waallatee takhafoonanushoozahunna / As for those women from whom you fear a desertion", after this "advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them", if she changes her position concerning the desertion.
If she doesn't change her position, and if you fear a split between them, then send a judge from his family and a judge from hers. (435).-another question related to the first part
"spend their money"
so, if both contribute working and earning for the family needs, or the wife contributes more, that degree 'over another' desappears, right?
Exactly!
This is the case of many families currently
For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained.(432)
- And to each will be degrees according to what they did, and He will recompense them and they will not be wronged.
Hope that helps
Marie
-
Peace be upon you Elena,
Idolfree, peace,
I don't understand well the application of the male/female principle to the quran addressing men. Could you say in other words, please?
I am talking about the positive and negative energies in all things. I will elaborate upon that soon, unless the God wills otherwise.
