men are better than women according to drfazl
-
Mustering Public Opinion
Against The Verses ?FK wrote
I can't believe you hold the understanding that men are better than womenIt is not me but Allah's Book says so. And yet you cannot believe. I have given the quotes from the Book, if you are interested in the verses of it. So far you have not cared to submit to the ayats but interested in only chatting outside of the Book of Allah. Your position is to muster public opinion over allah's dictum. Fine! I mistook you that you will discuss quran. Nothing of that sort I find with you. Here is a sample of what you said
FK wrote
To answer your question, though I can't go into God's thinking, this is my assumption from what I've heard/read....You cannot ponder yourself in the Way God has asked you to recite and rehearse, but assume and follow the hearsays. I made a mistake in assuming you will speak of the BOOK. I am sorry.
FK wrote
- The pharoh of Egypt had several wives (some were his own biological daughters) and in his narrow mind women were inferior to men.
The above has nothing to do with Quran. This is Free Minds on Islam / comments on the Quran. Worse you talk about the men written history. It is mistake I took you seriously and started quoting the ayats which you threw behind your back.
FK wrote
However, I've got a question for you drfazl
I am not sure if you have any children. But lets assume you have a son and a daughter. Would you see your daughter being inferior to your son?Did I ever say women are inferior?
Men are a grade above women is what Allah says. It is not me. And I see that is true. Quran is held true over your sentimental falsehoodson and daughter ... son is a grade above daughter
wife and husband ... male is a degree above
mother and father ... father is a position above mother.Will you atleast now ponder over the ayats and comeback to -> Questions/Comments on the Quran, what this section of the forum is intended for ? Instead of non quranic chat FK? Your postings thus far is like asking for votes against the verses of Quran. Enter into discussion of standards!
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33481#33481
Now answer the thread I am leading you to please.. If you do not wish to..I appreciate your position here
FK wrote
I think it'd be best if I don't further communicate with you because it doesn't seem to me you have the the capability to understand what I am trying to communicate here.That is OK with me. It is your right to assume in your humble opinion I have no capability to understand your hearsays. But I have to remind once again this is Question / Comments on Quran forum. I think FK, you have the capability to understand. I apologise to Allah if I had posted anything wrong to whoever it may be of concern.
drfazl
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, atleast to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, insuch a way that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy.
-
Peace all,
"walilrrijali AAalayhinna darajatun" in 2228 is not the same thing than "warafaAAna (to raise) baAAdahum fawqa (over)baAAdin darajatin" in the following verses.
walilrrijali means the men will have/ have and not the men is.
Let us read 47
- Men get/will have a share of what the parents and near relatives leave behind. Women get/will have a share of what the parents and near relatives leave behind. Women have the right to own property (412). Whether the inheritance is small or large, these shares have been ordained as a duty
Lilrrijali naseebun mimmataraka alwalidani waal-aqraboona walilnnisa-i naseebun mimma taraka alwalidani waal-aqraboonamimma qalla minhu aw kathura naseeban mafroodan
as I already said it, AAalayhinna implies obligations toward the women.
-
Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.
Tilka alrrusulu faddalnabaAAdahum AAala baAAdin minhum man kallamaAllahu warafaAAa baAAdahum darajatin waataynaAAeesa ibna maryama albayyinati waayyadnahubiroohi alqudusi walaw shaa Allahu maiqtatala allatheena min baAAdihim min baAAdi ma jaat-humualbayyinatu walakini ikhtalafoo faminhum man amanawaminhum man kafara walaw shaa Allahu maiqtataloo walakinna Allaha yafAAalu mayureedu -
And He is the One who made you inheritors on Earth, and He raised some of you over others in grades, to test you with what He had given you. Your Lord is quick to punishment, and He is Forgiving, Merciful.
Wahuwa allathee jaAAalakum khala-ifaal-ardi warafaAAa baAAdakum fawqa baAAdin darajatin liyabluwakum fee ma atakuminna rabbaka sareeAAu alAAiqabi wa-innahu laghafoorun raheemun -
Is it they who assign your Lord's mercy? We have assigned their shares in this worldly life, and We raised some of them above others in ranks, so that they would take one another in service. The mercy from your Lord is far better than that which they amass.
Ahum yaqsimoona rahmata rabbika nahnuqasamna baynahum maAAeeshatahum fee alhayatialddunya warafaAAna baAAdahum fawqa baAAdin darajatin liyattakhitha baAAduhumbaAAdan sukhriyyan warahmatu rabbika khayrun mimmayajmaAAoona
Those who are not equal
-
Not equal are those who stayed behind from the believers; except those disabled; with those who strived in the cause of God with their money and lives. God has preferred those who strive with their money and lives over those who stayed behind by a grade; and to both God has promised goodness; and God has preferred the strivers over those who stay by a great reward.
La yastawee alqaAAidoona minaalmu/mineena ghayru olee alddarari waalmujahidoonafee sabeeli Allahi bi-amwalihim waanfusihim faddalaAllahu almujahideena bi-amwalihimwaanfusihim AAala alqaAAideena darajatan wakullanwaAAada Allahu alhusna wafaddala Allahualmujahideena AAala alqaAAideena ajran AAatheeman -
Say ?I do not say to you that I posses God?s treasures, nor do I know the future, nor do I say to you that I am an Angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me.? Say ?Are the blind and the seer the same?; do you not think??
Qul la aqoolu lakum AAindee khaza-inuAllahi wala aAAlamu alghayba wala aqoolulakum innee malakun in attabiAAu illa ma yoohailayya qul hal yastawee al-aAAma waalbaseeruafala tatafakkaroona -
Is one who was a believer the same as one who was wicked? They are not the same.
Afaman kana mu/minan kaman kanafasiqan la yastawoona -
As for one who is meditating in the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord. Say ?Are those who know equal to those who do not know?? Only those who possess understanding will remember.
Amman huwa qanitun anaaallayli sajidan waqa-iman yahtharu al-akhiratawayarjoo rahmata rabbihi qul hal yastawee allatheenayaAAlamoona waallatheena la yaAAlamoonainnama yatathakkaru oloo al-albabi
-
And not equal are the blind and the seer; nor those who believe and do good works, and those who do evil. Little do you remember.
Wama yastawee al-aAAma waalbaseeruwaallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihatiwala almusee-o qaleelan ma tatathakkaroona -
Not equal are the dwellers of the Fire and the dwellers of Paradise; the dwellers of Paradise are the winners.
La yastawee as-habu alnnariwaas-habu aljannati as-habu aljannatihumu alfa-izoona
My conclusion the woman and the man completes themselves, the following verses summarize well the position
- And do not envy what God has favoured some of you over others. For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained. And ask God from His favour, God is knowledgeable over all things.
Wala tatamannaw ma faddalaAllahu bihi baAAdakum AAala baAAdinlilrrijali naseebun mimma iktasaboo walilnnisa-i naseebun mimma iktasabnawais-aloo Allaha min fadlihi inna Allahakana bikulli shay-in AAaleeman
Peace
Marie
-
Salam All !
Marie, we are really lucky to have you here...at least I am. Very happy to know that drfazl is not a degree above me as he says, and that my son is not a degree above my daughter, at least not just because they are men... That's only his wishfull thinking.
Elke
Elke
-
dear all
if men have a resposibility over women doesn't that mean men are a degree higher? if we are not then why two female witnesses=1 male? marie every ayat has a much deeper meaning than what we see. if quran is just to be followed litterally than why does Allah ask us to ponder the ayats? is quran just a story book? the way marie puts it is like you have to speak arabic to understand the quran while infact there is no language barrier. Allah says so. wisdom comes from Allah not anyone else. peace
shariff D -
Salam Sharif 69, all,
no, you don't need to speak arabic, but you still have to search the truth. Throughout quran specific words are used in specific circumstances - and allah doesn't say that women are not equal to men - that's what Marie's message means.
Now, you're the one who is interpreting that because you have a responsability with regard to someone this someone is not your equal.
I have a responsabilit? to my children - but this certainly doesn't mean that I'm above them. The captain of a ship has responsabilities towards his sailors - which has nothing to do with them being/or not being equal to their captain as human beings.Same for your employer and so on...Men and women are different, their roles in life are different, at least generally throughout the world - that doesn't make them unequal as human beings.
Elke
-
Peace Sharrif
dear all
every ayat has a much deeper meaning than what we see. if quran is just to be followed litterally than why does Allah ask us to ponder the ayats? is quran just a story book?Did you ponder that Ayat 2282, it happens to be the longest one in the Quran. Did you read the pre and post conditions? Does it say both women must present or does it say if one errs or is occupied she can call upon the other in her place.
the way marie puts it is like you have to speak arabic to understand the quran while infact there is no language barrier. Allah says so.
Try and answer me without refering to the Arabic.
wisdom comes from Allah not anyone else. peace
What if God is trying to teach you widsom through someone else.
What if learning arabic is part of that process. Just as we have to learn english to communicate on this forum, that we may learn from one another.--
-
Respectfully to those involved in this discussion
we seem to be missing the physiological component here. Men are physically stronger than women (across a population average). In an economy where physical strength is significant in your ability to create wealth (ie all economies pre-1820) Men are "a degree higher"
It doesn't make them superior.
re 2282 . This must be understood in the context of what it refers to - ie ECONOMIC TRANSATIONS. I've always seen this as a very simple protection clause which the Creator offers women when they are testifying in legal cases which deal with economic transations. Since they may be financially involved with one of the parties there is the risk pressure could be brought to bear on them to bear false testimony. Since another women would be there to back her up in such instances she is less likely to committ perjury. This verse has nothing to do with men being smarter or more honest or having better memories. It is there to project women who are dependent on the support of a male partner or relative. The context makes it clear imo.
peace
asdfjk
-
Peace be upon you all,
This reading may seem geared towards men if we do not understand the male and female principles in life. The pure/chaste mind (nafs) is to be impregnated with the message of the God(being the male seed). That is what the symbolic story of Isa, son of Mariam is about. And that is why none should die without having faith in that process.
Regarding 2 women to one man, I recall someone stating the point that women become pregnant, and this answers why two women for one man.
-
Salaam asdfjk, All
we seem to be missing the physiological component here. Men are physically stronger than women (across a population average). In an economy where physical strength is significant in your ability to create wealth (ie all economies pre-1820) Men are "a degree higher"
It doesn't make them superior.
re 2282 . This must be understood in the context of what it refers to - ie ECONOMIC TRANSATIONS. I've always seen this as a very simple protection clause which the Creator offers women when they are testifying in legal cases which deal with economic transations. Since they may be financially involved with one of the parties there is the risk pressure could be brought to bear on them to bear false testimony. Since another women would be there to back her up in such instances she is less likely to committ perjury. This verse has nothing to do with men being smarter or more honest or having better memories. It is there to project women who are dependent on the support of a male partner or relative. The context makes it clear imo.
That is exactly my understanding. A woman might cover the truth out of fear, fear of losing the male and the community support. So having another woman by her side would help her stand her ground and tell the truth.
Taj
-
Male Or Female
One Is SuperiorTo All,
Going by the principles, the male and female again there is a difference, that is the reason why we talk of the two different prinicples. "We have placed the one superior in rank over the other" is what Allah's dictum is. Either say male or female is superior - one over the other; but never equate them on the same ranks. Let female be superior to start with so that we can sort it out later.
-
Peace all,
In 432, Allah doesn't specify that He favoured the man on the woman or the woman on the man. "The God has favoured some of you over others" doesn't mean a unique direction.
- And do not envy what the God has favoured some of you over others. For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained. And ask God from His favour, God is knowledgeable over all things.
the favors concern blessings, wealth, health, wisdom, knowledge, provision, the children...
The physiological component concerns man and women, the women has her own physical force which is not comparable to the physical force of the man.
The woman and the man have different and supplementary roles at all levels, Praise to the God.
Which of them are superior? It doesn't matter.
The position of the woman evolved and what which is applicable 1400 years ago is not specially valid today.
Peace
Marie -
marie, 004032 004034; 002228; 004011; 002282.
The above are some ayats to say males are a degree above.
We know we shall not belie Allah's challenge that in Quran there is no contradiction you will find between the various verses, however hard you try.
Hence i want to know if you could say crisply say the over all meaning of each ayat, without the meaning of one verse contradicting the other. -
Peace,
I am not clear how this logic 'men superior to women' has been built using the Quran?
When God allows the testimony of a woman to override that of a man in 246-9, does that mean that women are superior to men?
There is some sexism going on this thread without it truly being based on the book of God.
-
Peace,
-please, a question related to the last part of 4.34
"if they obey you"
is the quran including obedience (and its corresponding 'ordering') into the husband/wife relationship?
-another question related to the first part
"spend their money"
so, if both contribute working and earning for the family needs, or the wife contributes more, that degree 'over another' desappears, right?
Idolfree, peace,
I don't understand well the application of the male/female principle to the quran addressing men. Could you say in other words, please?
-
Salam All,
well said Layth !
And as for Elena What you say seems logical to me and as situations evole the rules do as well. As said Marie, the womens situation, at least in our "developed" countries, is alhamdullelah, not the same as the one 1400 years ago in Arabia.
And anyway - concerning "obeying" Obey only the righteous orders and they needn't be orders anymore but just the logical thing to do if the couple is "mature" and discusses matters...
Elke
-
Peace Elena, all,
Peace,
-please, a question related to the last part of 4.34
"if they obey you"
is the quran including obedience (and its corresponding 'ordering') into the husband/wife relationship?
"fa-in ataAAnakum / If they pay heed to you" is connected to "waallatee takhafoonanushoozahunna / As for those women from whom you fear a desertion", after this "advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them", if she changes her position concerning the desertion.
If she doesn't change her position, and if you fear a split between them, then send a judge from his family and a judge from hers. (435).-another question related to the first part
"spend their money"
so, if both contribute working and earning for the family needs, or the wife contributes more, that degree 'over another' desappears, right?
Exactly!
This is the case of many families currently
For the men is a portion of what they gained, and for the women is a portion of what they gained.(432)
- And to each will be degrees according to what they did, and He will recompense them and they will not be wronged.
Hope that helps
Marie
