Facts on Circumcision
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peace,
So the evidence you have for 3030 supporting your view is you think it implies a greater context? Thinking deeper, let's say that it does as you suggest, mean "there is no changing in God's creation" in the greater context. What do you make of genetically modified foods for example? Clearly this is changing in God's creation, thus is 3030 disproved according to you?The fact that we have genetically modified foods is even more proof of God's perfect creation. Say for example that we put genetically modified plants and animals into the wild they would have an immense advantage over their predators/prey. This would upset the natural order and balance of nature, one species would have an unfair advantage over the others leading to a breakdown of the food chain.
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Peace everyone,
This thread is titled "facts" but many here are just conjecturing and basing their opinions on assumptions rather than facts, including twisting God's words as pointed out by Wakas.
Examination of scientific evidence concerning benefits versus risks and harmful effects of circumcision indicates no overall benefit of circumcision. Please read the following
http//www.infocirc.org/facts.htm
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This thread is titled "facts" but many here are just conjecturing and basing their opinions on assumptions rather than facts
Is God words not considered facts?
including twisting God's words .
I would you rather use the word misunderstanding or misinterpreting, than the the word twisting, it is a big accusation.
Peace.
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Peace,
Ahsana = perfect is a misunderstanding/misinterpreting and not twisting?
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Peace,
Ahsana = perfect is a misunderstanding/misinterpreting and not twisting?
Peace
I guess the idea of this forum is to discuss and share points of view.
the memmbers post what he/she thinks it is the best he/she can reach so far, any new understanding would be welcomed without throwing accusation. -
Peace all
Please be aware that God is testing us; He is testing " if we truly believe in the Torah and Injeel as we do with Quran". As you all know, the only religion that is accepted by God is the Humans' Submission to God's Books (all of them).384 Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.?
384385 And whoever follows other than submission as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
385Circumcision of male is in the Bible and the Old Testament; therefore, if you believe in them as you believe in Quran, ones should not disbelieve in the circumcision of male.
I will make you exceedingly fertile, and make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. . . . I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God. . . . Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep every male among you shall be circumcised. (Genesis 176,8,10)
Now, should I reject the above verse from the Torah, and therefore reject the Quranic verse 3-84.
What do you think?
Peace -
Salaam.
In all of Africa,every man is circumcised,no matter which religion he has,or not have.The people into traditional belifs also.In Africa,you are not a man,if you are not circumzised.
It is a custom from the ancient Egyptian god Horus,that say that all humans are born androgyn,and that the female part of the boy(the foreskin)should be taken away.And the masculine from girls(the qlitoris cover) when they were around six seven years old.
The Jews took it with them,when they left Egypt.
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Peace BelH )
it is obvious that AceOfHearts had takled a sensetive issue reagrding it being a worldwide and deeply rooted act.
Sure we believe in the old scriptures , but as far as i can recall there is no verse in the quran that order us to follow them, God order us to follow the quran, which is as we all know is complete, enough, fully detailed, and god had given in it all the examples that we need, also the quran confirm the old scriptures, there is no point in citing the verses that talk about that cos i know they are well known to all. Another point, the old scriptures has been some what altered by scholars, but the quran is preserved and kept by god, i didnt read the bible, but i heard from some christians that there is a clear verse in it that prohibit divorce for any reason but adultery, is this right?? do i have to believe in this ?
Pecae
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Peace BelH
it is obvious that AceOfHearts had takled a sensetive issue reagrding it being a worldwide and deeply rooted act.
Sure we believe in the old scriptures , but as far as i can recall there is no verse in the quran that order us to follow them, God order us to follow the quran, which is as we all know is complete, enough, fully detailed, and god had given in it all the examples that we need, also the quran confirm the old scriptures, there is no point in citing the verses that talk about that cos i know they are well known to all. Another point, the old scriptures has been some what altered by scholars, but the quran is preserved and kept by god, i didnt read the bible, but i heard from some christians that there is a clear verse in it that prohibit divorce for any reason but adultery, is this right?? do i have to believe in this ?
Pecae
Peace all
Hope, I used to believe in a way as you said above; but I came to believe that God wants us to not ignore the other books; moreover, in many verses God describes the believers as the ones who believe in the three books; please note that God used one word, Believe, to describe the attitude of the believers toward the three books; now, if the attitude is one, to believe, do we treat the Bible and the Old Testament as we treat the Quran, when believing? The answer is NO; as you said, you even did not read them. Is this is an equal attitude?As far as Circumcision for male, I'm not 100% sure that God prescribed it in the Old Testament; the verse that I quoted from Torah (Genesis 176,8,10) is a translation of the Original Torah, and as we all know, translation can be wrong. Maybe the Hebrow word that is being used in the Original Torah does not Mean " cut off the male's private part foreskin".
Hope, let me share with you and others a verse that I came across, in which the Arabic word of Circumcision, is used in Quran
2187
Now, every one have translated this word to different meanings, such as "betray your souls" in Free-Minds, but non have translate it to "Circumcise yourself", and if they do, the verse would be as follow
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to Circumcise yourself so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
Thus, it would mean that Circumcision is prohibited. But as you know, The Arabic word can mean different meanings.; and therefore, further study is needed.
Peace
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Peace all
1710 , , , , -.
This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee every male among you shall be circumcised.We need an expert advice from someone who knows the original language of the Torah to translate Genesis 1710.
And when doing so, please let us know if the words that is translated to "every male among you shall be circumcised" can mean "every male among you shall be purified"; hence, God ordered the prophet to Purify himself by saying744 And purify your garments.
744The only Hebrew and Aramaic expert I know is Arnab (and Araf); I hope they can help us.
Peace all
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Hope, let me share with you and others a verse that I came across, in which the Arabic word of Circumcision, is used in Quran
Peace
This is another verse that might help
4107 And do not argue on behalf of those who betray themselves. God does not like those who are betrayers, sinners.
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So, do you think, as I do, that yaktanon "" means circumcise and not betray?
I dont get your point well. i dont understand well what the word means, but i think it does not mean the act of circumcision, by any mean it sounds from the above 2 mentioned verses that is something that god dont approve or encourage.
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Here are the verses from the Torah about the Circumcision
1710 This is My covenant between Me, and between you and your offspring that you must keep You must circumcise every male.
Zot beriti asher tishmeru beyni uveyneychem uveyn zar'acha acharecha himol lachem kol-zachar.
1711 You shall be circumcised through the flesh of your foreskin. This shall be the mark of the covenant between Me and you.
Unemaltem et besar orlatchem vehayah le'ot berit beyni uveyneychem.1712 'Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old. those born in your house, as well as bought with cash from an outsider, who is not your descendant.
Uven-shmonat yamim yimol lachem kol-zachar ledoroteychem yelid bayit umiknat-kesef mikol ben-nechar asher lo mizar'acha hu.
1713 both houseborn and purchased with your money must be circumcised. This shall be My covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant.Himol yimol yelid beytcha umiknat kaspecha vehayetah vriti bivesarchem liverit olam.
1714 The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.'
Ve'arel zachar asher lo-yimol et-besar orlato venichretah hanefesh hahi me'ameyha et-beriti hefar.
Now, did God mention any thing about the Male private Part in the above Torah verses or they assume that?
As we know in Quran, God mention it
3335 Surely, the submitting men, and the submitting women, the believing men, and the believing women, the dutiful men, and the dutiful women, the truthful men, and the truthful women, the patient men, and the patient women, the humble men, and the humble women, the charitable men, and the charitable women, the fasting men, and the fasting women, the men who keep covered their private parts, and the women who similarly keep covered, and the men who commemorate God frequently, and the commemorating women; God has prepared for them a forgiveness and a great recompense.
3335
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I dont get your point well. i dont understand well what the word means, but i think it does not mean the act of circumcision, by any mean it sounds from the above 2 mentioned verses that is something that god dont approve or encourage.
The arabic word means Circumcise in arabic. Please search in the following arabic dictionary
http//www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D8%AE%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%86
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Peace,
Ahsana = perfect is a misunderstanding/misinterpreting and not twisting?
Peace. Im not twisting it, not deliberately anyway IF I am. Let me explain.
'Ahsana' extends to the highest meaning of the original word when connected with the object, unless we deliberately want to compare two things with the word.
for instance Big > bigger/biggest (depends whether you want to compare something or just describe the object at the highest meaning of the word)
This car is bigger than that one (comparing)
biggest car
like was
God is Biggest (Greatest)
If we use
and say
best car (like 'biggest car' and 'God is greatest' earlier; highest form of hasan)
corresponds correctly to 'the one who perfected everything He created'. Saying 'the one who made most good everything' instead is just playing with words and I dont think its a good translation.
peace.
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Peace Belal,
384 Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.?
384Circumcision of male is in the Bible and the Old Testament; therefore, if you believe in them as you believe in Quran, ones should not disbelieve in the circumcision of male.
I will make you exceedingly fertile, and make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. . . . I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God. . . . Such shall be the covenant between Me and you and your offspring to follow which you shall keep every male among you shall be circumcised. (Genesis 176,8,10)
Now, should I reject the above verse from the Torah, and therefore reject the Quranic verse 3-84.
Did the god say that the Torah talked about in the great reading is the Old Testament? This is a baseless assumption.
Peace,
Ayman
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3335 Surely, the submitting men, and the submitting women, the believing men, and the believing women, the dutiful men, and the dutiful women, the truthful men, and the truthful women, the patient men, and the patient women, the humble men, and the humble women, the charitable men, and the charitable women, the fasting men, and the fasting women, the men who keep covered their private parts, and the women who similarly keep covered, and the men who commemorate God frequently, and the commemorating women; God has prepared for them a forgiveness and a great recompense.
3335
i think means those who keep ( rather than cover) their private parts from fornication and keep them to their husbands/wives or what thier right hands posses according to this verse
235
The arabic word means Circumcise in arabic.
Still it doesnt fit with the context , and as i mentioned it doesnt seems to be approved or encouraged by god.
