Wife Beating is a Therapy

Wakas

peace all,

Background reading from www.quranx.com

Asad 273 We said "Apply this to some of those in this way God saves lives from death and shows you His will, so that you might use your reason.

Muhammad Asad - End Note 57 (273)
The phrase idribuhu bi-ba'diha can be literally translated as "strike him with something of her " -and this possibility has given rise to the fanciful assertion by many commentators that the children of Israel were commanded to strike the corpse of the murdered man with some of the flesh of the sacrificed cow, whereupon he was miraculously restored to life and pointed out his murderer! Neither the Qur'an, nor any saying of the Prophet, nor even the Bible offers the slightest warrant for this highly imaginative explanation, which must, therefore, be rejected-quite apart from the fact that the pronoun hu in idribuhu has a masculine gender, while the noun nafs (here translated as "human being&quot is feminine in gender from which it follows that the imperative idribuhu cannot possibly refer to nafs. On the other hand, the verb daraba (lit., "he struck&quot is very often used in a figurative or metonymic sense, as, for instance, in the expression daraba fi 'l-ard ("he journeyed on earth&quot, or daraba 'sh-shay' bi'sh-shay' ("he mixed one thing with another thing&quot, or daraba mathal ("he coined a similitude" or "propounded a parable" or "gave an illustration&quot, or ala darb wahid ("similarly applied" or "in the same manner&quot, or duribat alayhim adh-dhillah ("humiliation was imposed on them" or "applied to them&quot, and so forth. Taking all this into account, I am of the opinion that the imperative idribuhu occurring in the above Qur'anic passage must be translated as "apply it" or "this" (referring, in this context, to the principle of communal responsibility). As for the feminine pronoun ha in ba'diha ("some of it&quot, it must necessarily relate to the nearest preceding feminine noun-that is, to the nafs that has been murdered, or the act of murder itself about which (fiha) the community disagreed. Thus, the phrase idribuhu bi-ba'diha may be suitably rendered as "apply this to some of those " for it is obvious that the principle of communal responsibility for murder by a person or persons unknown can be applied only to some and not to all such cases.

Muhammad Asad - End Note 58 (273)
Lit., "God gives life to the dead and shows you His messages" (i.e., He shows His will by means of such messages or ordinances). The figurative expression "He gives life to the dead" denotes the saving of lives, and is analogous to that in 532 . In this context it refers to the prevention of bloodshed and the killing of innocent persons (Manar I, 351), be it through individual acts of revenge, or in result of an erroneous judicial process based on no more than vague suspicion and possibly misleading circumstantial evidence.

QXP 273 We said, Apply the law to such cases of unsolved murder. This is how God gives life to the dead. And He expounds His messages for you to use your common sense.

Shabbir Ahmed - End Note 56 (273)
There is life for you in the law of Just Recompense. A law that deters murder and, thus, saves lives, in fact, gives you life 2179. The Mosaic law, according to the Bible, ordains the sacrifice of a cow in cases of unsolved murder. The elders of the town wash their hands and say Our hands have not shed this blood, nor have our eyes seen it. The community is then absolved of the collective responsibility (Deuteronomy 211-9). In this particular instance the mystery was solved and the murderer was identified

Scheherezade

Peace Salim,

If peace means injusice, so Islam is against peace. Only religions without principle will sell justice for peace. Beating of the wives is only a punishment for disobedience and rebellion, nothing more nothing less. And anyone who will beat his wife out of this context and without performing the two procedures before this, then he has wronged himself and must repent.

Peace,

Rami

There is nothing there about beating anyone. It's all in the minds of the men who interpreted and translated this verse. When one reads the verse following it, it becomes apparent that the man and woman are being told to temporarily separate from each other. This time alone would give them an opportunity to reflect on their actions and decide whether it is best to stay together or permanently separate. Beatings, no matter how ?light,? serve no purpose other than to make the wife hate the husband.

Scheherezade

I have read the Torah and Bible and now am in the process of reading the Quran. To believe in their truth, one must believe in all that is written in them. So far I am not convinced that any of them come from God since they all discriminate against women and place women in a subordinate role. I can?t possibly believe in something that discriminates against me or says that I should be beaten if I don?t ?obey? another human being. This places the wife under the authority of her husband. Critics of Islam and of this particular verse claim that this translation places the man as master and woman as slave. I was surprised to see it in the Quran since quite a few times I have heard Muslim men talk about how Islam promotes equality between men and women.

My sister says this as well, claiming that some verses about women are incorrectly translated and so-called scholars who don?t like women much refuse to let go of old interpretations even when the real meaning is crystal clear.

So now I ask you ladies and gentlemen, if they are incorrectly translated why do they still remain unchanged? She reads this forum and told me that many of you also claim that the translation of 434 is not entirely correct. The Quran on three different websites had the traditional translation. I went to the library and checked that verse in the two books I found, same translation. It is this particular verse that the critics of Islam point to here in the US, noting that how can this be a ?religion of peace? when it encourages domestic violence? It doesn?t matter if it?s as a last resort or if it?s ?light,? it?s still violence and beating someone is certainly not a peaceful way to solve a problem.

Scheherezade

Wakas, I'm not sure if you realize this but the link in your signature to StudyQuran.co.uk contains the traditional translation of Surah 4, Verse 34 which states husbands have the right to beat their wives (if they are disobedient). Do you agree with this translation?

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

I don?t see how this verse has anything to do with ?refusing to share their beds? or ?beating them.? It doesn?t make any sense. As I mentioned above, when one reads the verse following it, it becomes clear that the man and woman are being told to temporarily separate from each other so that they may reflect on their actions and decide whether it is best to stay together or permanently separate.

In my opinion, the entire verse is badly translated and in desperate need of a rewrite.

Wakas

peace Scheherezade,

StudyQuran is a resource site, and contains about 30 different English translations, some of which translate it as "beat" and some which do not. No translation represents StudyQuran.

Do you agree with this translation?

No. If all goes to plan, this issue will be better clarified in another project currently being worked on.

jonny_k

Peace "farida",

Peace Jonny
No I am not insane, I want men to control themselves as I believe the surah in question is actully asking men to take steps to curb their anger. No matter what brother Edip says the majority of cowardly people will always believe that they have been given license to hit woman. They need to understand that this ayah is reminding men who are in rage and are about to hit woman to first go through two vital steps which would involve time and effort. This would cool things down and the final stage of lifting hand to strike will never arrive.

JK- If itll never arrive then WHY WLD GOD EVEN MENTION IT? Thts the qs. Why would GOD even so much as mention tht as a final stage men cld beat their wives? Im sorry but this doesnt make any sense at all. The only logical solution is tht the term's falsely translated which bro Edip has shown that it is. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "rami",

Peace Jonny_K,

It seem you don't understand the difference between aggression and punishment. The verse doesn't say go and hit your wife because you can . It is a punishment for the woman for her "nushuz" IF she didn't take heed for the first 2 actions. But why is a wife required to obey her husband you ask?! Because he paid her to pass his seed!! Did you know that marriage we know today is just a bogus fairytale from outer space. The man actually 'rents' the woman to pass his seed. This is called 'agr' or wage. You could aslo rent a woman to breastfeed your child. The only difference between prostitution and marriage is the waiting period the woman should wait untill she can marry another man so the seeds dont get intermixed which could be the real definition of Zina. Thats why God says that Zina is a bad path because it creates trouble later on.

Peace,

Rami

JK- Rami to tell you honestly, WHT UVE WRITTEN ABOVE MAKES ME SICK TO THE STOMACHE and i wont even border to reply to such a filthy interpretation of the Quran. You probably need to let go off much more of hadith crap. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "elke",

Yes Johnny, you should really get the difference between aggression and punishment as well as prostitution and marriage !
When a man hits a woman that is not his wife its aggression, if he hits the woman paid for receiving his seed (in this case wife not prostitute, please note the difference!) it can only be punishment...
Funny thing is the prostitute also receives his seed but is paid only for his satisfaction
Did you get the difference ? whatever

peace still...lk

JK- Ich weiss nicht was mit dem typen los ist. Vielleicht ist da noch ne menge von sunnitisch/shiitischen interpretationen des Koran's in seimem Kopf h?ngen geblieben. Dennoch ist es eine schande sowas noch von Nur Koran Muslimen zu h?ren. GOD Bless!

Rami

Peace "rami",

JK- Rami to tell you honestly, WHT UVE WRITTEN ABOVE MAKES ME SICK TO THE STOMACHE and i wont even border to reply to such a filthy interpretation of the Quran. You probably need to let go off much more of hadith crap. GOD Bless!

rotfl Actually I got rid of the hadith completely. Sunnis hide this. Zina is only when you have intercourse with a married women. Thats why nushuuz of a married woman is dangerous and should be dealt with. And yes you pay the woman a wage and you cover all her expenses. If you want to separate, you go through the countdown to clear her womb from your seed. Pretty disgusting language but isn't this the truth??

Blessings,

Rami

jonny_k

Peace "rami",

rotfl Actually I got rid of the hadith completely. Sunnis hide this. Zina is only when you have intercourse with a married women. Thats why nushuuz of a married woman is dangerous and should be dealt with.

JK- Zina can also be interreted to mean when anyone engages in sexual relations with the opposite sex WITHOUT A LEGAL CONTRACT OR WITHOUT A MUTUAL AGREEMENT OF RESPONSIBILITY IMPLORING THE NAME OF GOD OR A MAN HAVING INTERCOURSE AFTER HAVING MARRIED FOUR WOMEN ALREADY. The definition is not so solid. But lets take urs. Zina would also include a married woman having intercourse with another man or as you said me or any other man having intercourse with a married woman EXCEPT MA MALAKAT AIMAANUKUM which you left out. RK translates this very well
Also prohibited(in marriage) are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving/rejecting/vile husbands who are at war with you(illa ma malakat aimaanukum). ...
What the phrase cld also imply is those women who come under our protection i.e. the husband has beaten her and four indepdent lines of inquiry have proven tht the husband is a maniac so theres no harm if she escapes and goes along with her new caring man. Shes now his "ma malakat aimaanukum".

And yes you pay the woman a wage and you cover all her expenses. If you want to separate, you go through the countdown to clear her womb from your seed. Pretty disgusting language but isn't this the truth??

Blessings,

Rami

JK- We are to pay for women expenses because women have to go through much pain and suffering during child birth and also the periods of women are not always easy. So tht balances it out. WE BY NO MEANS HAVE A RIGHT TO CONTROL WOMEN IN ANY WAY just because we pay her which as i said has already been balanced out. Men like you want more and more from a woman in return for some support where most women take good care of themselves anyways. Ridiculous. As for men going through the countdown of clearing her womb from their seed thts 1) a bad way to put it 2) IMO isnt the only reason for the waiting period. The waiting period could also be there because of psychological reasons and women shld have more time to stabilize before they get into a new relationship. Then yes one reaosn could be to make sure whether shes pregnant or not but today we have pregnancy tests which can tell this much earlier than three months/periods so are you saying GOD didnt know this? There must be more reasons for this. Another hypothesis i have is tht maybe it is harmful if two or more types of semen mix inside a woman's body within a short period of time i.e. withput being seprated by three periods/months but tht is just a hypothesis which needs to be proven. Wht is clear is tht the often quoted reason, and indeed this is the sunni/shia reason, cannot be the only one if the Quran's to be universal. GOD Bless!

herbman

Hi all, Peace,

I don't know if there is any update about this, please give feed back if there was any news.

I have found in Lane's the following translation for DARABA page 65 first column near the bottom
DARABA dahru baynana
which means "Fortune or time, separated us"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000065.pdf

So here DARABA means to separate BUT someone argued to me that here DARABA use a particule BAYNA while in 434 there is no, and therefore DARBA FI, DARABA 3LA, DARABA bi etc has diffrents meanings depending wich particule you put with it like in english Go through, up, down etc

1- So my question here is BAYNA really a particule????
2- Is there any exemple of DARABA meaning to separate, or turn away etc without any particule?

Please help.

Alen

Say what? ;D
http//www.owow.com/RingsideWith/Chyna/Index-1.gif
The woman has every right to defend herself from an abusive insecure malignant narcissist husband use poison, push him down the stairs, stab him in his sleep, or better yet divorce and run off with a real man.

Peace,
Respectfully.

I disagree. men and women are equal but no man and no woman should return to the hostility and violence that we are trying to avoid and run away from.

If the husband is beating his wife and treating her like piece of you-know-what, then, she should simply go away. I say to all women out there if he is hiting you, hit him back, if he punches you, punch him back just don't continue living in such a horibble enviroment.

Divorce him.
Find a real man, yes.
Chyna is really big woman.
But have you seen Angela Bassett? She's one of the few actresses who has the biggest shoulders.

http//3.bp.blogspot.com/_6yatW1i3LVw/SU7e79pzZQI/AAAAAAAAA30/wpHQUOb7R2M/s400/aaaaaaaaaaaaaangela.jpg

Peace.

herbman

just repost to not be lost

Hi all, Peace,

I don't know if there is any update about this, please give feed back if there was any news.

I have found in Lane's the following translation for DARABA page 65 first column near the bottom
DARABA dahru baynana
which means "Fortune or time, separated us"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000065.pdf

So here DARABA means to separate BUT someone argued to me that here DARABA use a particule BAYNA while in 434 there is no, and therefore DARBA FI, DARABA 3LA, DARABA bi etc has diffrents meanings depending wich particule you put with it like in english Go through, up, down etc

1- So my question here is BAYNA really a particule?Huh?
2- Is there any exemple of DARABA meaning to separate, or turn away etc without any particule?

Please help.

herbman

Please help, I am waiting forward for your answers.

Elke

salam herbman,

meanings of daraba have been discussed long time ago please use search function

herbman

Thank you Sister, I know and I looked search enginhe before posting, there were 2 thread about it one was let say out of date without answering the question , and the other one is this one and as you can see I am not satisfy of the answer )

Peace

Q_student

Thank you Sister, I know and I looked search enginhe before posting, there were 2 thread about it one was let say out of date without answering the question , and the other one is this one and as you can see I am not satisfy of the answer

Peace

Dear Herbman
Let me say that your observation is absolutely correct.
Meanings attached to the verbs are two types
Only verbs
Verbs + Particles = idioms

Only verbs use and idiomatic use are usually different e.g in English
Break
Break into
Break out
Break down
All of the above have different meanings
The same case is in Arabic.
= To repent to Allah
= To accept repentance

The only phrase of verb "dharaba" which carries the meaning of "separation" is

But in the Quran it is not used in the aya under considration.

Secondly just before this phrase of "wadhriboohunna" we see " wahjaroohunna fil mazji3i" ie. Separate from them in their bedrooms. So repetition of "separation " does not make any sense.
Let us suppose someone says that was bed room separation but this is more severe type of separation . Then it is what ?
1oes it mean that the woman should be expelled from the house ,where will she go then ? on the roads ?
2oes it mean that the man should leave the house ,then for what ? What is his fault ? Where will he go ?
3If someone say that it means permanent separation ,for that Quran has very clearly used the words of "talaaq". Moreover in the next verse there is mentioning of attempt of reconcialtion which is not possible of divorce has occured.
So meaning of "Separation " does not fit here.
Just a thought.
Regards

herbman

Thank You Q_Student,

Let me just quote some points here

"The only phrase of verb "dharaba" which carries the meaning of "separation" is
= "

I just posted this DARABA BAYNA
DARABA dahru baynana
which means "Fortune or time, separated us"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000065.pdf

So DARABA 3AN is not the only one see link

My question was, is BAYNA a particule???

In any case I agree in the following verse DARABA can only be SEPARATE, because How can you beat (punish) your wife for just a suspition without her having doing anything, remember the verse start "if you fear...." that means the spouse hasn't done anything wrong yet!!! Int'it?
And in Quran you cannot punish anyone only on suspition.

Best regards

Q_student

Thank You Q_Student,

Let me just quote some points here

"The only phrase of verb "dharaba" which carries the meaning of "separation" is
= "

I just posted this DARABA BAYNA
DARABA dahru baynana
which means "Fortune or time, separated us"
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000065.pdf

So DARABA 3AN is not the only one see link

My question was, is BAYNA a particule???

In any case I agree in the following verse DARABA can only be SEPARATE, because How can you beat (punish) your wife for just a suspition without her having doing anything, remember the verse start "if you fear...." that means the spouse hasn't done anything wrong yet!!! Int'it?
And in Quran you cannot punish anyone only on suspition.

Best regards

Dear Herbman
This is the problem
You will see some other uses of "Dharaba"
like
= the bird went in search of food --- 1
=Stallion leaped over the she camel ----2
= The fortune separated them ---3

In Sentence No the subject is "bird" ,in 2 it is "stallion" in three it is "fortune"(time).
Since these usages are such you cannot replace these subjects by human beings unless the Arabs have used it.
If there is some evidence for this use in Arabic literature that these meanings are used with human being as a subject, No problem.
If you have some such example ,please do quote ,it will be appreciated ,because I am myself in search of such an example.
Regards

Samia

Please help, I am waiting forward for your answers.

Please have a look at my response on this thread where daraba is used in the quraan (435) meaning (keep away) and the object is direct/no preposition

(Taken from Wakas link)

The object here is the "dhikr " . Rephrasing "afa nadhribul thikra 3ankum " Shlall we turn away the dhikr from you. The preposition is not for the thikr (which is turned away) but for "you ". Clearly dharaba here means turn away nadhribul thikra turn the dhikr away; 3ankum from you

( I did not respond to the original message then because at the time I was in Sudan without internet connection)
Thanks Wakas for bringing up this link.