Re: Do Jinn Exist as Seperate Beings?
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I think before we try to decide who is made up of what, we must first realize that we are not very knowledgable about the universe around us...
Let's have our starting point with Jinns/Shayaateen
What I personally think is that it is not important who the jinn or shaitaan are, but rather what effect we feel - by any standard. What is mentioned in the Quran as Jinn or Shaitan manifests itself in our 3-dimensional universe as our selfish desire. Beyond that, we do not see any evidence of a forced takeover of a jinn/shaitan over our mind unless we let it (signifying that we give in to our selfish desires)... Dr. Shabbir Ahmed (ourbeacom.com) interprets Shaitaan as our selfish desire made up of fiery disposition, and Bro Ayman interprets it as our fantasies.
Now here is another theoretical interpretation based on String Theory as well as Quantum Field nature of the human brain.
First off, according M-Theory which is one of the advanced string theories, the universe is made up of 11 dimensions. We occupy the lower three dimensions. We can only access higher dimensions if we become out of phase from our own set of 3-dimensions (keeping the time dimension constant). If we look at it at the quantum level, we would observe the basic three dimensions appear natural, and higher dimensions as wrapped around in various phase patterns. So, if we were to phase out, we would not only be invisible, but would also be rendered us immaterial to our natural surroundings at the macro level. Kind of like a ghost or jinn... It may be possible however to influence such surroundings at the quatum level.
Secondly, the human brain is now theorized to work at the quantum level, and is theorized to work like a quantom computer. This is what enables us to experience consiousness, dreams etc.
This is a long stretch, but I was merely trying to state that there could be beings living outside our realm of 3-dimensions, perhaps even in the same time in a hyperspace-like environmet. It is possible that such beings would communicate with us via manipulating the quantum states of our brain to affect our consious and sub-consious.
Same could be said for Angels etc... It could even be considered as the tool for revelation to prophets.
But again, these would be theories without proof so far... the important thing to note is to understand the nature of the manifestation which would enable us to be aware of our selfish desires and fiery disposition. We can use our intellect to make the correct decision regarding any matter. That seems to be in line with what Islam and Iman is in the first place.
We can theorize that Jinns and angles are physical beings, or we can theorize that they are merely our selfish/firey desire (which is part of our subconsious) and laws of nature respectively. For us to prove it, we need to first be in a position to prove, which can only be possible through scientific, intellectual, physical as well as spiritual advancement.
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Peace,
Here is my part
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0
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Arnold, I agree with you a whopping 99.999999% ... but I do have a question for you. How do you recognize God? By seeing Him or His manifestation in the Universe (including His bayaan)? Likewise, I must myself be careful not to mis-adhere to something I have no knowledge of or what I cannot comprehend.
"And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for." 1736
If you remember my understanding on Al-Rahman sign#14 & 15
Arnold, this is indeed thought provoking! Thankyou so much for sharing.
Here is an augment. For many years I used to wonder about one of the verses of Surat-ur-Rahmaan. And finally it makes sense to me "We fashioned the Ins (what is visible) from sounding clay like pottery and the Jinn (what is invisible) from firy disposition (or chaos)."
In addition to the clay theory you have mentioed in your post, the firey disposition (or chaotic nature) should also be explained.
Neurons in the human brain function literally through electrical discharges that cannot occur in nature without being chaotic. They cannot occur in a cohesive and coherent pattern as they do in the brain.
So we have been given a body that bonds with clay, but without the next portion of the verse, we would be just like pottery (lifeless) We have been given life, intellect and emotions through our firey disposition fashioned into coherent form.
One more of the marvels of Allah!
But again we seek guidence from the scripture and try to visualize its message within the confines of our understanding ... that can only be done as a projection of a universal message on that puny brain of ours D off which we only use 10% at best. My point in the previous thread was more of a theoretical one rather than pragmatic however )
Your interpretation is EXCELLENT by the way. We have to move past superstitions in order to raise our "self". I wonder if you've read Iqbal?
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Yes i do ) great fan of Parwez and dear Iqbal...
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That there is some close affinity, or some link of destiny between JINNS and Mankind seems certain, for although the vast majority of the JINNS are DEVILS, SHAYTANS, nevertheless we are assured in the QUR'AN that some among their many species are "goodies" and are capable of salvation. For it is specifically stated that Muhammad was sent as a Messenger to both Mankind and the JINNS, so that, in the Final Days, some of the JINNS will enter into Paradise, while the rest of them will be cast down into Hell. Their revelation to IBLIS, the Top Devil ( = "Satan" is in general somewhat obscure. In the QUR'AN IBLIS is certainly described as a JINN, but elsewhere in the QUR'AN he is also described as an ANGEL. (Surely the explanation is that IBLIS is that same high being, originally of Angelic status, who rebelled against God and is named in the Christian texts as "LUCIFER?" )
For further discussion on this see
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6888.0
God is He Who created seven skies (universes) and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them descends His command that you may know that God has power over all things, and that God?s knowledge encompasses all things (12) chapter 65, Holy Koran.
Iblis was not mentioned in Koran as an angel but the Koran mentioned him along with the angels and he received an order from God that was given to the angels. He is one who had a high status and is fallen. He does not have power except on those that allow him to have power over them. This is how I understand the statements of the Koran about him. He probably a non-entity by now.
Nowhere it says in the Koran, that Iblis was a fallen angel; or even an angel. Nowhere it says in the Old Testament; that Lucifer is a fallen angel; or even an angel. This is a myth in Christianity and the Muslims are borrowing this myth. Lucifer is a Latin name, not a Semitic name. How did a Latin name end up in Old Testament (King James Version); where all the other names are Semitic. For this myth in Christianity see the above article! >D >D >D
Iblis is a proper noun and "satan" is a noun and adjective, which means, "adversary" and as just an adjective it means, "evil". See the both whole chapters of Koran, chapter 113 and chapter 114, the last two chapters of Koran for the definition of "satan".
The words, ".... minor problem...."
Is the above quote the understatement of the last 10 centuries? >D
*** Lucifer - The Fallen Angel ***
http//lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml
The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 1412 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains
"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?
The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."
Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King".
The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.
So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 2216 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan so says the Word of God'...."
Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,
"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 1018 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 144 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...
How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.
How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."
Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".
So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning". Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.
The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer' is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 119, where the Greek text has exactly the same term 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 2216.
So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon) was written beginning in about 600 BC, and the author in 600 BC supposedly copied Isaiah in Isaiah's original words. When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah actually wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of LDS scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 7626 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah.
Mohamed
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Salaam All,
Iblis was not mentioned in Koran as an angel but the Koran mentioned him along with the angels and he received an order from God that was given to the angels. He is one who had a high status and is fallen. He does not have power except on those that allow him to have power over them. This is how I understand the statements of the Koran about him. He probably a non-entity by now.
God is He Who created seven skies (universes) and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them descends His command that you may know that God has power over all things, and that God?s knowledge encompasses all things (verse 12) chapter 65, Holy Koran.
And on jinn...
Question
I am completely ignorant on the issue of Jinn here and everywhere else in the Qur'an however. What is their significance/meaning? How do progressives interpret Jinn?
Answer
Imagine Muhammad had to explain Jinn to a mindset of 1400 years ago, when people considered the world is flat. In English definition, we just had the translation for this word about 50 years ago. Could Jinn be equated to Extraterrestrials (ET). God always gives us things in pairs, for example, 'ins - human' and 'jinn - et'; day and night; woman and man; and asks us not to compare these pairs as they are not alike. But look at the advantages in them.
If one compares day and night, what does one sees. The day could be white and the night could be black. While, the could be day scouring heat and the night could be beautiful breeze. This is comparing them as opposite poles. Is this comparison fair? No, this is a linear thinking, not multi dimensional. We are not looking at the advantages given to them. Now let us make a circle of the day and night, keeping one on the left and the other on the right. Now let us see how these two merge into each other and how many different shades are in them.
The South Park is created, written and voiced by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, and recently these two were interviewed on TV. One of them said, that he believes in God, but can't understand that the Kingdom of God is sooo, soooo vast, why we are the only intelligent being in this vast Kingdom. Now let us take the pair of ins and jinn and make a circle of this pair. Try to imagine how many shades are in them. How many different creations are in them and realize how vast is God Kingdom. How many shades are in woman and man.
Link http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1914.570
Thanks, Mohamed
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Your interpretation is EXCELLENT by the way. We have to move past superstitions in order to raise our "self". I wonder if you've read Iqbal?
Salaam maxq,
You mean allama Iqbal? The guy who wrote, "Complain" and "Complain Answered Complain" and who was almost hanged!
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aladdin,
First off, Iblis is not a proper noun... there are two contending theories that Iblis comes from the Greek DiaBolos transcribed into Arabic, or through the root BALAS, which loosely means grief, sorrow, anguish, loss ...
Secondly, I am speaking of indeed the author of Shikwah and Jawaab-e Shikwaah... the way you mentioned the hanging elemet was as if he was a heretic. Do keep in mind that Jesus too was put up on the cross (though he did not die from it)... too often we see great men tormented for their ideology.
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Salaam maxq,
Don't get me wrong about allama Iqbal. He is one of my heros. He was the greatest influence on Goethe. Iqbal and Ghalib were the influence on getting independent from the British masters, though now the credit goes to Gandhi. Goethe because of Iqbal's influence on him, Goethe influenced many others in the West.
In Koran Iblis was the name of a jinn who refused direct command of God to do sujood to Adam. There are two reasons given for this command.
- Humans are better than angels.
- God wanted to expose Iblis.
Or both the above.
Names have meanings, such as Hassan means, "beautiful". Iblis means, "despair" and God named Iblis as such because God knew Iblis was not His true "abd" as Iblis was pretending to be.
Here are some of the quotes from Goethe
Stupid that everyone in his case is praising his particular opinion! If Islam means ?submission to God?; we all live and die in Islam.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
?Jesus felt pure and calmly thought
Only the One God;
Who made himself to be a god,
Offends his holy will.
And thus the right(ness) has to shine
What Mahomet also achieved;
Only by the term of the One
He mastered the whole world?- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Ameen, Ya'Rabbi!
Mohamed
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Dear Mohamed,
Please refer to the meaning of the word sajdah and sujood... it has nothing to do with physical prostration, but rather being under the grasp of, or obeying. Our selfish desire and fiery disposition is not under our control by default and we have to work at it to control it... simple.
If however you believe that Allah asked angels to physically perform sajdah to Adam, then you must also believe in ritual Salah/Namaz. If you do then I'll end the discussion right here.
Not sure if this answers your question about my post? Please let me know.
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Peace,
Mohammed, the idea of 'spirits' can be found in any tradition. I see you are not aware that ancient commentators say the same thing as i do. That the word jinn is NOT a title of an intelligent species, but a description of an attribute an object or creature could have. The idea that the word jinn is a title became the main trend only after 500AH. As you said the Arabic is very wide and you are limiting it. You say that we must beware. I say to you You have no knowledge what so ever on the commentators of the Quran, otherwise you would have known that the early commentators didn't see the word jinn as a title of a species. You are a classic muslim who carries on the trend that is dominant for the last 600 years in Islam that was started by ex-christians, persians and jews. The Quran talking about evolution is directly connected with the story of the early people, adami, in the Quran. The bigbang in the Quran has nothing to do with this discussion. I suggest you start learning more on ancient commentators instead of just following the crowd. The trend that you defend, emerged 600 years ago in Islam and is the reason for the downfall of Islam.
You say beware for the ones who try to divide sunni/shia/ibada. This comment is ignorant as they are already divided. It is because of these sects Islam is divided. The fitna has always been there and will always be there. The idea that it has begun again is ignorance. It is because the muslims have followed certain commentators the last 1000 years blindly Islam was destroyed, and guess what the background was of those commentators? Yes, christians and persians and jews. You warn us for these groups infiltrating now, but you are ignorant of the fact that these groups already destroyed Islam from the beginning on....
Time for you to learn more brother....
Peace
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Peace,
This is a typical answer when they can't defend their position. I can read the arabic and understand it, but i use CLASSIC arabic dictionaries as background and not MODERN arabic which you use IF you can read Arabic. I study Islam at college university, this is no hobby of mine. But this has nothing to do with it and is just an easy escapegoat by you.
The idea of jinn being the name of a species is a trend that emerged around a 1000 years ago and became the dominant trend around 600 years ago. Iblis was approached not a creature, but as the name of the frustrated side of man, and shaitan was not used as a title, but used to describe ANYTHING distanced from Allah and Truth. That shaitan the noun became Shaitan the title of an evil creature, is because of Persian/Christian influence, where the noun satan of the hebrew texts also became the title Satan, the fallen angel. Under these Persians/Christian influences, the real meanings and understanding of shaitan and iblis became ignored and redundant and was replaced by foreign interpretation of older and especially wrong Theology. Why do you think Allah brought another Scripture? Not only because the older ones were distorted, the approaches to these texts were highly distorted. When the Quran came, the text couldn't be changed, but they still had their twisted approach which they used on the Quran.
The Islam of the last 1000-600 years is the end result of using the twisted approach of the Persians/Christians/Jews on the Quran, and the real meanings were replaced over time so they became overall accepted and used in the arabic language.
BEWARE for the ignorance of believing your approach is based on Quran-arabic and was always the approach to the Quran, because i can prove it is different just by studying the ancient commentators.
Peace
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Salaam Arnoldyasin
You are a very good Muslim and I have visited your site. No doubt we both agree about the definition of satan. And you can see that I have written satan with a small 's'. Of course, you are well aware about the definition of satan and explanation of it in the complete last two chapters of the Holy Koran, the chapters 113 and 144.
I also agree with you that Iblis no longer exists.. The only thing we don't agree that if the jinn is a species or not. According to my reading of the Koran I believe that jinn is a species, created long, long before humans. Jinns like humans are mortals and have freewill like humans. The messenger Muhammad in Koran is mentioned as a messenger for both jinns and humans; no other messenger in Koran is mentioned as such.
Since Iblis was (past tense) and a mortal, so he longer exist.. Iblis and satan are not exchangeable with each other. Man is central to Christianity because God is man and Lucifer is a man on earth, not to Islam. God Kingdom is very, very vast and expanding.
So, I request you to consider that there are other higher intelligent beings beside humans. And, in between these two higher intelligent beings there are lots of other intelligent beings. I request you not to restrict yourself just because Iblis was a jinn and refused God's command, so there are no other intelligent beings.
I have been to your site and seen your excellent articles. I have also seen, that you like me believe that Koran talks about the evolution. By this I mean the evolution with the big "E". I will also suggest that if you read the new 2006 theory of Big Bang!, it is like the Koranic theory. The recent interview on BBC (Hardtalk) with Penrose, the mini god of Big Bang!, the colleague of Hawking. If you want to I can post you the link for it.
Also, I have revulsion with the theory of Lucifer, Rapture and such things. I call the Rapture the Crapture. No offense intended to anyone.
If I have offended you than I apologize and seek forgiveness in the month of Ramadan.
Mohamed
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Peace,
You haven't read my article and you don't understand a thing i see. I never said iblis doesn't excist anymore, i said and say it does excist as iblis is the arabic word used in the Quran for our desperate and frustrated side. IBLIS IS NO CREATURE OR MORTAL. JINN IS NOT A TITLE OF A SPECIES AND THE QURAN DOESN'T REFER TO AN INVISIBLE CREATURE RACE.
AND THE QURAN DOES REFER TO EVOLUTION, IT WERE EVEN MUSLIMS WHO SAID MAN EVOLVED FROM APES. DARWIN STOLE THIS THEORY AND MADE IT 'WESTERN'.
You don't offend me at all, i'm just disappointed in your stubborness and blindness in the things i'm saying. I have posted several things and I NEVER SAID IBLIS WAS MORTAL OR DOESN'T EXCIST ANYMORE. That is the annoying part that you keep repeating your ideas instead of discussing the points i bring to you. JINN IS NOT A TITLE OF A SPECIES. IBLIS IS A JINN BECAUSE IT IS NOT SEEN BECAUSE IT IS A SIDE OF MAN'S PSYCHE. JINN MEANS SOMETHING RARELY OR NOT SEEN/CONCEALED BY TIME. SO THIS MEANS ANYTHING THAT IS RARELY SEEN OR CONCEALED.
read my article again and i will show you that you have NO proof at all for the 'intelligent beings' you are talking about. The Quran does NOT talk about a race next to humans at all.
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Salaam Arnoldyasin,
We agree to disagree. Hassan is name and it means beautiful. Iblis is a name and it means despair. Though only Muhammad is mentioned in the Koran as messenger for both jinns and humans. This is what Koran says about Solomon
The Ant Chapter number 27
And before Solomon were marshaled his hosts, - of jinns and humans and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. Verse 17.
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said ?O? you ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it.? Verse 18.
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said O? my Lord, my Sustainer! So order me that I may be grateful for Your favors, which you have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please You And admit me, by Your Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous servants.? Verse 19. Smile
Ameen
The question is why Koran tells us that only Muhammad (pbuh) is the messenger for both jinns and humans, why not other messengers such as Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Jesus?
Mohamed
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Salaam arnoldyasin,
You might interested in this
Rashad is the only one who believes that God's khalifa on earth is satan and that satan is a god on earth. This is what the Christians beleive. Catch the drift!
No mainstream Muslim believe as such. All mainstream Muslims believe that God's khalifa on earth is human beings.
Mohamed
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Dear Mohamed,
Please do give some material from www.ourbeacon.com a read ... I would urge you to give QXP - "Quran as It explains Itself" a read (in its entirity), reflect on it, and then come back to have a meaningful discussion. Please give up looking for resources such as Bukhari or Tabari for explanation of the Quran through Hadith.
Regards,
maxq -
Dear Mohamed,
Please do give some material from www.ourbeacon.com a read ... I would urge you to give QXP - "Quran as It explains Itself" a read (in its entirity), reflect on it, and then come back to have a meaningful discussion. Please give up looking for resources such as Bukhari or Tabari for explanation of the Quran through Hadith.
Regards,
maxqDear, Dear maxq,
You are telling me to read the translation of the Koran, when I can read it in my own language of Arabic and discuss the Koran with people in Arabic. Kudos to you my dear, dear friend.
And before Solomon were marshaled his hosts, - of jinns and humans and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. Verse 17, Chapter 27.
You see in the above aya, three creations are discussed, three distinct creation are discussed. The jinns, human and the one's who fly.
I suggest you should read up on Rapture, the number is 666, the Devil trapping the God in Hell for three days, Lucifer, Milton's Paradise lost, Dante's Divine Comedy, Pullman's His Dark Materials, Goethe's Faust. While at this, try to read Alama Iqbal and Ghalib (both Pakistanis).
Ones you have done this, then you will understand the proper threat to mankind.
Mohamed