The Prayer Issue Revived

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

I would like to draw the attention of the readers to the continued manipulation of the word of God and twisting it intentionally by someone on this thread.

This person is putting forth the argument that al-masjid al-haram means "sacred" mosque, and then implying that it is in mecca as used in the qur'aan.

HOW CAN HARAM BE TRANSLATED AS SACRED? Is that not twisting God's words?

The word for sacred is "moqaddas". Haram means "inviolable" or "restricted".

Secondly, God did mention the word "makkah" in the qur'aan once, in context of a war. NOWHERE did He say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah.

There is ZERO evidence of the existence of a mosque by the name of al-masjid al-haraam in a place by the name of Makkah. Even if we go by the fabricated sectarian historical documents, there was no mosque by the name of al-masjid al-haraam in Makkah around the so called Kaaba when the prophet allegedly migrated from there. He did not allegedly come back to Makkah until after Makkah was conquered and only then he could have built any kind of mosque there but the order for changing the qiblah came before that, so how could he have faced some non-existent mosque in Makkah when that order came?

The FACT is that NOWHERE in the qur'aan does God say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah. Al-masjid al-haraam means "the inviolable institution of obedience" as used in the qur'aan and cannot mean a physical building as used in the qur'aan. The qur'aan DIRECTLY tells us that al-masjid al-haraam is "THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD". We are supposed to face the truth from our Lord wherever we are; that is make obedience of God as our target/goal/qiblah wherever we are. Also, the people of the book know al-masjid al-haraam just like their own children. The Jews and the Christians never knew a so called "restricted temple" in Makkah. This has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum before.

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.

Here, grammatically, "it" refers to "al-masjid al-haraam".

2146 Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.

Firstly, there is no mention of salaat in the context of the al-masjid al-haraam being the qiblah verses. So facing al-masjid al-haraam is not ONLY during salaat.

Secondly, if it is a physical building, then how can we face it WHEREVER WE ARE or WHEREVER WE GO OUT as per the following

2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable institution of obedience. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.

Suppose you are driving North towards Canada from USA, you are not facing a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haraam, so you are disobeying God, right? You are supposed to face it WHEREVER YOU ARE and WHEREVER YOU GO OUT.

Suppose you are sitting in front of your computer at home or in front of TV in USA facing North, you are not facing a physical building by the name of al-masjid al-haraam, so you are disobeying God, right? You are supposed to face it WHEREVER YOU ARE and WHEREVER YOU GO OUT.

INFACT, WE ARE TOLD THAT GOD IS EVERYWHERE, SO IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER WE TURN EAST OR WEST. SO PHYSICAL DIRECTION IS NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL

2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing,

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west,............................

An excellent relevant post about Makkah

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597942.0

The other thing I would like to draw the readers attention to is another case of manipulating and twisting God's words. Someone here earlier said that athqaan means face because chins are part of face wow

HOW MUCH MORE CAN SOMEONE TWIST AND MANIPULATE THE WORDS OF GOD?

Using the same logic, athqaan can also mean legs, or arms, or chest, because chins are part of the body which includes all those.

UNBELIEVABLE. HOW LOW CAN PEOPLE STOOP TO JUSTIFY THEIR OWN PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND THEIR FOREFATHERS PRACTICES OVER THE WORD OF THE GOD?

c0de

Ahmed + Truthseeker

@ Ahmed

Salaam bro

and it doesn't say that this was directed towards the Jews. The actual passage speaks about the devils RECITING certain things in Solomon's kingdom, which the people adhered to but Solomon rejected.

The actual act which Solomon PBUH is accused of in the Book of Kings is heresy and disbelief.
And the Quranic verse which redeems Solomon PBUH exactly counters this very claim. Your argument
that they are two separate incidents is only an assertion, and an illogical one. Why would God redeem
Solomon PBUH in the Quran if he was a heretic? Does that make sense to you?

The Qur'aanic passage doesn't say anything about fabrications,

I have now provided you with 3 verses which use exactly that word forged/fabricated.
And not with their "mouths" either, as you claimed earlier, but their hands i.e. written scripture,
and not "oral commentaries".

@ Ahmed

HOW CAN HARAM BE TRANSLATED AS SACRED? Is that not twisting God's words?

The word for sacred is "moqaddas". Haram means "inviolable" or "restricted".

Actually, all of these words you used, are synonyms of each other.
Here is a thesaurus. Scroll down

http//thesaurus.reference.com/browse/sacred?qsrc=2890

An excellent relevant post about Makkah

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597942.0

The "Quran alone" movement along with these Christian arguments that
the "valley of Bacca" mentioned in the Bible is not referring to Mecca, (and
that Abraham PBUH never travelled to Mecca) is falsified by historical records
even the orientalist William Muir cites Diodorus Siculus (1st century Greek historian)
"there is in this country a temple greatly revered by the Arabs" (Life of Mahomet).

Their entire argument is founded on the claim that Mecca only gained religious
importance after the 7th century BCE. But this is not true. Mecca was known as
a spiritual center well before the Prophet PBUH was born, and since time immemorial.
i.e. this is the place referred to in numerous places in the Quran such as 2125
where the command to pray is explicitly connected with the "place of Abraham"
and God calls this His own house, and ordains it for a place of pilgrimage.

There is absolutley no evidence that the "Quran Alone" movement has provided (ever) that the early
Muslims, during the time of Muhammed PBUH, ever faced any other direction other then Mecca while praying
once the verse proclaiming its importance was revealed. Therefore, their entire argument is based on speculation.

Just as a side note, in the Quran Abraham PBUH asked God that "Bakkah" become a city of peace.
Now interestingly enough, Jeruselum actually translates into "city of peace" but in reality, Jeruselum
has always been a city of blood, and continues to be a focal point of war even today (as it always was).
While Mecca has always been a peaceful, "sacred/restricted" place, and it continues to be completely
peaceful today. Even when it is controlled by the crazy wahhabis.

NOWHERE did He say that al-masjid al-haraam is in a place by the name of Makkah.

Actually the Kabbah at Mecca is referred to by several names, but all of them refer to
the same place. The fact is that everyone already knows the Kabbah is Masjid al-Haram.

Salawaat refers to ALL the salaats in one's lifetime, and EACH OF THOSE SALAATS SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED IN THE BEST/BALANCED MANNER. That is what 2238 is telling us and this does not cause any redundancies..

There is a major contradiction in your argument. If God telling us to establish all our prayers in
the best manner, then this implies that a manner/method exists and must be followed, which
also implies that salat is not some abstract idealic concept but has a form and a method.

All of this still does not refute the evidence for the 5 separate times mentioned in the Quran
which cover the 5 established prayer timings today. And as for the argument that different
words are used for different times, I would remind you that the Quran uses many different
words to refer to the same things many times. God himself is called by different names
in the Quran, this doesn't mean that the Quran is talking about different gods! The same
is true for the salat and the Kabbah which have both been called in the Quran multiple times
using different words.

Someone here earlier said that athqaan means face because chins are part of face

Wrong. Now you are the one who is twisting my words.
I only said that the translations of the Quran which have
translated the verse using the word "face" are technically
accurate, because the chin is part of the face. I never said
the word chin=face.

PeAcE

raginggaijin

Peace be unto you, brothers and sisters,

Peace be unto you, truthseeker11,

I believe this is from my recent post under the 'Sacred Mosque/Farthest Mosque'. If so, please take this to that forum so others may see the Surahs and enjoin in prayer and study as they seek guidance from God. This will be the last time I respond to this in this thread. As well, I do not appreciate the side-ways attack given in a totally different thread. I have not treated anyone in a rude or malicious manner to my knowledge (except the pedophiles and I won't rescind it.) We are brothers and sisters seeking God. Please act accordingly. If I am making assumptions, please accept my humble apologies.

Yet I do have to ask Why is your reaction so violent to this declaration?

Let me be clear. I am just a man who worships God and only God. I am striving to follow the righteous path. I am not some pure-hearted soul who is being visited by Gabriel or any other manifestation of the unseen. I am only doing as I am directed in the Quran Praying to and worshipping God daily, studying the Quran daily, and doing good deeds (as best I can). I killed my television set and spend that time instead in the pages of the Quran. Best time investment yet.

"The Safa and the Marwah are truly among the signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit (to it), there is no blame on him if he goes round them. And whoever does good spontaneously - surely Allah is Bountiful in rewarding, Knowing." Surah 2158

God is All Knowing, Omniscient, the Creator and Lord of the worlds. In God all things are possible. God sent the Quran as a guidance for man, not as a tool to confuse and deceive. Surah 426

"The majority of those who believe in God do not do so without committing idol worship." Surah 12106

It is a warning most here heed, which is why for many of us, facing an object in prayer is abhorrent.

Again, I only post what my belief is based off of patient prayer and study. No man or woman should take what I say for Truth until they too have prayed to God for guidance and sought the Truth in the Quran for themselves. You can also see how I have progressed down this path and admitted I was wrong in previous posts concerning not facing Masjid Al-Haram. If I have erred, I have complete and utter faith God will chastise me and show me the Truth in the Quran, and I will ask for forgiveness and ensure everyone here knows my error. Surah 417
It is complete, the only guidance, and easy to read and remember if you believe. Surah 373, 487, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 7750

Insincere readers are diverted from the meaning of the Quran
7146, 1745, 1857, 4144

The above Surahs are why I must patiently pray and study the Quran daily, while doing the good deeds God requires of us. If I do not believe with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength, all my mind, I will not find the Truth. I must change my life to suit God, not my own desires. I do not want to face the Fire. Contrary to Christian belief, it is not a brief incident. Surah 279-80

Muhammad's duty is clear.
?The duty of the Messenger is only to deliver (the message). And Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.? Surah 599

God tells the believers 3 times to face Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2144, 149, 150.
God tells the believers 3 times this is truth from Him, so be not of the doubters. Surah 2144, 147, 149

This is one of the hardest tests from our Lord for a reason. It places our complete and utter faith in God and God alone. Not men, only God.

Bear witness As Muhammad feared the punishment of Judgement in disobeying his Lord, so too do I fear disobeying my Lord, God. Surah 1015
I came this close ] to the Fire as a Christian. After being guided to the Quran, I would be a madman or a fool to turn on my heel and disobey God. &

We are also warned that a party surely conceal the truth while they know. Surah 2146

We are told to share what we know, and not hide it. Surah 242

As well, we are told in no uncertain terms what happens if we are lying or conceal what the Book reveals. Surah 2174-176

Masjid Al-Haram is named, as is Masjid Al-Aqsa. The Sacred House is Al-Kabah. If the Kaaba was the First House, was it not a qiblah? Surah 2125
Surah 2225-33,36,73 595,97, 2125,127,142-150, 396, 1437, 728,31,73, 91,17,19-22,28, 171,81, 3449, 1051

To say Masjid Al-Haram did not exist in Muhammad's time would beg to ask why God told Muhammad to keep the idolators away 'after this year of theirs'. Surah 928
More on this in Surahs 917-19, 28-29.

If God, in His All Knowing, Omniscient nature, put in Masjid Al-Haram in the Quran, and that structure stands today, why would I doubt the truth from my Lord?
Especially if it is now partially covering the small mountains of Safa and Marwa.
Especially if the Kaaba is contained within.

If I am a believer, who am I going to believe? God or man? Easy answer.

God gives me proof in the Quran.

Abraham and Ishmael were not Jew or Christian, they were muslims. I can find no Surah that lends credence to Muhammad facing Masjid Al-Aqsa. If there is anyone who knows the Surah, then please share. eat

Until then, the only resource concerning the Kaabah as current qiblah is tradition of man and hadith. I reject them outright when presented with the Truth from my Lord in the Quran. Surah 2170

It was this warning that started my path to God out of the Christian faith. Mark 75-8, Mat. 153, Mark 713, Col. 28, Gal. 43, John 717, Titus 19, Rom. 814-16

Before anyone says I am quoting corruption, please read Surah 4136.

God restates this warning of traditions/additions in the Quran as well. 2175, 299, 324, 378, 442, 5104, 638, 6159, 621-24, 6114-116, 824, 1036, 16105, 1773-77, 1827, 1856, 2865-66, 316, 3444, 4322-24, 456, 5234, 6844, 6944-46, 6650

As I have to rebuild my faith from Christianity to Al-Islam, I cannot fall prey to the traditions and doctrines of man again. Especially after God tells me (us) the Quran is the purest Book to guide us. And as it has taken 2 years to get where I am now, I see every reason to patiently continue in study and prayer. God is Bountiful. Allahu Akbar!

This test requires we not only pray for guidance yet also earnestly search the Quran for the Truth on this matter. God is not heedless of what we do. And I will restate God is the best guidance and praise Him for giving us the Quran! Surah 373, 487, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7750

"O you who believe, seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient." Surah 2153 (Surah 245)

"And We indeed have revealed to thee clear messages, and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors." Surah 299

If you pray the ritual salat, afterwards take some time to pray in earnest request for the Truth. Talk to God. Ask Him to guide you. He doesn't need us, we need Him.

Pray. 2153
Read. 961

Peace and blessings.

Bigmo

@ Bigmo

The admissibility of their laws is not an admission of their perfection.

Another example According to Psalm 136, Pharaoh was drowned with his army
in the Red Sea. But according to the Quran Pharaoh was spared to be made
an example of for all to see. And today, his mummified body rests in a museum.
This is further proof that the Tanakh contains errors, while the Quran is perfect.

More conclusive proof from the Quran

...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446

PeAcE

The Torah is not structured like the Koran. It is a library of scriptures spanning centuries and not a revelation brought down on one man word by word for a period of 20 years. Its not just a theological book, its stories, biographies, narratives, eye witness accounts, a history of a people, and revelations brought down on numerous prophets. Its unique in its own way as the Koran is unique in its own way.

The verses you quoted are not to be interpreted as you imply. I have dealt with it before and gave you a link before.

"Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).

2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.

2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.

2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"

This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah."

http//www.conflictingviews.com/religion/all-religions/koran-says-torah-gospel-not-corrupted-3324.html

As far as the other verse you quoted I am not sure where you got that translation

Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.

It has nothing to do with what you are saying. You can't read the OT the way you read the Koran but then again the Koran makes it up with difficulty of interpretation. It balances out. One is filled with information but are a collection of Books while the other is the exact words of God revealed to Muhammad but very consice and compact leaving room for vagueness and ambiguity. Its part of God's plan.

28.48. But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say "For us, we reject all (such things)!"

Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"

Its crystal clear. Notice the Koran tells the prophet to say " which is a better guide", that includes the OT. Those who continue to believe the Koran says otherwise I place in the same category as those who believe the Earth is flat.

raginggaijin

Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"

Its crystal clear. Those who continue to believe the Koran says otherwise I place in the same category as those who believe the Earth is flat.

Peace be unto you, brother,

With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect. (Holy Qur'an 1645)

Well stated, brother Bigmo. Or as I would say in my early days of FPS video games Well played, sir! Well played!

May you continue to be guided by God.

Peace and blessings.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace c0de,

The actual act which Solomon PBUH is accused of in the Book of Kings is heresy and disbelief.
And the Quranic verse which redeems Solomon PBUH exactly counters this very claim. Your argument
that they are two separate incidents is only an assertion, and an illogical one. Why would God redeem
Solomon PBUH in the Quran if he was a heretic? Does that make sense to you?

C'mon, brother, this is starting to get ridiculous... Where in the Torah is Solomon said to have turned to sorcery?! That's what the Qur'aanic passage is talking about. It's not talking about idolatry in the form of worshipping false gods, it's talking about 2 people spreading sorcery and magic throughout the land. This is NOT mentioned in the Torah at all, or in the Tanakh at all. You're going to need a lot more proof than "it says he was heretic" - that doesn't mean these two accounts are the same at all!

I have now provided you with 3 verses which use exactly that word forged/fabricated.
And not with their "mouths" either, as you claimed earlier, but their hands i.e. written scripture,
and not "oral commentaries".

Really?! Where is the word "forged" (or fabricated) used in that Qur'aanic passage (not including the mistranslation you posted)? It doesn't appear in the Arabic reading at all... If it's there, please point it out. Which word in that verse means "forged/fabricated"?

Peace,

Ahmad

c0de

Bigmo + Ahmed

Salaam brothers

@ Bigmo,

Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
off the top of my head.

@ Ahmed

Which word in that verse means "forged/fabricated"?

Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
then an accusation of forgery/fabrication

...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446

C'mon, brother, this is starting to get ridiculous... Where in the Torah is Solomon said to have turned to sorcery?! That's what the Qur'aanic passage is talking about. It's not talking about idolatry in the form of worshipping false gods, it's talking about 2 people spreading sorcery and magic throughout the land. This is NOT mentioned in the Torah at all, or in the Tanakh at all. You're going to need a lot more proof than "it says he was heretic" - that doesn't mean these two accounts are the same at all!

Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.

PeAcE

Bigmo

Bigmo + Ahmed

Salaam brothers

@ Bigmo,

Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
off the top of my head.

@ Ahmed

Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
then an accusation of forgery/fabrication

...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 278-79

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446

Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.

PeAcE

The verse reads like this

4.46. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.

The other verse you quote is not verse 2-78-79, its only 2-79

Verse 2-78 is

2.78 And there are among them illiterates(umiyeen), who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Umiyeen is not linguistic illiterate but illiterate about the scriptures. Its not saying the Book itself has been tampered but perhaps some attempt was made by some. You must look at all the verses in the Koran regarding this subject and not made judgement based on how you intepret a single verse especially if it goes against the rest of the Koran concerning this matter. The Koran says

3.93. All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

Also

3.78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

Lets look at the context of verse 2-79 since its the only verse people can misunderstand

Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say "We believe" But when they meet each other in private, they say "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?"- Do ye not understand (their aim)? Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?" (276-80)

So in anyways the verses are talking about people during Muhammad's time who wanted to show the Talmud as authentic teachings of the Torah. The fire would not touch us is a Talmudic quote. Also the verse says they were trying to deceive Muhammad by telling him this is the teachings of the Torah when its not. They did not want to argue with him regarding the authenticity of the Talmud. The Koran says

Sura 10) 94 If you are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto you, question those who have been reading the Book (Scriptures)from before you the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord so be in no wise of those who are in doubt

(Sura 3) 93 Say (to Israel) Bring the Tawrat and study it if you are men of truth. If any after this invent a lie and attribute it to Allah they are indeed unjust wrong-doers

So it seems some people around him from the Jews tried to deceive him, thus the verse

2.78 And there are among them illiterates(umiyeen), who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

The Book itself was with those who have knowledge of it and not these Umiyeen, they are just a bunch of neocons playing propaganda. The Book itself was with the Rabbis. The Koran says ask those who read the scriptures before you, meaning the men of knowledge.

c0de

@ Bigmo

You do realize that my argument is not just based on those verses right?
So the article which you are providing is irrelevant at this point bro.
Refer to my previous response for specifics.

PeAcE

Bigmo

@ Bigmo

You do realize that my argument is not just based on those verses right?
So the article which you are providing is irrelevant at this point bro.
Refer to my previous response for specifics.

PeAcE

Don't worry C0de, you are not the only one who can't stomach the previous scriptures. Not by a long shot. You're in good company here.

c0de

Don't worry C0de, you are not the only one who can't stomach the previous scriptures. Not by a long shot. You're in good company here.

You'd be surprised at what I can stomach... But this isn't about that. It is about what the Quran says vs. the Tanakh.

Rami

You'd be surprised at what I can stomach... But this isn't about that. It is about what the Quran says vs. the Tanakh.

Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.

The Pharaoh Dilemma

Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.

Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

NO COMMENT.

The Divorce Loophole

We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.

Peace,

Rami

c0de

@ Rami

Dude, thanks for that useful intell. There are so many of these "loopholes"
in Judaism because of their shaky scriptures, its even kinda funny.

PeAcE

Bigmo

Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.

The Pharaoh Dilemma

Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.

Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

NO COMMENT.

The Divorce Loophole

We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.

Peace,

Rami

There are many prophets in the Torah. Which prophetic traditions are you relying on from the Torah when you say divorce should be so and so.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Rami,

Amen brother. I just fired 2 ballistic missiles on the Jews. They are trying to dodge it but they will most probably hit. One about Pharaoh and the other about divorce.

Ummm... Okay...

The Pharaoh Dilemma

Gen 142 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

Exd 611 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Gen 1217 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

Gen 4114 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh.

Exd 311 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

NO COMMENT.

rotfl I'm sure there's no comment on this. What does this have to do with anything?! They don't contradict eachother or the whole of the book, since the two examples are listed as being HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART. They don't have anything to do with eachother... NEXT... )

The Divorce Loophole

We all know that adultery means sleeping with a married woman and it is a great offense due to mixing of seeds. Suppose we have a married couple. They had intercourse and on the next day, they decided a divorce. In the Torah, the divorce is completed by the man giving her a divorce paper and sending her away. Now this women can marry another man in the same day. This is adultery as mixing of seeds took place! Now in the Quran, a divorce is a countdown, once the count is over(days with no intercourse), her womb is clear of your seed, then the divorce is complete.

You've obviously misunderstood the Torah... According to the Torah, the punishment for adultery is DEATH, not divorce. It doesn't mention anything about the 'mixing of seeds'. The Qur'aan details many of these prohibitions because of prevalent unchastity throughout the region among the Arabs. The Arabs were regarded by G-d Himself as the worst of rejectors and disbelievers (see 990, 97). The Jews, however, were instructed to maintain chastity from their youth and throughout their lives, and they were considered people of G-d. Therefore, because of differing cultures and practices, there were separate stipulations and time periods placed on the people... Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...

Peace,

Ahmad

c0de

Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...

Actually bro, this had already been proven before.
Whether you admit it or not, is another story.

PeAcE

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace c0de,

Actually bro, this had already been proven before.
Whether you admit it or not, is another story.

Okay... You keep saying that it has already been PROVEN that the Torah is corrupted, and you even claim that the Qur'aan says this as well. What I'm asking is WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS?! The Qur'aan never comes out and says that the previous scriptures were forged, which is why the Qur'aan CONFIRMS them, not overrides them. The Jews are STILL expected to follow the Torah, and Nazarenes are STILL expected to follow the Injeel. There is no discrepancy in this at all... So, if the Torah has already been "proven" to be false and fabricated, then please state some proof from the Qur'aan. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of the "fabricated Torah" or anything like that. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of rabbis, priests, or governing officials literally changing (or fabricating) the words of G-d within the scripture, which G-d Himself admittedly sent down to the prophets of Israel. If you can't do this, then you haven't proven anything...

Peace,

Ahmad

c0de

Peace c0de,

Okay... You keep saying that it has already been PROVEN that the Torah is corrupted, and you even claim that the Qur'aan says this as well. What I'm asking is WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS?! The Qur'aan never comes out and says that the previous scriptures were forged, which is why the Qur'aan CONFIRMS them, not overrides them. The Jews are STILL expected to follow the Torah, and Nazarenes are STILL expected to follow the Injeel. There is no discrepancy in this at all... So, if the Torah has already been "proven" to be false and fabricated, then please state some proof from the Qur'aan. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of the "fabricated Torah" or anything like that. Point out a passage in the Qur'aan where it speaks of rabbis, priests, or governing officials literally changing (or fabricating) the words of G-d within the scripture, which G-d Himself admittedly sent down to the prophets of Israel. If you can't do this, then you haven't proven anything...

Peace,

Ahmad

It seems you are just repeating objections which have already been nullified.
But if you feel it ok to repeat, then I shall to

An admissibility of its laws is not an admission of its perfection.

plus

Psalm 136 is not part of the Talmud, it is part of the Tanakh.
So is the Book of Kings. Both of them contain obvious errors
which contradict the Quran. And these are just two examples
off the top of my head.

and also

@ Ahmed

Explain to me how the following two verses can be interpreted in any other way
then an accusation of forgery/fabrication

...Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say,
"This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. 279

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say,
"This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price.
Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
446

Actually, the Book of Kings accuses Solomon of disbelief via having his heart turned away from God.
And that is exactly what the Quranic verse redeems him against. So the charges of the Tanakh are
falsified wholesale. It does not even matter if they were separate incidents or not. It is
clearly written in the Quran that Solomon PBUH did not disbelieve PERIOD. If he indeed was a heretic like
the Book of Kings implies, (at any point in his life, especially later on) then why would the Quran
redeem him at all? Let alone against any specific stories in the talmud? It wouldn't make any sense.

PeAcE

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace c0de,

It seems you are just repeating objections which have already been nullified.

And, like I've already stated several times, you haven't proven anything. Neither the Book of Kings or the Psalms are part of the Torah. So, if these contain errors, then what does this have to do with the sureness of the Torah itself? NOTHING... Also, you placed "quotation marks" around the word scripture, while we know in the Qur'aan, these markings are not there. So, how do you know the people were writing false "scripture"? And how do you know this was referring to the Torah? For all we know, this could be referring to the scribes writing 9128, 129 into the Qur'aan after Muhammad's death! There's no proof that any scribes literally wrote ANYTHING into the Torah scrolls themselves, and this is why they found it necessary to write extensive commentaries on the scriptures in the form of the Talmud.

Regarding the story of Solomon, this point has no relevance at all. The scriptures are talking about two completely different time periods and incidents, not the same one. While the Qur'aan gives a more "righteous and infallible" view of the prophets (in many instances), the Torah gives deeper insight into their righteous and wicked behaviors. This is why Jews adamantly refuse to acknowledge the infallibility of any Jewish prophets. This is different from the Qur'aan, especially considering the fact that many sectarian Muslims view the prophets as "perfect" and "sinless", a concept that is totally foreign in the Torah and Jewish history... Sure, the Qur'aan doesn't mention the transgression of Solomon. Big deal! It also doesn't mention the issue concerning David and Bathsheba. It doesn't mention the exodus and destruction of Jerusalem. It doesn't give the details regarding Jonas and his attempt to run away from G-d. It doesn't give insight regarding Elijah and Elisha, information that is of specific importance in Jewish history. In fact, it doesn't even relate which of Abraham's sons was placed on the altar (i.e. Ishmael or Isaac). It doesn't annotate the lineage of the mashiach, and it doesn't even give any details regarding the role of the mashiach at all. So, you're telling me that, just because these things, people, and incidents are directly mentioned in the Qur'aan, they never happened or existed?!

The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...

Peace,

Ahmad

Rami

rotfl I'm sure there's no comment on this. What does this have to do with anything?! They don't contradict eachother or the whole of the book, since the two examples are listed as being HUNDREDS OF YEARS APART. They don't have anything to do with eachother... NEXT... )

Simple. The authors of the Torah had no name for the King of Egypt except for Pharaoh. Thats heresy. All the Jews I asked never responded because they know it is true. It is like saying that the King of Israel was David then David then David! or saying that Melchizedek is a title for the King of Salem.

You've obviously misunderstood the Torah... According to the Torah, the punishment for adultery is DEATH, not divorce. It doesn't mention anything about the 'mixing of seeds'. The Qur'aan details many of these prohibitions because of prevalent unchastity throughout the region among the Arabs. The Arabs were regarded by G-d Himself as the worst of rejectors and disbelievers (see 990, 97). The Jews, however, were instructed to maintain chastity from their youth and throughout their lives, and they were considered people of G-d. Therefore, because of differing cultures and practices, there were separate stipulations and time periods placed on the people... Again, this doesn't prove anything regarding the alleged corruption of the Torah, nor does it prove that the Torah itself contains inconsistencies or fabrications...

Wrong, actually the Rabbis knew this so they engineered a waiting period of 3 months speculated from the Genesis account.

Peace,

Rami