What type of Riba is prohibited ?
-
Salaam,
to understand Usury you must first understand ownership, without this it is impossible to grasp correctly, nothing can ever truly be owned by any human being, a fleeting spark (a person) can only be the custodian of anything, things are used for a short time, things are consumed, things are exploited, or things are invented, but ultimately all things are ephemeral.
To horde fiat money, gold, silver, sheep or whatever beyond any purpose or benefit, is at the detriment of those around you. You maybe the richest person in the grave yard, but not one coin, not one property, not one atom goes beyond this world and into the next, you leave this world with everything you held, owned or stole; lost?
Only those things of the mind are intermediaries, thought remains, the things of thought do not.
All things go back to the Earth, all things are allodial, to think otherwise is only the confusion of a subjugated mind.
To understand allodial ownership please read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/
(Usury the premeditated theft of the fruits of somebody else?s labour.)
Many are confused as to what usury is, and what usury is not, but it is a very simple concept only confused by one thing, the desire to gain from usury while wishing to remain a Muslim.
All the Earth is allodial, as are the fruits of the Earth, for example if I plant a field of watermelons, the watermelons are the bounty of Allah, grown from the earth and out of the seed, and from the design of Allah, but the physical labour you invested in the planting of the seed, the preparing of the land, the harvesting and marketing of the watermelons, is what you have honestly earned and deserve in reward of your labour, so when you sell the watermelon, the watermelon itself is free, as it is the bounty of Allah, but the labour it took to reach its end user and consumer must be paid by the end user and consumer.
This is in contrast to usury, if I lent you a watermelon, and expect you to repay me two watermelons in return, I have laboured in the creation of the one watermelon, but I expect a second watermelon in return for no labour, I have extorted the fruits of your labour from you, because to create the second watermelon I must labour twice as much as you laboured in the creation of just one watermelon, and surrender that labour to you in reward for no effort on your part, this is usury.
Or if I demanded 10% of your crop in exchange for insuring it against loss, so I gambled you would have a good harvest, when the odds maybe only 1% of the time a crop is lost. This is a form of usury.
The Islamic model, protecting yourself from the hardship of a crop failure is simple. A group of farmers would join together, each committing a share of their crop into the collective pot, proportionate to the size of their holdings, only if a farm failed would any burden be extracted from the collective, otherwise the insurance would cost nothing. This loss burden sharing insurance could be linked across large group collectives of farmers, so reducing the burden through scale of any potential losses.
To sell a crop of watermelons at a discounted price before you have planted the seeds, and harvested, jumping straight to market, as is now commonly practiced through the futures market, is selling something you do not have, and may never have, you may only sell what you posses, to sell a potential is a form of usury, you are selling nothing now for the fruits of someone?s labour, for a price that if you deliver in the future would be for less than you have earned.
These principles can be applied to any area of commerce, for example if you sign a contract to pay a set fee for a service, irrelevant to whether that service is used or not, say a gym membership contract, but never go, yet you can not escape the contract period, this is a futures contract and a form of usury, any contract based on potential future use of service, as opposed to actual use is again not full measure for the fruits of your labour, so usury.
Salam Alaikum
This is very well explained and I read all your posts with interest infact I shall spend more time on your site than here, so keep up the good work and God bless you.
peace -
Peace All
This debate about what constitutes usury has been going on in all kinds of circles for a long time. I agree with Abdun Nur that it is a simple matter complicated by greed.
Firstly, I would like to put to rest the concept of only compound interest being forbidden. It is clear from 2275 that Al Riba without any qualification is forbidden. In 3130, we are not allowed to take Al Riba compounded over & over again. This does not mean that only compound interest is forbidden as there is no qualification in the verse where it is actually forbidden. Furthermore, my take on these two verses is that, as with many injunctions in the quran, prohibitions came in stages. Therefore I understand 3130 to be an earlier revelation which was a stepping stone to the complete prohibition of Al Riba. This is a common occurrence in the quran and does not amount to abrogation of verses so as to say that certain verses are no longer relevant. All it means is that God has allowed an entry point for people at different stages of their development to enter into the deen of Islam in stages. This is important for a book that is to be used for as large a span of time as the quran.
Next, I would like to post my thoughts on the definitions of riba and bay'a. This is an excerpt from something I wrote on the subject;
Most of us are familiar with the verses prohibiting riba, yet many people have trouble defining the term because most attempts are made to extract the meaning from the verses where riba is mentioned directly. The problem with this approach is that the term riba is not defined in these verses. It is only through employing tasreef that one can define riba from the quraan. The verses where riba & its derivatives appear clearly indicate that the root ra-ba-wa is employed when something is increasing in itself, from itself & by itself.
Let us now look at the term bay?, which is used in contrast with riba insofar as the one being halaal, while the other is haraam. It is clear that the root ba-ya-ain is employed in the quraan in the sense of an exchange, particularly an exchange of one thing for a different thing.
Herein, I believe, lies the essential difference between the two terms of riba & bay?. In the economic process of riba, there appears to be elements of shirk in the sense that those involved see themselves as self sufficient in being able to increase a thing in itself, from itself & by itself. They do not recognise the Law of Allah in the propagation of something or the increase in something. Bay?, on the other hand consists of practitioners who realise that the Laws of Allah are responsible for everything & therefore do not seek to play Allah, but rather recognise the value of everything being an effect of the Laws of Allah once initiated by the appropriate cause & as such recognise that the labour, intellect & all its products should be valued on an equal footing as they are all bestowed by Allah, that is to say the Laws of Allah.
I also agree with what Abdun Nur has posted regarding ownership.
One of the main problems with discussions about riba is that we try to investigate it in a little box. It is an issue that must be discussed in the context of the entire system of economic values of the quran.
It would be really great if we could organise some kind of economic conference based on quranic principles. Any ideas on how we could put this together provided there is enough interest?
Imraan
-
AN, any particular reason for the lack of Quranic references?
1LNF, you would have put to rest what you said you would if you proved what "riba" meant.
Of course, I am not saying either/or is wrong, simply no intelligent person can conclude anything from what either has written.
-
Peace Wakas
AN, any particular reason for the lack of Quranic references?
1LNF, you would have put to rest what you said you would if you proved what "riba" meant.
Of course, I am not saying either/or is wrong, simply no intelligent person can conclude anything from what either has written.
I didn't put the references as I did a lot of research & it's too volumnous to post. Here are some examples to illustrate the claims I made;
Other than the actual word riba or those that refer to it, the root ra-ba-waw appears in the following verses among others
pcple. act.
1317 the water increases
1692 some communities have increased themselves more than others
6910 piled sin upon sinrabba vb. (2)
perf. act.
1724 as they caused me to growI see this as an indication of something growing in itself.
This can be contrasted with the following verses in which derivatives of the root ba-ya ain appear
9111
In this verse one thing is exchanged for a different thing. Allah gives the believers Jannah in exchange for their lives & possessions.4810 & 4818
In these verses the bay? is also described as being an exchange of one thing for a different thing. In this case, the lives & possessions of the believers for Jannah.6012
Here again there is an exchange of one thing for something else. The acceptance of the laws of Allah is exchanged for the prophet making istighfaar for them to Allah.This is the gist of my investigations into the difference between riba & bay'a.
The only thing I claimed to want to put to rest is the fact that no matter what riba is, it is not permitted whether compounded or not.
Imraan
-
peace Imraan,
The only thing I claimed to want to put to rest is the fact that no matter what riba is, it is not permitted whether compounded or not.
Firstly, I would like to put to rest the concept of only compound interest being forbidden
And my point was since you never proved what "riba" is, you never put to rest anything, as "riba" may be (compound) growth/interest in itself.
-
Peace Wakas
peace Imraan,
And my point was since you never proved what "riba" is, you never put to rest anything, as "riba" may be (compound) growth/interest in itself.
I think it is quite clear that people who claim that Al Riba refers to compounded interest, which is different form riba, have no quranic basis in their argument. As I said Al Riba is forbidden in 2275. If riba is interest (not compounded), then surely we would find in 3130 the term riba qualified as compounded and not Al Riba as this would be redundant if Al Riba were already defined as compound interest.
I know from your posts on the subject that this is not your view, however this is a view presented by those who define Al Riba as compound interest. These two verses clear it up for me without any ambiguity & therefore I have put it to rest. Others may still want to wrestle with the "problem" of simple & compound interest. I find no need to. Any who feel that this does not adequately demonstrate the Al Riba cannot be defined as compound interest only should bring forward there proof.
As for the definition of riba, I have presented my view. Those who see it as inadequate or non quranic again should bring their proof. I am always willing to change my understanding of any concept in light of quranic proof.
Imraan
-
Salaam Wakas,
you seem to be a passionate advocate of usury, I have little problem with this, the majority of human beings hold very similar views to yours, to confuse the issue with personal confused views as expressed within your posts on Riba, or usury as it is understood in English, puzzles me, you dismiss things on the shallowest of excuses to continue to subjugate those around you in the criminal activities of the world of usury we suffer from today, justifying the systems of corruption destroying all freedoms, but of course as you say 'no intelligent person can conclude anything from what either has written', with such a powerful intelligence, as you believe yourself to be, it is even harder to see why this would be the case.
Please use the Qur'an to prove anything I say to be wrong, you should reflect on the results of the crimes of usury, it may open your eyes to its true nature.
-
peace 1LNF,
I read your post several times, and I still have no clue what you put to rest. It is possible I am missing something. If you can try and explain it to me again more clearly I will read it. If any other forum member understands what you said, perhaps they can help explain it to me.
peace AN,
I am not an advocate of usury. Any member who has been here for a while and actually read my posts will know my dislike of fiat currency, banking system etc. I follow an evidence based approach, so if someone makes a post and presents no Quranic references whatsoever, then I wonder "hmm, why no references?" and will often point it out to them.
Also, please refrain from your personal attacks upon me without evidence. I dont mind such things, but as long it has actual evidence referenced.As I said clearly in my post, you and/or 1LNF may be right, but with the info presented, no intelligent reader can conclude anything. Of course, this is not to say you intended for the reader to conclude, you just may have been throwing something out there for consideration. No harm in that, but no Quranic references at all? Very little appeal to me.
-
Salaam Wakas,
I am not attacking you, I am reflecting only what you have presented, but reference
To Allah belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, and Allah is the only Protector.
2 255 - 2284 - 3109 - 3129 - 3189 - 4126 - 4131 - 4170 - 4172 - 517 - 518 - 5120 - 612 - 7128 Etc.The concept of Allodial earth is a strong and continuous concept throughout the Qur'an, this concept has been established in the past in a few locations, but is lost to the world at present, you should read Allodial Earth http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/
Usury is the premeditated theft of the fruits of somebody else's labour, a simple concept but difficult to understand without first understanding the concept of ownership, please read the linked essay and let me know, I do not wish to appear to insult you, I am sorry if this was the impression I gave.
-
Salaam Wakas,
it seems from your reply it would be a waste of my time, (time I value and do not wish to squander), or that of anyone else to attempt to present the concepts of the Qur'an expressed through reason, you refuse to understand concepts which allow practical implementation through reason, and wish for fixed edicts to direct you, as all contrived religions supply, from your desire to refuse reason and only accept specific edicts, you should perhaps return to hadith for you reference.
I will not continue to waste my time in further discussion on riba with you, it seems you refuse to understand or accept very basic Qur'anic models, so there is not point.
-
Dear Wakas, Riba linguistically means excessive gains in a business transection. Please, consider reading following link from Lane to undestand the concept.
Nur, has already explained the concept of ownership with referance. Here are just few more from AlKitab
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000189.pdf
517
5331
773
And for humans is only, what they strive for. Neither more nor less. Here is the referance.5339
Then questions to every one should be. How does one claim the ownerships of lands and countries? How does one claims ownership of resources of land that belongs to Rubb? How do you justify 100s and 1000s % profits in business transections? This is despite praying several times to Rubb.
Badar
-
Riba linguistically means excessive gains in a business transection.
Define 'excessive' - it's a vague term (especially when it comes to business transactions).
What many people miss/ignore is that 'riba' is in direct contrast to charity.
2270 Whatever you spend out of your monies, or whatever you pledge as a promise, certainly, God knows it. The wicked have no supporters.
2271 If you declare your charity, then it is acceptable; but if you conceal it and give it to the poor, then that is better for you. It depreciates some of your sins; and God is Ever-aware of all that you do.
2272 You are not responsible for their guidance, but it is God who will guide whomever He wishes. Whatever you spend out of goodness is for yourselves. Anything you spend should be in seeking God's presence. Whatever you spend out of goodness will be retuned to you, and you will not be wronged.
2273 As for the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and cannot leave the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their abstention; you know them by their marks, they do not ask the people repeatedly. What you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it.
2274 Those who spend their money in the night and in the day, secretly and openly, they will have their reward at their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2275 Those who consume usury (riba), do not rise (la ribala) except as the one who is being beaten by the devil out of direct touch. That is because they have said, "Trade is like usury (riba)." Indeed God has made trade lawful, yet He has forbidden usury (riba). Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the fire, in it they will abide eternally.
From this verse alone we know that riba has nothing to do with trade. Your definition above is wrong, based on this verse.
2276 God wipes out the usury. God does not like any ingrate sinner.
2277 Those who acknowledge and do the reforms, and observe the Contact prayer, and contribute towards betterment, they will have their rewards at their Lord and there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
2278 O you who acknowledge, be conscientious of God and give up what is left of the usury if you are those who have acknowledged.
'give up what is left of the usury' implies that it is some kind of interest imposed on someone - it has nothing to do with business transactions/trade. See 2275
2279 If you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger. However, if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.
2280 If the person is facing insolvency, then you shall wait until he becomes able. If you relinquish it as a charity it is better for you if you knew.
It becomes clear from these verses that 'riba' is in direct contrast to charity. Imposing interest on loans lent to the needy is 'riba'. Instead of this bad deed, we should give it away as charity to the needy, so the dont have to go through the trouble of paying back the debt that he/she has, as it would be extremely difficult or even impossible.
Interest on business loans and from banks to business people or medium-income to high-income people is not riba, because no one is being exploited and no one has a hard time to pay back the debt. Saying that it is 'high interest' or 'excessive return on busniess loans' is very vague/not clear at all and reflects a personal opinion. The definition that I gave with evidence from the Quran (especially with the using of context) is far more universally applicable and doesnt leave room for guess-work or conjecturing.
-
Salaam progressive1993,
you have ignored everything expressed and continued to promote usury, it is a heavy price we all pay for the views you propagate, you view the subject in isolation, to convince a Muslim of your views, against the centuries of example humanity has suffered, and now at the height of the usury system to defend the indefensible, it is not difficult to grasp, you must be an advocate of the usury system, I doubt any Muslim would take your promotions of usury seriously.
Examine the past to understand the future you wish to establish, the usury system is a criminal fraud, it is on the verge of collapse, this can not be escaped.
-
you have ignored everything expressed
So I have to adopt your view? Interesting...
and continued to promote usury
This is your personal opinion and also a lie. Can you not stand someone having a different opinion than yours?
it is a heavy price we all pay for the views you propagate, you view the subject in isolation, to convince a Muslim of your views, against the centuries of example humanity has suffered, and now at the height of the usury system to defend the indefensible, it is not difficult to grasp, you must be an advocate of the usury system, I doubt any Muslim would take your promotions of usury seriously.
rotfl
Examine the past to understand the future you wish to establish, the usury system is a criminal fraud, it is on the verge of collapse, this can not be escaped.
Read Quranic verses in context, and most importantly, respect other peoples' views.
Also, I want to point out a very imporant thing that makes your whole point invalid you did not provide ONE SINGLE VERSE from the Quran... that's pretty weak. As Wakas has said
Let us know when you return to citing actual evidence and the use of logic.
As I said clearly in my post, you and/or 1LNF may be right, but with the info presented, no intelligent reader can conclude anything. Of course, this is not to say you intended for the reader to conclude, you just may have been throwing something out there for consideration. No harm in that, but no Quranic references at all? Very little appeal to me.
I suggest not having preconceptions and reading what I posted with an open mind, instead of posting your personal opinion (which it is, due to no citing of Quranic evidence).
4724 Do they not study the Quran? Or are there locks on their minds?
4726 That is because they said to those who hated what God had sent down "We will obey you in certain matters." God knows their secrets.
6119 ...Many misguide with their personal opinion without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
Peace
-
Peace Wakas
peace 1LNF,
I read your post several times, and I still have no clue what you put to rest. It is possible I am missing something. If you can try and explain it to me again more clearly I will read it. If any other forum member understands what you said, perhaps they can help explain it to me.
As I said clearly in my post, you and/or 1LNF may be right, but with the info presented, no intelligent reader can conclude anything. Of course, this is not to say you intended for the reader to conclude, you just may have been throwing something out there for consideration. No harm in that, but no Quranic references at all? Very little appeal to me.
Let me try this again.
What I intended to put to rest was the concept the Al Riba refers only to compound interest. ( Note here that there is no attempt to define riba here. It is a challenge to those who have already defined it as compounded interest).
Now in 2275 we find that Al Riba is foorbidden. Can we agree on that?
In 3130, it is said that we must not devour Al Riba compounded. Does this then mean we must not devour compounded compounded interest? This does not make sense. Therefore I don't see how Al Riba can be defined as compounded anything.
I'm not sure if this clarifies my point at all.
Imraan
-
Dear Progressive you are resposible to define excessive for yourself, not me. Because only you know what physical efforts you have put in any business or for that mater in any transection. If you are unable evaluate it, please remember this, that your Rubb and my Rubb neither errors nor sleeps.
Badar
-
Dear Progressive you are resposible to define excessive for yourself, not me.
Wasn't it you who brought the "'excessive' gains in business transcations" issue up?
Your arguement "linguistically, 'riba' means..."
My arguement "if we look at the context in which 'riba' is used in the Quran and analyze the verses carefully, we find that..."Peace
-
