What type of Riba is prohibited ?
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Peace Abdun Nur
Salaam,
This is my final post on Riba in this thread, as there seems to be a strange intentional perversion of reason been expressed within it, meaning when the correct model is presented an intentionally confusing follows.
Usury does not require you to establish its meaning, it has a well established and well documented definition, it is only those wishing to trade usuriously and justify their actions to those around them that wish to re-define it.
It would not really matter if you did re-define the definition to your ends, as the act and result would remain apparent, so its true definition can not be altered, as it has a physical reality.
And as I have presented an example of that reality previously in the tread, people can decide for themselves, usury has been practiced for thousands of years in an evolving form.
The best definition is
?The premeditated theft of the fruits of someone else?s labour.?
This would then mean every form of taxation, would be Riba.
Every form of long term renting would be Riba.
Every interest baring loan would be Riba.
Every form of gambling, stock market, futures market, pensions market, bonds, would be Riba.
Even the fiat money we all use every day is a form of usury.We exist in a usury (Riba) system, it would be impossible to have an Islamic system, which is detailed on servantofthelight.com in the essay, ?Qur?anic Caliphate.?, in conjunction or in competition with the existing system, they are mutually exclusive.
While I agree with your definitions of riba for the most part, as I stated in my PM to you, quranic proof must be brought for any contention on this forum. Your statement that usury does not need to be defined may be fair enough. However, the term riba needs to be defined, especially by you since you claim (correctly in my opinion that most translations out there are not to be trusted). How can we then take your word that riba = usury when you haven't presented it within the quranic context. If it is your intention to present your views based on your thought process without giving the quran its due regard as the ultimate deciding factor, please make it known to this forum so that those of us who accept the quran as the ultimate deciding factor can choose whether or not to continue responding with the expectancy of quranic proof.
I, for one cannot accept that a lack of quranic quotes is due to the inadequacy of translations out there because if you find the translations inadequate, you must have researched them & come to your own conclusion of what each verse means. If you have done this, then you should be able to quote what the correct interpretation of the relevant verse is in your opinion. If you haven't done this, then your claim that existing translations are inadequate is baseless since you haven't done the due dilligence that the quran requires of bringing your proof if you are truthful.
You also make assumptions & generalisations about people by falsely representing their views while you are unaware of what their views actually are. I think that you will find many people with a view similar to yours on this forum (including people whom you have accused of taking the opposing view to yours).
Once again, I would like to repeat that I agree with what you are trying to achieve & with many of the understandings you hold conceptually. The quranic basis for some of of your viewpoints do exist, but a refusal to present them on your part doesn't make sense to me.
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
I understand that your are defining here in terms of currency that is not fiat. However, when looking at the aspect of bay'a & its root derivatives, I have found, as I mentioned earlier, that there seems to be a correlation between bay'a & an exchange of one thing for a different thing, not noe thing for more of the same thing over a period of time. In other words there are two items involved in such a transaction (commercial or otherwise). When looking at riba & its root derivatives, I have found that there seems to be a correlation between riba & an increase in the subject under discussion in the context. In other words there is only one item involved in such a transaction (commercial or otherwise).
Yes, if there are differences, then this needs to be studied and may be a fruitful avenue to explore.
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Peace AN,
The best definition is
The premeditated theft of the fruits of someone elses labour.Quranic evidence, please.
This would then mean every form of taxation, would be Riba.
What about the 20% spoils of war?
I would like to comment on the following again
stock market, futures market, pensions market, bonds, would be Riba.
- Dealing in a stock market is called 'trading'
- Dealers, who buy and sell in a stock market are called 'traders'.
- In a stock market one trades.
- What is the difference between trading in a stock market and the following example
I buy I pen for $1. Three weeks later I sell it for $1.20. What is the difference between this and trading in a stock market. In case you dont know how trading in a stock market works, I will give you an example
I buy a stock for $15. I wait for 3 weeks, and then I sell it for $20. Please tell me what the difference between this and the example with the pen is.
2275 Those who consume usury, do not rise except as the one who is being beaten by the devil out of direct touch. That is because they have said, "Trade is like usury." Indeed God has made trade lawful, yet He has forbidden usury. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the fire, in it they will abide eternally.
2276 God wipes out the usury and grants growth to the charities. God does not like any ingrate sinner.
Again, riba is in direct contrast with charity. I guess you will disregard this.
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Peace Wakas
peace Imraan,
Yes, if there are differences, then this needs to be studied and may be a fruitful avenue to explore.
I will try to post some of my investigations on these two words after the weekend. I will post some of the conclusions I drew as well as some of the possible shortcomings in my theory that I haven't quite resolved yet.
I hope that we can develop a better understanding of the terms through this.
Imraan
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Salaam Recluse,
the modern banking system is a criminal cabal, they print the fiat (meaning valueless) money for the cost of printing, (or even worse simply a computer entry) and lend it at interest in exchange for your physical efforts, this means every currency is simply a certificate of a debt, as a government, business or individual has borrowed it, so over twenty year for every certificate they lend out they get four in return, this has the effect of halving the value of the certificates every ten years, and doubling the volume in circulation every ten years, simply to maintain the fraud.
You should not use banks at all, if possible, you should save in physical metals, such as silver or gold, and take these in your own physical possession, this is the best way to avoid the inflation of the worthless paper system.
I would imagine from the posts on this subject, expressed previously, these Riba advocates will disagree, you must judge everything on its merits, you can be part of the problem or part of the solution, the choice is always open.
If you would like to read my views on Riba, you should visit my website.
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You should not use banks at all, if possible, you should save in physical metals, such as silver or gold, and take these in your own physical possession, this is the best way to avoid the inflation of the worthless paper system.
Salam Abdun Nur,
Thank you for the explanation. As to saving in physical, such as silver or gold, and taking these in my own possession; I would be afraid of theft/burglary??
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Salaam Mazhar,
it is a very sad reflection from the level of intelligence expressed, I find the disease of religion infects the ability for so many to use reason, they take all thing literally for other but find excuses for themselves, don't become the first part of 'many religious leaders and preachers take the people's money illicitly, and repel from the path of Allah.' while you apply the second part out of context.
To hoard - store a supply of something to collect and store, often secretly, large amounts of things such as food or money for future use.
To save - conserve something to avoid wasting something or using something unnecessarily.
Can you see the difference between the two?
I assume from you comment you exist from day to day and every single penny you have beyond this daily existence is given to the service of Allah? Or are you simply telling others to exist in this manor, so in effect saying, do as I say, not as I do?
Salaam Recluse,
the bankers are the greatest thieves ever known, it would be possible to rent a safty depoit box, or buy a strong safe that you could bolt down in a hidden place, but unfortunately these criminal parasite bankers are going to make life harder and harder, how we deal with it is the question.
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Selam Recluse,
Would it be allowed to accept interest from the bank to make up for the loss of value due to inflation? Suppose the inflation in a country is 2%. In that case it would make sense to receive 2% interest?
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/unorthodox.htm#USURY
Also, perhaps you should ask AbdunNur for evidence from the Quran that supports his view, before (inclining to) accept/accepting it.
Peace
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Salaam Mazhar,
it is a very sad reflection from the level of intelligence expressed, I find the disease of religion infects the ability for so many to use reason, they take all thing literally for other but find excuses for themselves, don't become the first part of 'many religious leaders and preachers take the people's money illicitly, and repel from the path of Allah.' while you apply the second part out of context.
To hoard - store a supply of something to collect and store, often secretly, large amounts of things such as food or money for future use.
To save - conserve something to avoid wasting something or using something unnecessarily.
Can you see the difference between the two?
I assume from you comment you exist from day to day and every single penny you have beyond this daily existence is given to the service of Allah? Or are you simply telling others to exist in this manor, so in effect saying, do as I say, not as I do?
Salaam Recluse,
the bankers are the greatest thieves ever known, it would be possible to rent a safty depoit box, or buy a strong safe that you could bolt down in a hidden place, but unfortunately these criminal parasite bankers are going to make life harder and harder, how we deal with it is the question.
Dear what I quoted was with reference to a specific quote. Perhaps Economics is not your subject. Gold and Silver has always been and shall remain for ever the primary and basic source and consideration of wealth. The strength on the back of paper/metal currency is Gold and Silver not diamonds and food grains. The basic concept and the point highlighted by the Qur'aan is to let the basic wealth remain rotating, invested and not keep them piled up in the manner as if you worship it.
Conjunction Waw has meanings when it has something before and after it. The later part is for every one who does that act.
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Salaam Mazhar,
you say, 'Perhaps Economics is not your subject.', quiet evidently it isn't yours.
You say, 'Gold and Silver has always been and shall remain for ever the primary and basic source and consideration of wealth.', this used to be the case, but you'll find with a tiny amount of investigation, fait money is now the wealth of the world, perceived at least, and with a little more investigation you'll discover fiat currencies are given value through the state, they are in reality worth nothing more than perceived value.
So when you say, 'The strength on the back of paper/metal currency is Gold and Silver not diamonds and food grains.', you'll discover you are wrong.
As I have stated before, it is impossible to establish an Islamic economic model within a usury system, as they are mutually exclusive, while what you say next, 'The basic concept and the point highlighted by the Qur'an is to let the basic wealth remain rotating, invested and not keep them piled up in the manner as if you worship it.', is quiet correct, however within a usury system this is made an impossible task, as I asked you previously, do you surrender every remaining penny after satisfying you daily needs, no, this guidance does not restrict personal saving of your labour, but hoarding to the detriment of society.
I?m confident nothing I will write could change anything you believe, but it may help others.
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You say, 'Gold and Silver has always been and shall remain for ever the primary and basic source and consideration of wealth.', this used to be the case, but you'll find with a tiny amount of investigation, fait money is now the wealth of the world, perceived at least, and with a little more investigation you'll discover fiat currencies are given value through the state, they are in reality worth nothing more than perceived value.
On the back of currency is not Mazhara and Nur but the State is the guarantor. It is not something merely notionally perceived. It is hard cash, liquid wealth conveniently flowing everywhere. Not to accept day light realities pushed people in a delusionary world.
'The basic concept and the point highlighted by the Qur'an is to let the basic wealth remain rotating, invested and not keep them piled up in the manner as if you worship it.', is quiet correct, however within a usury system this is made an impossible task, as I asked you previously, do you surrender every remaining penny after satisfying you daily needs, no, this guidance does not restrict personal saving of your labour, but hoarding to the detriment of society.
Neither Grand Qur'aan has advised for doing such stupid things of surrendering every remaining penny after satisfying daily needs nor rational beings do like that. What they do is they keep their wealth circulating so that maximum advantage is shared by many with the same process. Pl study Root Nafq.
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Salaam Mazhar,
the state is not the guarantor, pray tell what will they provide if the currency crashes; as it has done in the past, in many nations?
Your ignorance of the economic system is quiet impressive, take the Bank of England, it was the first example of the modern incarnation of the banking system, it is a private company, it prints money for the cost of printing and lends it at interest to the government, these notes were originally representative paper notes, they represented silver, but even then they were based on a fractional reserve, but the modern note is fiat, it has no real value of any sort, if you take it to the bank of England all you will receive is another paper note of equal value.
You say I am suggesting such a stupid thing as surrendering every penny, please re-examine your previous posts, it was your suggestion that the Qur'an placed a blanket ban on saving your resources, not mine, in fact I was saying you were wrong.
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God wipes out the usury (riba) and grants growth (yurbee) to the charities (sadaqati). God does not like any ingrate evildoer. Those who acknowledge and do the reforms, and observe the salat, and contribute towards betterment, they will have their rewards at their Lord and there is no fear over them nor will they grieve. O you who acknowledge, be conscientious of God and give up what is left of the riba if you are those who have acknowledged. If you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger. However, if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (2176-180)
Charging interest on a loan given to a needy person is riba. One can redeem himself/herself by giving THE LOAN back as a CHARITY. Please note the mentioning of charity and giving up the loan as a charity, and the contrast of riba and charity in general. Also note that it says that riba is charged on people who are unable to pay back the money lent and the interest. Therefore, giving/donating the money is better than charging interest and insisting on getting the money back. Such a situation does not exist with loans given and interest charged on/to businesses or normal/high-income people, since they are in no need of charity and are able to pay the loan/interest back without any problems.
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Peace progressive
Charging interest on a loan given to a needy person is riba.
The problem that I find with this interpretation is that a needy person is entitled to sadaqaat, not a loan. Also my opinion of sadaqaat is a right that is due by those who have excess to those who are needy. I wouldn't call it charity because the connotation is far from the quranic definition in my opinion.
I was also wondering if anyone has looked at the English word "charity" & its origins. I haven't researched it but would really like to know if anyone has.
Imraan
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Peace progressive
The problem that I find with this interpretation is that a needy person is entitled to sadaqaat, not a loan. Also my opinion of sadaqaat is a right that is due by those who have excess to those who are needy. I wouldn't call it charity because the connotation is far from the quranic definition in my opinion.
I was also wondering if anyone has looked at the English word "charity" & its origins. I haven't researched it but would really like to know if anyone has.
Imraan
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_(virtue)
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Peace Imraan,
The problem that I find with this interpretation is that a needy person is entitled to sadaqaat, not a loan.
The needy person is indeed entitled to sadaqat. However, an ingrate harmer of people, as described in 2276 does not care about this. It is important to note the following from 2280
"If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew."
Let us say that you loan a wealthy person somd money because they want to make an investment of some sort, e.g. opening up a business or buying something new for his/her current business/firm. Then lets say that he/she has a breakeven after 1 week and can now pay back the money - is this the situation described in 2276-280 or even similar? Of course not. However, this situation would occur if, for example, I loan some money to a low-income person who is very short on money. If I charge interest on this person, it would severely harm him/her, hence this is riba and in such a situation we are asked to give back the loan as a charity.
Also keep in mind that sadaqat is contrasted with riba.
Also my opinion of sadaqaat is a right that is due by those who have excess to those who are needy. I wouldn't call it charity because the connotation is far from the quranic definition in my opinion.
I agree, considering 6141, however, "charity" is almost synonomous with what you are suggesting.
So we could interpret sadaqat as what you said, and we could interpret "riba" as "exploiting the needy", "doing the opposite of fulfilling the due right that the needy people have (i.e. the opposite of sadaqat)", "usury", etc.I was also wondering if anyone has looked at the English word "charity" & its origins. I haven't researched it but would really like to know if anyone has.
The following is from http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/charity
- generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless to devote one's life to charity.
- something given to a person or persons in need; alms She asked for work, not charity.
- a charitable act or work.
- a charitable fund, foundation, or institution He left his estate to a charity.
- benevolent feeling, esp. toward those in need or in disfavor She looked so poor that we fed her out of charity.
- leniency in judging others; forbearance She was inclined to view our selfish behavior with charity.
- Christian love; agape.
Origin
112575; ME charite < OF < L critt- (s. of crits), equiv. to cr(us) dear (akin to caress, cherish, Kama, whore ) + -itt- -ity
Related forms
charityless, adjectiveSynonyms
5. kindliness, consideration, humanity, benignity, sympathy.Antonyms
5. malevolence.-
Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
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Something given to help the needy; alms.
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An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
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Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.
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Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. See Synonyms at mercy.
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often Charity Christianity The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one's neighbors as objects of God's love.
Word Origin & History
charity
1137, "benevolence for the poor," from O.Fr. charite, from L. caritas (acc. caritatem) "costliness, esteem, affection" (in Vulgate often used as translation of Gk. agape "love" -- especially Christian love of fellow man -- perhaps to avoid the sexual suggestion of L. amor), from carus "dear, valued," from PIE *karo-, from base *ka- "to like, desire" (see whore). Vulgate also sometimes translated agape by L. dilectio, n. of action from diligere "to esteem highly, to love."
"Wyclif and the Rhemish version regularly rendered the Vulgate dilectio by 'love,' caritas by 'charity.' But the 16th c. Eng. versions from Tindale to 1611, while rendering agape sometimes 'love,' sometimes 'charity,' did not follow the dilectio and caritas of the Vulgate, but used 'love' more often (about 86 times), confining 'charity' to 26 passages in the Pauline and certain of the Catholic Epistles (not in I John), and the Apocalypse .... In the Revised Version 188 -
Salaam,
I will attempt one more time to explain Riba, as I said previously, the Islamic model and the usury model of the modern world are mutually exclusive.
To understand Riba (Usury), you first must understand ownership.
Many are confused as to what usury is, and what usury is not, but it is a very simple concept, only confused by one thing, the desire to gain from usury while wishing to remain a Muslim.
All the Earth is allodial (Cannot be owned as it belongs solely to Allah), as are the fruits of the Earth, for example if I plant a field of watermelons, the watermelons are the bounty of Allah, grown from the earth and out of the seed, and from the design of Allah, but the physical labour you invested in the planting of the seed, the preparing of the land, the harvesting and marketing of the watermelons, is what you have honestly earned and deserve in reward of your labour, so when you sell the watermelon, the watermelon itself is free, as it is the bounty of Allah, but the labour it took to reach its end user and consumer must be paid by the end user and consumer.
This is in contrast to usury, if I lent you a watermelon, and expect you to repay me two watermelons in return, I have laboured in the creation of the one watermelon, but I expect a second watermelon in return for no labour, I have extorted the fruits of your labour from you, because to create the second watermelon I must labour twice as much as you laboured in the creation of just one watermelon, and surrender that labour to you in reward for no effort on your part, this is usury.
Or if I demanded 10% of your crop in exchange for insuring it against loss, so I gambled you would have a good harvest, when the odds maybe only 1% of the time a crop is lost. This is a form of usury.
The Islamic model, protecting yourself from the hardship of a crop failure is simple. A group of farmers would join together, each committing a share of their crop into the collective pot, proportionate to the size of their holdings, only if a farm failed would any burden be extracted from the collective, otherwise the insurance would cost nothing. This loss burden sharing insurance could be linked across large group collectives of farmers, so reducing the burden through scale of any potential losses.
To sell a crop of watermelons at a discounted price before you have planted the seeds, and harvested, jumping straight to market, as is now commonly practiced through the futures market, is selling something you do not have, and may never have, you may only sell what you posses, to sell a potential is a form of usury, you are selling nothing now for the fruits of someone?s labour, for a price that if you deliver in the future would be for less than you have earned.
