4 witnesses can be 4 sources of circumstantial evidence? and another thing

Wakas

peace sister Samia,

Can you clarify how you are using "genetic test" here, as I dont quite follow what you're saying.

Also, can you clarify "allati" in 415, is it plural as in 3 or more women? Once we clarify the exact usage in the verses concerned, it should be easier to work out what is going on.

Samia

peace sister Samia,

Can you clarify how you are using "genetic test" here, as I dont quite follow what you're saying.

Also, can you clarify "allati" in 415, is it plural as in 3 or more women? Once we clarify the exact usage in the verses concerned, it should be easier to work out what is going on.

I was referring to your suggestion about genetic identification to know the father of the child to function as witness.That's why I suggested googling "chimera".

And yes,allaati is for more than two females (three and above).

Wakas

Ahh, sorry I should have clarified.

I was referring to translations and their notes, the one in question was Reformist Quran Translation, hence the abbreviation RQT. It was not my own words.

mmouhammad

And yes,allaati is for more than two females (three and above).

Salam to you all,

Just a quick input, Allati "" as used in verse 415 means whoever does Alfahisha of your women. It does not refer to 2, 3 or group of women doing Alfahisha together, however it does not negate that a woman does Alfahisha with another woman as well.

Alfahisha as it relates to the people of Loot is anal intercourse. In other verses however it is described as getting near Zina which means Foreplay, Oral and Anal Sex and it involves Heterosexual and homosexual.

On the other hand, Allazan "" in verse 416 refers to any two males doing Alfahisha in any form, foreplay, oral or anal.

Another thought, at the end verse 2431 And tell the believing women?..not to strike with their feet so to reveal what is hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers that you may succeed.

Strike with their feet " " in Arabic also mean work, thus this might be the instruction not to do striptease as in not to reveal their hidden beauty.

Samia

Salam to you all,

Just a quick input, Allati "" as used in verse 415 means whoever does Alfahisha of your women. It does not refer to 2, 3 or group of women doing Alfahisha together, however it does not negate that a woman does Alfahisha with another woman as well.

Alfahisha as it relates to the people of Loot is anal intercourse. In other verses however it is described as getting near Zina which means Foreplay, Oral and Anal Sex and it involves Heterosexual and homosexual.

On the other hand, Allazan "" in verse 416 refers to any two males doing Alfahisha in any form, foreplay, oral or anal.

Salaam mmouhammad, all

, if meant for two, could have been used in the dual ( ); similar to the usage of the dual generic masculine . This is what draws the attention. Also, the notion of different punishments based on gender for the same sin as Wakas questioned makes this understanding of yours problematic.

is for any two persons with at least one male; otherwise, how would you allude to a man and a woman with , or another demonstrative pronoun, and what would it be?

mmouhammad

peace all,

I came across the following today, thought some may find it interesting. I have highlighted the part I am referring to in bold

The witness mentioned in 1226-27 is not considered a witness because he was present during the alleged incident. That witness did not say, "I saw with my eyes." The human witness mentioned in that story is proposing the testimony of circumstantial evidence, and logical conclusions based on both inductive and deductive reasoning. In other words, the Quran accepts the testimony of reliable circumstantial evidence just as it accepts the testimony of a reliable eyewitness.

Thoughts?

Salam,

In Arabic we use the word sh'heed "" and the plural shoh'daa "" for actual eye witness and eye witnesses respectively. And we use the word shahid "" and the plural shahideen "" when giving testimony based on both inductive and deductive reasoning.

True the Quran uses and accept both type of testimony however the Quran specifies exactly where and how each type is used.

The following verses call for eye witnesses and not evidence, read the 1st 20 verses of chapter 24 to understand the adverse affect of using inductive and deductive reasoning and the door it opens for wrong doers.

2282 ?. and bring two witnesses "" from amongst your men; if there are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes occupied, then the one can reminds the other. And let the witnesses "" not refuse to come if they are called?.

244 And those who accuse the protected women and they do not bring forth four witnesses " ", then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
246 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses ""except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that they are being truthful.
2413 If only they had brought four witnesses "" to it. If they did not have the witnesses " ", then these with God are the liars.

The following verses use the inductive and deductive reasoning to make logical conclusion. However in the story in chapter 1225, 26, 27 & 28, the testimony was given immediately after the incident, at the incident site and after hearing the claims of both persons. Note that the words used in the accusations from both indicated physical altercation and directed the witness to the evidence hence the evidence is the eye witness.

Yes inductive and deductive reasoning are acceptable but only when leading to valid and verifiable evidence. For example if a man got vasectomy married a woman who got pregnant after few months, he can easily prove her adultery as the facts amount to actual eye witness level, it can not be disputed.

353 ?Our Lord, we believe in what You have sent down, and followed the messenger, so record us with those who bear witness.? ""
583 And if they hear what was sent down to the messenger you see their eyes flooding with tears, for what they have known as the truth, they say ?Our Lord, we believe, so record us with the witnesses.? ""

1225 And as they rushed towards the door, she tore his shirt from behind; and they found her master at the door. She said ?What is the punishment of he who wanted to molest your family? Is it not that he be jailed or punished painfully??
1226 He said ?She is the one who seduced me from myself,? and a witness "" from her family gave testimony ?If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar.?
1227 ?And if his shirt is torn from behind, then she is lying, and he is truthful.?
1228 So when he saw that his shirt was torn from behind, he said ?This is from your female scheming, your female scheming is indeed great!?

mmouhammad

Salaam mmouhammad, all

, if meant for two, could have been used in the dual ( ); similar to the usage of the dual generic masculine . This is what draws the attention. Also, the notion of different punishments based on gender for the same sin as Wakas questioned makes this understanding of yours problematic.

is for any two persons with at least one male; otherwise, how would you allude to a man and a woman with , or another demonstrative pronoun, and what would it be?

Salam Samia and all,

The directives in both verses 415 & 416 are given to the believers' society "men and women".
Accordingly read with me " " means all the women who commit fahisha of your women also means any woman who commits fahisha of your women or whoever commits fahisha of your women. As I said before there is no reference to 2 women committing fahisha together or to group of women committing fahisha together or as prostitution ring. So a woman might commit fahisha with another woman or women, a man or men, or even a mix. The directive does not specify the gender or the number with which a woman commits fahisha.

The fahisha includes illegal heterosexual intercourse as well as it is unlike the Zina, is done secretly. They will escape public punishment but the God is aware. The reason of not mentioning a punishment for the male partner is because the fahisha was committed in secret and it is not wise to make it public and cause more damage. In fact it must be dealt with in a hush way.

Fahisha scenarios dealt with in verse 415 are woman ? woman and woman ? man regardless of numbers and includes all types of sexual activities.

Since illegal heterosexual intercourse is accounted for and the punishment is clearly defined if proven for the woman "the man or others may escape it"; the only possibility left out is dealt with in next verse 416

Allazan refers to only males also because of the identifier of your women " " used in the preceding verse and the identifier of you "" used with Allazan "" and talking about same subject "" and the third and only possibility left of fahisha.

The different punishment when judging or punishing the woman who is accused of haveing committed fahisha, there must be 4 witnesses; here The God did not ask for shoh'daa "", instead The God used another term istashido " " which requires investigation and hard work "the fahisha was not public" and the condition that the four must give their testimony before she can be found guilty. However if the four gave testimony then the woman's fahisha is known and amounts to limited public crime.

Notice with Allazan "" no witness no judgment and the punishment is immediate, any thing but death.

415
416

I hope I was able to clarify my reading, let us continue the discussion so we can improve our understanding.

Mahmoud Mouhammad

Samia

Salaam mmouhammad, all

Allazan refers to only males also because of the identifier of your women " " used in the preceding verse and the identifier of you "" used with Allazan "" and talking about same subject "" and the third and only possibility left of fahisha

This is the whole point

Why speaking of females in the plural while speaking of males in the dual?
Why stating a punishment to males different to that of females for the same sin?

Also about this identifier "minkum amongst you" What's the gender of "you"?
You say

The directives in both verses 415 & 416 are given to the believers' society "men and women".

Therefore "allthaani" does not have to be only males.

The fahisha includes illegal heterosexual intercourse as well as it is unlike the Zina, is done secretly. They will escape public punishment but the God is aware. The reason of not mentioning a punishment for the male partner is because the fahisha was committed in secret and it is not wise to make it public and cause more damage. In fact it must be dealt with in a hush way.Since illegal heterosexual intercourse is accounted for and the punishment is clearly defined if proven for the woman "the man or others may escape it"; the only possibility left out is dealt with in next verse 416

Just have a look at the underlined sentences and tell me

If it's committed in secret, how would the community know?
What's this "hush way"?
Why would the man, or others, escape it and not the woman?

The different punishment when judging or punishing the woman who is accused of haveing committed fahisha, there must be 4 witnesses; here The God did not ask for shoh'daa "", instead The God used another term istashido " " which requires investigation and hard work "the fahisha was not public" and the condition that the four must give their testimony before she can be found guilty. However if the four gave testimony then the woman's fahisha is known and amounts to limited public crime.

You can not deduce from a verb the kind of testimony, unless each kind has a different verb, which is not the case. "istash-hiduu" means let four persons testify; how, you cannot tell from the verb whethet it's eye witnessing or evidence. In fact, giving an exact number means only to testify as eye witnesses. Other evidnce, when called for, is not mentioned; otherwise tell me what other evidence is required for other crimes such as murder and theft, where the punishment is also prescribed.

Notice with Allazan "" no witness no judgment and the punishment is immediate, any thing but death.

And you are satisfied that this is divine justice?!!!
Actually there's no need to repeat the witnessing part. Just because there are different numbers for these two verses does not mean they are not continous.

I still think that your understanding, which is i line with the prevalent understanding, does not answer the good questions raised by Wakas, and definitely others.

Tlepsh

Peace Wakas and all,

In my opinion verse 4.16 is a continuation of verse 4.15. Both verses form one statement and it is about fahisha.

In 415 The women who commit fahisha are 3 or more women (allati) and they are from your women (min nisaikum). It is assured that they are from our women.

In 4.16 Fahisha is committed by two person (Allazani) from among you. (not from among your men) not (min rijalikum) or not (min nisaikum) but it is (minkum).

So this means Allazani are two persons either (two men) or (one man and one woman). If it were only two men then the word (min rijalikum) would be used instead of (minkum).

The punishment in verse 4.16 is the same punishment explained in verse 4.15. The punishment is the same punishment for the same wrong deed for men and women.

Supernaut

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace,

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective, and I've never even considered this concept at all... Even though I don't think this is the main factor of that Qur'aanic passage, it could definately be a situation that could arise that could be applicable to it, and this is certainly something to look into. Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...

Peace,

Ahmad

Samia

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"? Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients? And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?

Supernaut

Peace all,

Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective,

Thanks

Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...

You?re welcome and it?s not an original opinion.

And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"?

It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.

Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients?

Well, for a business to survive ? and make no mistake, sex is big business ? there has to be consumers.

And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?

There will always be perverts. Perverts are here to stay, but the muslim community will not have to abide them if prostitutes who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction will be kept under protective custody till the god makes it alright for them to leave their homes or creates job opportunities for them, etc.

Samia

Peace all,

It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.

Why, then is it is the dual while "prostitutes" are in the plural?

Well, for a business to survive and make no mistake, sex is big business there has to be consumers.

And when the goods are not available, they will seek them somewhere else paedophilia, rape...
The problem of prostitution cannot be solved by punishing prostitutes or simply keeping them off the street. They are not the only "culprits", and may even be the victims.

Tlepsh

Peace All,

415 The women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

4.16 The two who comit it from amongst you, than you shall punish both of them. If they repend and amend, than leave them alone. God is redeemer, compassionate.

4.17 God?s acceptance and repentance is only for those who commit evil once (&#1614 out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God. God is knowledgeable, wise.

4.18 There will be no repentance for those who commit evil repeatedly (&#1616 until death comes upon one of them, then he says, ?I repent now!? Nor there will be repentance for those who die while they are ingrates. To those We have prepared a painful retribution.

I think we have to read the whole passage from verse 4.15 to 4.18 to understand what is meant more correctly.

My opinion is as follows

Here in these verses the topic is lewdness done in the society by a group of people.
Any one who does this lewdness in the society man or woman shall be kept in houses (prison) for an unlimited time if four persons bear withnesses over them.
Any one (man or woman) commited lewdness out of ignorance and repent shall be forgiven.
The ones who insist on lewdness shall not be forgiven and stay in prison.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Tlepsh,

My opinion is as follows

Here in these verses the topic is lewdness done in the society by a group of people.
Any one who does this lewdness in the society man or woman shall be kept in houses (prison) for an unlimited time if four persons bear withnesses over them.
Any one (man or woman) commited lewdness out of ignorance and repent shall be forgiven.
The ones who insist on lewdness shall not be forgiven and stay in prison.

This is a good breakdown of the matter, but I think the main group targeted in this passage is women. For one thing, in Arab culture, women are placed in the care of their husbands. Therefore, if they were to commit lewdness, they could be confined in their houses, in the care of their husbands, to prevent them from committing further wrongdoing. It has to be noted that these people (women) will be confined to their homes, not in a jail or prison. Perhaps the place is not intended to be a type of confinement, but maybe it's a protection for them... I don't really see how a person can be ignorantly or accidentally "lewd", since this is a personal choice to commit an action. So, I'll have to look more into this. For now, though, I think you have the best explanation for this passage. G-d knows best.

Peace,

Ahmad

mmouhammad

Salaam mmouhammad, all

Many comments

Salam Samia, all

Thank you for your comments; it is such comments that create awareness of other possible meanings.

From the Reading we all understand that there are more than one type of Fahisha and each Fahisha is punishable differently and according to who are involved and in what circumstances.

I understood the following thus far, please read with me and comment if you will.

The Zina "" and its punishment are discussed in verse 242. This verse, verse 243 and verse 424 require more discussions though.

The Fahisha, which now I think is prostitution type and its punishment are discussed in verse 415; even though, the plural term allati is used, it indicates individual women. This type of usage is supported in Arabic and can be understood from the sequence of the sentence. In verse 415 " " is an indication of the singular meaning of allati. For example would 4 from amongst you be sufficient to attest against 100, 1000 or 100000 since the plural indicates 3 or more?

Prostitution might not be as apparent or known, as being committed by individual woman; however doubts or rumors might be circulated hence the usage of Istashidoo.
" "

Quarantine as a punishment in verse 415 is in line with this type of Fahisha and we know the importance of it at present time as it relates to sexually communicable diseases.

The Fahisha discussed in verse 416 appears to be another type and is different from the ones discussed above by means of different punishment and also appears to be applicable to different offense and offenders.
The directives in Chapter 4 are given to all People "males and females" as it starts " " hence the term "from amongst you " when used is referring to the people, males and females. " "

Accordingly, when reading verse 416, I understand that "and the two who committed it from amongst you " references any two of the people males and females in any combination such as 2 females, 2 males or 2 a male and a female. Therefore this type of Fahisha includes both Heterosexuals and Homosexuals. The dual form Allazan "" indicates that the Fahisha is done between 2 people only, monogamy.

The punishment in verse 416 "" is an open form punishment, and maybe anything except death and must stop if the offenders repent.

mmouhammad

Peace Tlepsh,

This is a good breakdown of the matter, but I think the main group targeted in this passage is women. For one thing, in Arab culture, women are placed in the care of their husbands. Therefore, if they were to commit lewdness, they could be confined in their houses, in the care of their husbands, to prevent them from committing further wrongdoing. It has to be noted that these people (women) will be confined to their homes, not in a jail or prison. Perhaps the place is not intended to be a type of confinement, but maybe it's a protection for them... I don't really see how a person can be ignorantly or accidentally "lewd", since this is a personal choice to commit an action. So, I'll have to look more into this. For now, though, I think you have the best explanation for this passage. G-d knows best.

Peace,

Ahmad

Salam Ahmad, all

I understand verse 415 like many other verses talks about the health of the society and how to maintain it.
The directives are given to the People "Males and Female", so I would read the women in verse 415 as women from amongst you people and has nothing to do with husbands or wives.

The society in whatever form it exists is responsible to uphold and maintain God's system. From my understanding, the punishment system in the Reading is flexible and moves between maximum and minimum limits " " like in verse 415 until death terminates their lives or God makes for them a way out.

Who is to say that society's rehabilitation centers "confinement houses, quarantine and health care", that take in and educate these women about their wrong doings, train and prepare them to better fit in labour market, thus giving them more opportunities to fit well in their communities; is not God's way out for them.

As prevention measure, good societies would take into consideration the less fortunate women in their communities and establish centers that will provide enough and consistent help to at least prevent prostitution out of need.

Wakas

peace all,

NB AQ = Al Quran

Thanks for sharing your inputs. I think we are making progress due to clarifying of the translation, however I have a few questions

Accordingly, when reading verse 416, I understand that "and the two who committed it from amongst you " references any two of the people males and females in any combination such as 2 females, 2 males or 2 a male and a female. Therefore this type of Fahisha includes both Heterosexuals and Homosexuals.

I thought we had established that the usage of "allazani" in 416 indicates at least one male? What is correct according to grammar/AQ?

In AQ, when it is addressing us, or say the believers, does it ever use a phrase equivalent to "And as for your men"? If so, can anyone cite some examples?

Are there other examples of difference in punishment between males and females in AQ? I assume since no-one has mentioned any, there is none, anyone know?

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

Roshan

Also, it is commonly thought that the punishment for male homosexuality lewdness and female homosexuality lewdness is different but the word used in 416 is "faathoohuma / annoy/hurt / suffer what is disagreeable" (root alif-dhal/thal-ya) which could encompass detainment as mentioned in 415, but could also be wider. Is this theoretically correct?

Almost every time when I study a verse or verses in more detail it's like I am reading a new Quran everyday! We really need to get a decent translation!

Peace

Annoying them in 416 is , IMO, in the way mentioned in 415 (the context of 416 is 415-16). And from what I understand of this verse, it is talking about 'homosexuality', or as God calls it lewdness between members of the same sex ( the term 'homosexuality' equates that perversion with sexual intercourse).

Like the punishment for fawnication, this punishment aims to instill in society that such behaviour is wrong. Very few engage in sex/same sex perversion in front of 4 people who would testify against them.

Roshan