4 witnesses can be 4 sources of circumstantial evidence? and another thing

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace,

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective, and I've never even considered this concept at all... Even though I don't think this is the main factor of that Qur'aanic passage, it could definately be a situation that could arise that could be applicable to it, and this is certainly something to look into. Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...

Peace,

Ahmad

Samia

I think "Keep them in their houses till they die or till the god finds another way" means that prostitutes who accept the great reading's jurisdiction should be kept under protective custody till it's safe for them to leave their homes.

And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"? Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients? And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?

Supernaut

Peace all,

Personally, I think this is a very interesting perspective,

Thanks

Thanks for the insight, and G-d knows best...

You?re welcome and it?s not an original opinion.

And what about their clients? Shouldn't they be punished, or are they their "witnesses"?

It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.

Do you believe that just because there are prostitutes there are clients?

Well, for a business to survive ? and make no mistake, sex is big business ? there has to be consumers.

And that keeping prostitutes off street will solve the problem of their clients and make the society perverts-free?

There will always be perverts. Perverts are here to stay, but the muslim community will not have to abide them if prostitutes who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction will be kept under protective custody till the god makes it alright for them to leave their homes or creates job opportunities for them, etc.

Samia

Peace all,

It could be that 416 applies to punters who willingly come under the great reading?s jurisdiction.

Why, then is it is the dual while "prostitutes" are in the plural?

Well, for a business to survive and make no mistake, sex is big business there has to be consumers.

And when the goods are not available, they will seek them somewhere else paedophilia, rape...
The problem of prostitution cannot be solved by punishing prostitutes or simply keeping them off the street. They are not the only "culprits", and may even be the victims.

Tlepsh

Peace All,

415 The women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

4.16 The two who comit it from amongst you, than you shall punish both of them. If they repend and amend, than leave them alone. God is redeemer, compassionate.

4.17 God?s acceptance and repentance is only for those who commit evil once (&#1614 out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God. God is knowledgeable, wise.

4.18 There will be no repentance for those who commit evil repeatedly (&#1616 until death comes upon one of them, then he says, ?I repent now!? Nor there will be repentance for those who die while they are ingrates. To those We have prepared a painful retribution.

I think we have to read the whole passage from verse 4.15 to 4.18 to understand what is meant more correctly.

My opinion is as follows

Here in these verses the topic is lewdness done in the society by a group of people.
Any one who does this lewdness in the society man or woman shall be kept in houses (prison) for an unlimited time if four persons bear withnesses over them.
Any one (man or woman) commited lewdness out of ignorance and repent shall be forgiven.
The ones who insist on lewdness shall not be forgiven and stay in prison.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Tlepsh,

My opinion is as follows

Here in these verses the topic is lewdness done in the society by a group of people.
Any one who does this lewdness in the society man or woman shall be kept in houses (prison) for an unlimited time if four persons bear withnesses over them.
Any one (man or woman) commited lewdness out of ignorance and repent shall be forgiven.
The ones who insist on lewdness shall not be forgiven and stay in prison.

This is a good breakdown of the matter, but I think the main group targeted in this passage is women. For one thing, in Arab culture, women are placed in the care of their husbands. Therefore, if they were to commit lewdness, they could be confined in their houses, in the care of their husbands, to prevent them from committing further wrongdoing. It has to be noted that these people (women) will be confined to their homes, not in a jail or prison. Perhaps the place is not intended to be a type of confinement, but maybe it's a protection for them... I don't really see how a person can be ignorantly or accidentally "lewd", since this is a personal choice to commit an action. So, I'll have to look more into this. For now, though, I think you have the best explanation for this passage. G-d knows best.

Peace,

Ahmad

mmouhammad

Salaam mmouhammad, all

Many comments

Salam Samia, all

Thank you for your comments; it is such comments that create awareness of other possible meanings.

From the Reading we all understand that there are more than one type of Fahisha and each Fahisha is punishable differently and according to who are involved and in what circumstances.

I understood the following thus far, please read with me and comment if you will.

The Zina "" and its punishment are discussed in verse 242. This verse, verse 243 and verse 424 require more discussions though.

The Fahisha, which now I think is prostitution type and its punishment are discussed in verse 415; even though, the plural term allati is used, it indicates individual women. This type of usage is supported in Arabic and can be understood from the sequence of the sentence. In verse 415 " " is an indication of the singular meaning of allati. For example would 4 from amongst you be sufficient to attest against 100, 1000 or 100000 since the plural indicates 3 or more?

Prostitution might not be as apparent or known, as being committed by individual woman; however doubts or rumors might be circulated hence the usage of Istashidoo.
" "

Quarantine as a punishment in verse 415 is in line with this type of Fahisha and we know the importance of it at present time as it relates to sexually communicable diseases.

The Fahisha discussed in verse 416 appears to be another type and is different from the ones discussed above by means of different punishment and also appears to be applicable to different offense and offenders.
The directives in Chapter 4 are given to all People "males and females" as it starts " " hence the term "from amongst you " when used is referring to the people, males and females. " "

Accordingly, when reading verse 416, I understand that "and the two who committed it from amongst you " references any two of the people males and females in any combination such as 2 females, 2 males or 2 a male and a female. Therefore this type of Fahisha includes both Heterosexuals and Homosexuals. The dual form Allazan "" indicates that the Fahisha is done between 2 people only, monogamy.

The punishment in verse 416 "" is an open form punishment, and maybe anything except death and must stop if the offenders repent.

mmouhammad

Peace Tlepsh,

This is a good breakdown of the matter, but I think the main group targeted in this passage is women. For one thing, in Arab culture, women are placed in the care of their husbands. Therefore, if they were to commit lewdness, they could be confined in their houses, in the care of their husbands, to prevent them from committing further wrongdoing. It has to be noted that these people (women) will be confined to their homes, not in a jail or prison. Perhaps the place is not intended to be a type of confinement, but maybe it's a protection for them... I don't really see how a person can be ignorantly or accidentally "lewd", since this is a personal choice to commit an action. So, I'll have to look more into this. For now, though, I think you have the best explanation for this passage. G-d knows best.

Peace,

Ahmad

Salam Ahmad, all

I understand verse 415 like many other verses talks about the health of the society and how to maintain it.
The directives are given to the People "Males and Female", so I would read the women in verse 415 as women from amongst you people and has nothing to do with husbands or wives.

The society in whatever form it exists is responsible to uphold and maintain God's system. From my understanding, the punishment system in the Reading is flexible and moves between maximum and minimum limits " " like in verse 415 until death terminates their lives or God makes for them a way out.

Who is to say that society's rehabilitation centers "confinement houses, quarantine and health care", that take in and educate these women about their wrong doings, train and prepare them to better fit in labour market, thus giving them more opportunities to fit well in their communities; is not God's way out for them.

As prevention measure, good societies would take into consideration the less fortunate women in their communities and establish centers that will provide enough and consistent help to at least prevent prostitution out of need.

Wakas

peace all,

NB AQ = Al Quran

Thanks for sharing your inputs. I think we are making progress due to clarifying of the translation, however I have a few questions

Accordingly, when reading verse 416, I understand that "and the two who committed it from amongst you " references any two of the people males and females in any combination such as 2 females, 2 males or 2 a male and a female. Therefore this type of Fahisha includes both Heterosexuals and Homosexuals.

I thought we had established that the usage of "allazani" in 416 indicates at least one male? What is correct according to grammar/AQ?

In AQ, when it is addressing us, or say the believers, does it ever use a phrase equivalent to "And as for your men"? If so, can anyone cite some examples?

Are there other examples of difference in punishment between males and females in AQ? I assume since no-one has mentioned any, there is none, anyone know?

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

Roshan

Also, it is commonly thought that the punishment for male homosexuality lewdness and female homosexuality lewdness is different but the word used in 416 is "faathoohuma / annoy/hurt / suffer what is disagreeable" (root alif-dhal/thal-ya) which could encompass detainment as mentioned in 415, but could also be wider. Is this theoretically correct?

Almost every time when I study a verse or verses in more detail it's like I am reading a new Quran everyday! We really need to get a decent translation!

Peace

Annoying them in 416 is , IMO, in the way mentioned in 415 (the context of 416 is 415-16). And from what I understand of this verse, it is talking about 'homosexuality', or as God calls it lewdness between members of the same sex ( the term 'homosexuality' equates that perversion with sexual intercourse).

Like the punishment for fawnication, this punishment aims to instill in society that such behaviour is wrong. Very few engage in sex/same sex perversion in front of 4 people who would testify against them.

Roshan

Tlepsh

peace all,

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

Peace Wakas and all,

Wallati is used in AQ in the following verses besides verse 4.15 And is always used to mean ?who? or ?whom? for females;

4.23 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters who are residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

4.34 The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great

4.127 And they seek a ruling regarding the women, Say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphan?s mothers whom you wish to marry, but have not given them what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.

12.50 And the King said ?Bring him to me.? So when the messenger came to him, he said ?Go back to your lord and ask him what was the matter regarding the women who cut their hands? My Lord is well aware of their scheming.?

24.60 And the women who are past child bearing and who do not seek to get married have no sin upon them if they put-off their garments, provided they are not adorned for beauty. And if they remain as they were, then it is better for them. God is Hearer, Knower.

33.50 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are still dependant. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

So probably we can translate 4.15 as follows

4.15 And any of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

Tlepsh

And may be it is better without the word "any"

4.15 And from your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.

Samia

peace all,
1)
I thought we had established that the usage of "allazani" in 416 indicates at least one male? What is correct according to grammar/AQ?

In AQ, when it is addressing us, or say the believers, does it ever use a phrase equivalent to "And as for your men"? If so, can anyone cite some examples?

Are there other examples of difference in punishment between males and females in AQ? I assume since no-one has mentioned any, there is none, anyone know?

415 and its use of the plural for women (i.e. 3 or more)
I think we may have taken this the wrong way, or maybe not, but let's see...
If we take it to mean 3 or more does that not imply that for 3 or more women, one must bring 4 witnesses upon the 3 or more women, which of course doesn't make sense. Throughout AQ it is 4 witnesses per person.
If it is indeed those of your women, is it possible to phrase 415 in such a way NOT using the plural but for it to still make sense and not be misunderstood? Can those who know Arabic help here?
Let me clarify this point if it said "And as for your woman (singular)" this could be misunderstood to mean the prophet's wife, and if he had more than one, which one would it be referring to? If it was addressed to believers and it said "And as for your woman", again, who is it referring to wife(which one?)/daughter/mother/sister/etc. Similarly, if it was the dual, I do not see how it could logically fit or make sense. Thus, the only option is to use the plural, hence the usage here.
Failing that, are there any other examples of usage of this phrasing in AQ that would shed some light on this usage?

Once these questions are clarified, things should become easier.

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Roshan

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Peace,

There is no difference in treatment here. The context of 'punish them both' is as per 415. That way, do you not get a meaning consistent with the text?

I think this, and people's own assumptions about 'homosexuality' are what keeps some from understanding the verse.

Roshan

Tlepsh

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Peace Samia,

Please give us a word or a term in English to use for ?nisaa?kum? where it includes the ones who stay back at home, the needy, the orphans, the elder ones whom we take care of, etc.

For example the ?nisaa?kum? in verse 65.4 clearly means ?your women?

( &#1618

But in 4.15 it may include males as well. I do not know what term shall be used to express it in English.

( &#1618

And what is the difference between (allaa?i) in 65.4 and (allaati) in 4.15.

unknownuser

Salaam all,

I believe we are barking at the wrong tree, or as you say, taking it the wrong "meaning".

Since we cannot find in the qur'aan examples of difference in punishment between males and females, and
Since the address is to the whole community, men and women
Then "nisaa'kum " cannot mean "your women". We should go for the linguisic, not the sociolinguistic meaning. In the qur'aan, "Nisaa'" does not always mean "women", just like "rijaal" does not always, or rather it often does not mean, "men". We should look for a meaning where "nisaa'" includes males too.

Before asking me, I have not yet figured out a meaning for the verse.

Nisaa always means females, rijaal can be 99 females with at least one male (any age) in the group.

The above is clear from inheritance verses which have to be without ambiguity.

Verse numbers, originally dots/vocal stops get in the way, cause people to read out of context. It's one continuous passage, same punishment/confinement if they repent leave them alone applicable to both females and males involving all indecent sexual fetishes in public, hookers, pimps, johns, clean them up, lock them up...

And those who came/do/commit (F) with the enormous deed/atrocious deed/ugly deed/saying/adultery/fornication/homosexuality from your women, so call a witness on them (F), four from you, so if they witnessed, so hold them (F) in the houses/homes until the death makes them (F) die, or God makes for them (F) a way/means. And those who (B/M), they both come/do/commit it from you, so harm them (B), so if they (B) repented, and they (B) corrected, so turn away from them, that God is forgiving, merciful.

wildguest1956

see also http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning1.htm

In 415-16 the Quran says "As for those of your women who are guilty of fahishah, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify, then confine them to the houses until death takes them or God appoints for them a way. And the two (alladhan) who commit it (fahishah), punish (adhu) them both. But if they repent and act righteously, leave them alone. Surely, God is ever forgiving and most merciful." Chapter 5 discusses the interpretation of these verses in detail. Here we only note that in the verses ?your women? (nisa kum) either primarily means ?your wives? or at least includes wives along with some other female members of the family such as daughters. So the punishment for fahishah in this passage is meant for married women or both married and unmarried women. This means that the Quran shows a consistent pattern in either covering both the married and unmarred cases when it talks of illicit sex or dealing primarily with the married case. Thus, as we have already noted, in numerous passages it prohibits zina without any reference to the marital status of the persons involved; in 425 it explicity talks of the punishment of married slave women and compares it with that of muhsanat with some indications that muhsanat refers to married free women or at least includes married free women; in 415-16 it talks of punishment for fahishah on the part of ?your women? and once again either deals with both married and unmarried women or primarily deals with married women; and, finally, in 3330 it talks of the punishment for the hypothetical cases of fahishah committed by the nisa of the Prophet and clearly deals includes married women. In view of this consistent pattern, it is natural to view 242 as covering both the married and unmarried cases or primarily dealing, as indicated in argument 2 above, with the married case.

Samia

Peace,

There is no difference in treatment here. The context of 'punish them both' is as per 415. That way, do you not get a meaning consistent with the text?

I think this, and people's own assumptions about 'homosexuality' are what keeps some from understanding the verse.

Roshan

If there was no difference, why mentioning women alone (in plural) then mentioning "allathani" which could mean a man and a woman? And how is "aathuhuma" synonymous to "amsikuuhunna fil byiout until they die...."?

Salaam all,

Nisaa always means females, rijaal can be 99 females with at least one male (any age) in the group.

The above is clear from inheritance verses which have to be without ambiguity.

Inheritance verses clearly speak of "thakar & untha" to clear the ambiguity. "nsaa'" in the context of inheritance is understood as "women". In this verse, the fact that the vese addresses men and women, make one questions what "women of women" would mean. Also signaling women for fahisha without mentioning men or how to deal with them is a big problem. If you have a solution for at least the latter problem, then I am all ears.

Why does the verse mention min nisaa'ikum? Isn't "allaati" enough to show they are "women"? Same thing with allthaani why "min rijaalikum"? Does it mean only two men?

As for sying that "nisaa'" ALWAYS means women, I refer you first to chapter 4 Does it speak mainly, or mostly, of women?

Also 4 4
who is addressed? People. Am I to give a "woman/wife" anything?
Look up "sadaqa" in the qur'aan and see who is eligible for it. Do women form any part of those who get it?
What do women get for marriage sadaqa or "ajr"?
Then what's is this sadqa given to "women"? It's definitely not women.
4127 They ask your legal instruction concerning wmen. Say God instructs you in what concerns them and what's recited unto you in the book concerning
-mothers with orphans whom you want to mary yet you do not want to pay them what's due to them
-vulenrable children
-orphans
All these three categories are under the title "women".

Peace Samia,

Please give us a word or a term in English to use for nisaakum where it includes the ones who stay back at home, the needy, the orphans, the elder ones whom we take care of, etc.

I would say "the vulnerable", "the dependants"...

Verse 654 the context (maheed) shows it means "women"

I do not know a difference between allaa'ii and allaati or even allawtii

Samia

see also http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning1.htm

Still this does not answer the big question What about their male partners?
In the verse concerning "zina", God explicitly mentions the male and the female.
Again, verse 247 uses the neutral term "azwaj" to accommodate for both sexes/spouses.
As for daughters, no man has any control or right on his mature daughter inasmuch as he has or any other adult.

wildguest1956

More explanations here

We now explain the two verses word by word.

?Those? (allati). This is general feminine plural. One question that may be raised against the view that verses 15-16 talk about unnatural sex is why, in contrast to men in verse 16, in case of women the plural allati (those women) and not allatan (those two women) is used. But this type of question arises regardless of how we interpret the verses. Thus if we interpret them as referring to heterosexual fahishah, we can ask why the second verse did not use alladhina instead of alladhan, in parallel to verse 15? But the view favored here --- verses 15-16 talk about fahishah that is not covered in 242 under the term zina`, actually does provide an explanation for the use of allati in connection with women and alladhan in connection with men. For, it appears that homosexuality has never been as common among women as among men. Research shows that in our times homosexuality among men is far more common than women. Some estimates make it ten times more common among men than among women. That the situation was somewhat similar in earlier times is shown by the fact that while the Torah prohibits homosexual act among males it does not even mention it among women. Consider the following passages again

If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the animal. If a woman approaches any animal and has sexual relations with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them. (Lev 2015-16)

Here in connection with sex with animals both men and women are mentioned in two parallel passages. But in the law about homosexuality we read only

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 2013)

This law is not followed with a similar law for women, neither here nor anywhere else in the Old Testament. Likewise in the New Testament, in the laws issued by the Christian Byzantine emperors, and in the Hadith we find rarely any reference to homosexuality among women.

It may be that reason for the scarcity of references to homosexuality among women is partly that sex in ancient cultures was associated closely with genital penetration and this was not possible among women. But still if homosexuality had been common among women we should expect it to receive much greater mention in the legal and religious traditions of the past than it actually did.

Keeping the above facts in mind, we can now explain why feminine allatan is not used in verse 15 while its masculine equivalent alladhan is used in verse 16. In case of men, apart from fornication and adultery covered in 242, homosexuality is the most common form of fahishah and so it is the focus in verse 16. Other forms of fahishah such as bestiality can be dealt with by analogy. In case of women, neither homosexuality nor probably any other one type of fahishah, other than heterosexual zina`, is particularly common and consequently no particular type receives a special focus; fahishah is left in its general form covering homosexuality, bestiality and even other acts like striptease shows. To refer to fahishah in this general sense, the use of allatan (?those two women?) is not suitable. Hence the general plural allati (those women) is used... This is somewhat similar to the reference to four witnesses in verse 15 in case of women while there is no such reference in case of men in verse 16, where it is left understood. This is because women are much more adversely affected by accusations of sexual indecency than men, and therefore the rules of evidence are mentioned in case of women (see also 244, 13, which also mention witnesses only in connection with women) and left understood for men. Similarly, homosexuality is much more common among men than among women and so it is mentioned especially for men while for women it is left understood.

?among your women? (min nisa`i kum). Here ?your? (general masculine plural) could refer to Muslim men or the whole Muslim community. ?Your women? can cover both married and unmarried women (see 245, 2187, 361 etc).

?commit fahishah?. The word translated as ?commit? in both verses is in the present tense (yatina and yatiyani). Although this is not always the case (see 419) but this tense often suggests a repeated action. Contrast this with 425, which talks of adultery, where the verb is in the past tense (atayna), suggesting a one-time action.

?provide against them four witnesses from among you?. As noted above, this rule is implicitly understood for the case of men in verse 16. Once again the verse uses ?among you?. If the address is to the believing men, then this means that witnesses are men. If ?you? refers to the whole Muslim community, then the witnesses can be men and/or women. Even in the first case it is possible that the emphasis is not on the gender of the witnesses but on their being believers. That is, the meaning is not that the witnesses should be men but that they should be believers.

?Then if they testify, confine them to the houses?. ?The house? could be the house of the guilty woman, her family?s house, or her husband?s house, if the husband does not divorce her. It could also be a place belonging to the community, a kind of prison where the woman can live as in a house. If the imprisonment takes place in the house of the woman or her relations, then the Islamic government should supervise it. Firstly, it should ensure that due confinement does take place and, secondly, to provide every possible type of help needed for reform.

In this verse the punishment in case of women is specified while for men, as we shall see, it is left open. This is probably for the protection of women because when the punishment has been specified, the authorities cannot make it harsher.

?till death takes them or God provides for them a way out?. Women may engage in fahishah because they cannot get married as a result of some defect from which they suffer or because their marriage for some other reason is delayed far beyond the age of their sexual maturity or because of a deviation in their sexual urges. The purpose of imprisonment is to eliminate opportunities for fahishah and at the same time provide opportunity for reflection under the influence of suitable education and training. This imprisonment is to continue till death unless ?God provides for them a way out? before that. These words are often understood to mean that ?unless God reveals a different type of punishment? which he did in Qur`an 242 or in the hadith of ?Ubadah bin al-Samit. But this interpretation is not at all satisfactory. First, as noted earlier it is far from clear why 242 should be considered later than 415. Second, ?God providing a way out? is something positive rather than another form of punishment. Third, there is no reason why God could not have given the best punishment in verse 15 instead of first giving a different punishment, presumably not so good, and promising to give a better one at a later time. Fourth, for women imprisonment seems to be the best punishment for unnatural sex.

The meaning of ?till God provides for them a way out? is simply that God changes the circumstances so that the causes of the bad ways are removed. For example, if the deviant sexual behavior was caused by difficulty in finding a marriage partner, such a partner may become available at some point. The imprisonment will then end, if there is a real possibility of reform. If the behavior was due to deviation in sexual urges, imprisonment after a certain period may lead to reform and it may be possible to resume normal marital relationship. Again the imprisonment will end at that time. Both eventualities are far from being easy and so the change of circumstances is described as ?God providing a way out?, although admittedly even easy things come from God.

Thus the words ?till God provides for them a way out? are meant to make us look forward to the possibility of reform and healing rather than focus on punishment. Those who take the words as a promise for another, different, type of punishment are focusing too much on punishment, which is not the focus in these verses. This will also become clear when we comment on the next verse.

As noted in Ch. 4, imprisonment is also the punishment for adultery in the code of the Christian emperor Justinian. But the Quranic punishment, apart from the fact that it is not for adultery but for unnatural sex, differs from the Justinian code in the following important way In the Justinian code the husband can get the woman out of confinement within two years; if he does not, then she remains in confinement for life. In contrast, in the Quran the imprisonment can end at any time and not just if the husband decides to take her back; any circumstances with a reasonable promise of rehabilitation of the woman and healing of the social, moral, and spiritual wounds caused by the crime can secure her release.

?And the two (alladhan) among you who commit it? (fahishah). As noted earlier this refers to two men in a homosexual relationship. This is the third time kum is used in the two verses. Once again we can take the word as an address to the male believers or to all believers. If it refers to male believers, then this would make it all the more necessary to take the reference to two men and to a homosexual relation between them. Some commentators take the reference here to all believers while in the phrase ?four among you? in verse 15 they limit the reference to male believers.

One implication of the repeated use of kum is that the punishments prescribed are meant for Muslims only. Non-Muslim residents in Muslim lands are not subject to it. They should as a rule be punished according to their own traditions, a principle that can be applied to penalties for other crimes.

?punish (adhu) them both?. adhiya means to inflict mental or physical pain by one?s comments or actions (3195, 7129, 961, 2910, 3353, 69, 615). Hence here it can mean both verbal and non-verbal forms of punishment such as scolding, condemnation of the offence with reference to its disgusting nature, beating, flogging, social boycott, exile, and even imprisonment. Since men generally have certain responsibilities that require going out, their punishment is not specified as imprisonment but neither can that punishment be excluded from idha`. If, for example, there is a danger that the man may molest young boys, imprisonment may be the only suitable punishment.

For men, imprisonment can be in the house as in verse 15, or, in some cases, in a more restrictive jail. The Qur`an does not prohibit the jail system but it also does not talk about it. As a rule, therefore, jails are not something that should be common in a Muslim land. The jail system costs too much to the society and, also, in jails criminals mix with criminals and therefore are not exposed to the kind of influences that are helpful for their reform.

The punishment cannot consist of amputation, since it does not fit with what is said next.

?So (fa) if the two repent and do good, leave them alone?.

Fa can mean ?so?, ?thus?, ?then,? ?but then?. The word can suggest here that the purpose of punishment is to lead to repentance and reform. The whole statement corresponds to the words ?until God provides for them a way out? in the previous verse. The punishment, mental as well as physical, should stop when the guilty person shows clear signs of reform. This cessation of punishment has some important implications First, the punishment should be of such a nature that can be stopped. This excludes amputation. Second, there should be no stigma attached with the person after he has been reformed by repentance, since such stigmatization causes mental anguish which needs to stop. Third, if an act of unnatural sex was committed sometimes in the past, but the person has since reformed, there will be no punishment of that single act. This is because the focus in the verses is on reform, which is not only clear from the above words but also from the fact that the next two verses (417-1 continue the theme of repentance.

This emphasis on repentance and reform suggests that the Qur`an rejects the view that homosexual behavior is something with which a person is born and, therefore, he or she can do nothing to change it.

Surely, God is most accepting of repentance and most merciful?. This reminds us that the merciful God is ever willing to turn to his servants in forgiveness if they duly repent. Therefore, we, too, should show acceptance and compassion after the guilty persons have duly repented.

In summary 242 and 415-16 should be read together and not as one abrogating the other. The first passage, 24;2, gives the punishment for zina` understood as natural sex between a man and a woman not married to each other a maximum of 100 lashes. The second passage, 415-16, prescribes the punishment for other forms of fahishah including homosexuality house confinement in case of women and any type of effective punishment for men. This punishment is aimed at reform of the culprit and should cease as soon as clear signs of reform are visible.

This is that simple, clear teaching given by God that some Muslims in earlier times changed by turning to sources other than his word, importing death penalty for every type of fahishah, and giving their views the authority of the Prophet by fabricating ahadith. And unfortunately many Muslims in later generations followed them in their errors. May the Most Gracious One bring us all closer to his word and the authentic sunnah of his Messenger and have the courage to reject the errors or lies of some earlier Muslims.

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