Intercourse: Allowed During Fasting!
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Strange logic. Now you are reading it to me, should I follow you to get response from Allah of my loving Him? We are reading a book. Its words mean only what they say, not what we want to presume. We have to translate the words of the Book and not assign our ideas to the book. Qul is a word which nowhere in the world means to stand by the verses of Quran.
I give time before I answer this post, tomorrow. Ponder over!
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And now we know it is He, Allah that made His Sign clear to us that the calendar month of the Ramadan is a mere worthless and meaningless ritual; and that there is no holiness in the calendar month at all. So from now onwards we shall make our days holier by being sole and soulful believer, in the Revelations that shall be sent down upon us from Allah direct as wahy, as we ponder over the ayats.
It is time to go to a doctor.
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Does it not mean then, a combination of false / true is confusion? And Quran endorses 100% such idea of imagining or fancying?
But to the contrary Allah says "Why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know."There is no dispute; it's a 100% clear verse -- no sex, food, or drink during the fasting.
Excellent point bravo bravo bravo
Worth serious research and consideration.
Yes serious research and consideration, if fasting helps personality disorders likening sex to bad emotions and using the bathroom.
It is time to go to a doctor.
lol
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It is time to go to a doctor.
No! Do not commit shirk by going to doctor! Believe in Allah alone and turn to Him in repentance.
Yes serious research and consideration, if fasting helps personality disorders likening sex to bad emotions and using the bathroom.
At one's wits end they become very witty indeed!
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Strange logic. Now you are reading it to me, should I follow you to get response from Allah of my loving Him? We are reading a book. Its words mean only what they say, not what we want to presume. We have to translate the words of the Book and not assign our ideas to the book. Qul is a word which nowhere in the world means to stand by the verses of Quran.
Running short of resources and keenness of perception, the usages in the postings have become bizarre. Strange logic! The meaning of strange is unfamiliar and never heard of it before. This expression shall befit a people who follow only the ancestral tendencies with an aversion to reasoning and ascent. When the expression of strange is used there is no room in the heart for logic. If there is resolve to follow only the Truth and reject the rituals of forefathers then the logic from Allah guides; and believe there is nothing such things like strange logic.
10 39
Nay, they reject that of which they have no comprehensive knowledge, and the wisdom of it has not come to them yet; even thus did those before them reject; see then what was the end of the unjust..
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Running short of resources and keenness of perception, the usages in the postings have become bizarre. Strange logic! The meaning of strange is unfamiliar and never heard of it before. This expression shall befit a people who follow only the ancestral tendencies with an aversion to reasoning and ascent. When the expression of strange is used there is no room in the heart for logic. If there is resolve to follow only the Truth and reject the rituals of forefathers then the logic from Allah guides; and believe there is nothing such things like strange logic.
10 39
Nay, they reject that of which they have no comprehensive knowledge, and the wisdom of it has not come to them yet; even thus did those before them reject; see then what was the end of the unjust.
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Strane logic was in the context, "Now you are reading it to me, should I follow you to get response from Allah of my loving Him? We are reading a book. Its words mean only what they say, not what we want to presume. We have to translate the words of the Book and not assign our ideas to the book. Qul is a word which nowhere in the world means to stand by the verses of Quran".
What they reject is the same what is being rejected with regard to "Qul" today,You the Messenger ask them then go and bring...........
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Strange logic was in the context, "Now you are reading it to me, should I follow you to get response from Allah of my loving Him? We are reading a book. Its words mean only what they say
Just think over that for beings like us when we need contextual explanation for just two words we utter say, 'Strange logic' for better understanding, do you mean to say that the words of the Great Reading are just what they are? See hereunder the thesaurus you have used having distinctly different meanings
You the Messenger ask them then go and bring........... Can we take both the meanings as correct? If yes, then the whole meaning changes and the context changes too. This is the essence of Quran, that testifies that even if the seas turn to ink, and trees of the worlds become pens Allah's words will not be over. On the contrary like you believe, if they are not the words that fit to context in real time for each and everyone of 6 billion people contemporarily, then there is no guidance for the individual life and thus the scripture becomes void.
Next if you follow me When I say "No! Do not commit shirk by going to doctor! Believe in Allah alone and turn to Him in repentance," will you not get response from Allah of your loving Him? And will Allah not love me for saying this? Think over before you want to pen me down.
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Among the three things 2 are being consumed internally i.e., eating and drinking. But the third one is expending the waste which will over flow if not voided like urine and motion; and that which shall soil you if not evacuated when necessary. Reconsider now and relearn the ayat afresh. Here is how best we shall understand by the leave of Allah without the taint of hadith or the practice in vogue
Here is the very beginning of the ayat! It is permitted to be with your wives on the nights of fasting. Where is the question for this at all when the fasting begins only from the dawn and ends at dusk? This part of the ayat has been necessitated from Allah because the mischief mongers like the mullah-hadith propagandists, swearing by the prophet, threateningly enforced the falsehood, in the name of the prophet, upon the people that they could not have the relationship with their wives. With the first part of the ayat the confusion created by the hadith miscreants of all times is put to end.
Now comes the second part of the ayat relating to the day time "They are your garments and you are their garments." Garments are mostly essential only during the day time. You as husband and wife have to don each other the clothing with purity, removing and eliminating the lewdness as and when necessary, especially during the days of fasting. Such is the holiness Allah attributes to the relationship between the wife and husband as purifying and lawful. Each shall protect each other's dignity by being lawful to each other that they be free from any lewdness in the heart during the fasting period and don on each other the garment of self-esteem and dignity. Allah loves such purity at heart free from all indecencies especially during the fasting. But herein again the hadith mischief-mongers obstructed the straight path to purity, allowing lewdness to creep into the heart through abstention; and make us spend the days of fasting with pent-up emotions! This is no fasting at all for reasons obvious. Now comes Allah's dissatisfaction and contempt for such followers and the warning from Him goes thus
Allah is Aware that you were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He has turned in mercy toward you and forgiven you. So hold intercourse with them and seek the purity that which Allah hath ordained for you.
After this the rest of the parts of the ayat goes about eating and drinking. Intercourse is entirely a different matter; it is not like eating and drinking; but removal of bad emotions like voiding of urine and evacuating the bowels to remove the impurities from our body. intercourse is elimination of the bad emotions and best protection for the mind whose purity is of at most important for the completion of fasting.
Finally comes the guidance when you shall not be with your wives. This is, when you vow and determinedly begin your ihram i.e., being in remembrance of Allah alone for a day or two or three, abstain from your emotions seeking protection from Allah all the while.
but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Mosques are not the places where you have family relations; so here the mosques are your houses. Allah regards your houses to be the mosques because you are in constant remembrance of Allah's Names and no other names are entertained. At this juncture 2 114 shall be remembered "In places for the worship of Allah, Allah's name should be celebrated." Now the final part of the ayat Those are Limits by Allah Approach them not. Approach them not stands here solely on this ground; but you can eat and drink; thus it is not fasting here.
The end of the ayat Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men that they may fear!
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Do you realize that your entire case is based on nothing? All you have presented thus far is your own opinions and interpretations. You have provided not even a single shred of historical evidence which proves your case that the Early Muslims used to have intercourse during the day in Ramadan. This is why the oppositions interpretation of 2187 holds, because they have historical documents (hadith) to argue for their interpretation (that the verse speicifies the only time during which intercourse is allowed i.e. the Night). While you have no evidence to support your own interpretations.
And dont start saying that the hadith is not allowed, because in this case the hadith is not adding any injunctions, so they are allowed. The injunction is clearly stated in the Quran (2187). Only through semantics can you make your case. This seems to be the preferred tactic of many here.
Salaam
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Do you realize that your entire case is based on nothing? All you have presented thus far is your own opinions and interpretations. You have provided not even a single shred of historical evidence which proves your case that the Early Muslims used to have intercourse during the day in Ramadan. This is why the oppositions interpretation of 2187 holds, because they have historical documents (hadith) to argue for their interpretation (that the verse speicifies the only time during which intercourse is allowed i.e. the Night). While you have no evidence to support your own interpretations.
And dont start saying that the hadith is not allowed, because in this case the hadith is not adding any injunctions, so they are allowed. The injunction is clearly stated in the Quran (2187). Only through semantics can you make your case. This seems to be the preferred tactic of many here.
Salaam
If my entire write up on 2 187 shall have to be based on the hadith, and if not it has no relevance at all. then what about Quran? How shall one have to believe the entire Quran? What and whose hadith or the historical evidence does Quran shall have to depend upon? There is nothing comparable to Quran! No historical evidence can touch it except that Allah narrates. Is Quran for thinking over and its verses are for pondering on or for disputing the Quran and its ayats with the so called historical evidence? History is 'his-story' or hearsay and nothing more to it. Your history has to be verified with the verses of Quran and not the reverse of it shall ever be practiced. It is unfortunate the hadith proponents have resorted to the reverse course; and still worse, they heavily bank their reliance on such off the course utterances.
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Salaam bro
If my entire write up on 2 187 shall have to be based on the hadith, and if not it has no relevance at all. then what about Quran? How shall one have to believe the entire Quran? What and whose hadith or the historical evidence does Quran shall have to depend upon? There is nothing comparable to Quran! No historical evidence can touch it except that Allah narrates. Is Quran for thinking over and its verses are for pondering on or for disputing the Quran and its ayats with the so called historical evidence? History is 'his-story' or hearsay and nothing more to it. Your history has to be verified with the verses of Quran and not the reverse of it shall ever be practiced. It is unfortunate the hadith proponents have resorted to the reverse course; and still worse, they heavily bank their reliance on such off the course utterances.
The injunction in 2187 is clear and it is well-established. If you challenge this, then the burden of proof is on you. So please present historical evidence that the early Muslims used to consider intercourse during the day permissible. The verse that you have provided actually makes much more sense if we read it in its conventional interpretation. Why would God specifically allow intercourse during the Night, if it was already allowed during the day anyway? The historical reason for this injunction were those Muslims who were forbidding themselves intercourse during the nights and the days, so God revealed this verse to allow them to have sexual relations during the night. You have to take verses in their proper context (this applies to the Quran as it does with everything else).
PeAcE
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Salaam bro
The injunction in 2187 is clear and it is well-established. If you challenge this, then the burden of proof is on you. So please present historical evidence that the early Muslims used to consider intercourse during the day permissible. The verse that you have provided actually makes much more sense if we read it in its conventional interpretation. Why would God specifically allow intercourse during the Night, if it was already allowed during the day anyway? The historical reason for this injunction were those Muslims who were forbidding themselves intercourse during the nights and the days, so God revealed this verse to allow them to have sexual relations during the night. You have to take verses in their proper context (this applies to the Quran as it does with everything else).
PeAcE
Salaam brother,
Please read reply
No. # 6 of this thread on the very first page for the answer to your query. I have reproduced it here.Among the three things 2 are being consumed internally i.e., eating and drinking. But the third one is expending the waste which will over flow if not voided like urine and motion; and that which shall soil you if not evacuated when necessary. Reconsider now and relearn the ayat afresh. Here is how best we shall understand by the leave of Allah without the taint of hadith or the practice in vogue
Here is the very beginning of the ayat! It is permitted to be with your wives on the nights of fasting. Where is the question for this at all when the fasting begins only from the dawn and ends at dusk? This part of the ayat has been necessitated from Allah because the mischief mongers like the mullah-hadith propagandists, swearing by the prophet, threateningly enforced the falsehood, in the name of the prophet, upon the people that they could not have the relationship with their wives. With the first part of the ayat the confusion created by the hadith miscreants of all times is put to end.
Now comes the second part of the ayat relating to the day time "They are your garments and you are their garments." Garments are mostly essential only during the day time. You as husband and wife have to don each other the clothing with purity, removing and eliminating the lewdness as and when necessary, especially during the days of fasting. Such is the holiness Allah attributes to the relationship between the wife and husband as purifying and lawful. Each shall protect each other's dignity by being lawful to each other that they be free from any lewdness in the heart during the fasting period and don on each other the garment of self-esteem and dignity. Allah loves such purity at heart free from all indecencies especially during the fasting. But herein again the hadith mischief-mongers obstructed the straight path to purity, allowing lewdness to creep into the heart through abstention; and make us spend the days of fasting with pent-up emotions! This is no fasting at all for reasons obvious. Now comes Allah's dissatisfaction and contempt for such followers and the warning from Him goes thus
Allah is Aware that you were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He has turned in mercy toward you and forgiven you. So hold intercourse with them and seek the purity that which Allah hath ordained for you.
After this the rest of the parts of the ayat goes about eating and drinking. Intercourse is entirely a different matter; it is not like eating and drinking; but removal of bad emotions like voiding of urine and evacuating the bowels to remove the impurities from our body. intercourse is elimination of the bad emotions and best protection for the mind whose purity is of at most important for the completion of fasting.
Finally comes the guidance when you shall not be with your wives. This is, when you vow and determinedly begin your ihram i.e., being in remembrance of Allah alone for a day or two or three, abstain from your emotions seeking protection from Allah all the while.
but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Mosques are not the places where you have family relations; so here the mosques are your houses. Allah regards your houses to be the mosques because you are in constant remembrance of Allah's Names and no other names are entertained. At this juncture 2 114 shall be remembered "In places for the worship of Allah, Allah's name should be celebrated." Now the final part of the ayat Those are Limits by Allah Approach them not. Approach them not stands here solely on this ground; but you can eat and drink; thus it is not fasting here.
The end of the ayat Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men that they may fear!
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I understand bro, but I will warn you against relying on "reason" to understand religion, especially religious rituals... They are by definition, irrational things, and faith itself transcends logic. You can not decypher these things via reason. I used to believe, like you, that you can apply reason to religion... but I have recently proven to myself that you can not.
If you want me to recommend some philosophic literature that proves this, I will be happy to.
Salaam
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You rely on anything except believing your higher faculties. What is your take on the following?
25 73
Those who, when they are given the revelations of their God, they fall not there at as if they were deaf or blind;
47 24
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?Brother I take your advice if your answer to the above does not let you down.
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47 24
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?God has answered this question in the very beginning of the Quran Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering...
There are many places in the Quran in which God makes clear to us that guidance is not up to us (i.e. can not be arrived at by man's own cognitive capacity). We can not discover "truth" by ourselves, unless we are allowed to by God. Because any such notion of an objective "truth" will be, by definition, transcendent. And transcendent concepts are by definition, beyond human cognitive capacities, i.e. we can not rationalize them.
Allah guides whomever He wills. And He leaves in error whom He wills. This is why the Quran always speaks only to the believers. They are its only audience.
Salaam
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God has answered this question in the very beginning of the Quran
There are many places in the Quran in which God makes clear to us that guidance is not up to us (i.e. can not be arrived at by man's own cognitive capacity). We can not discover "truth" by ourselves, unless we are allowed to by God. Because any such notion of an objective "truth" will be, by definition, transcendent. And transcendent concepts are by definition, beyond human cognitive capacities, i.e. we can not rationalize them.
Salaam
Brother, you had not said anything about 25 73. I am awaiting eagerly for your reply so that I do not see in you any contradiction in understanding, which clarity in you then shall pave way for me to follow you. And with regard to your 27, before you jump on it there are verses from 2 1 to 2 6 wherein the criteria has been well founded for your conclusion as to who a believer is and who a rejecter is!
Next,
Allah guides whomever He wills. And He leaves in error whom He wills. This is why the Quran always speaks only to the believers. They are its only audience.
13 27 Lo! Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth unto Himself all who turn unto Him.
Here I quote your verse Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering... Now please appropriate this verse with the verse above and give me your guidance. Will not Allah Guide me if I turn unto Him for all my needs? If this is my case, then am I right in being given the light by Allah? And Guided by Allah? Will it not satisfy Allah as I strive to see sense in His ayats and verify that every ayat is rational and thus are from Allah?What do you have to say against these? I welcome your Dawa.
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Brother you are missing the point. There are two separate issues here
#1 The fact is that if God is omnipotent and omnipresent (which He is) then your act (of seeking guidance) is itself not your own. Because you can not take credit for any guidance you have, or any guidance you get.
Once we understand this, only then can we understand the verses which you quoted here
25 73
Those who, when they are given the revelations of their God, they fall not there at as if they were deaf or blind;
47 24
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?#2 These verses do not say that just because you have applied your own reason and understanding to the Quran you have (necessarily) come to the right interpretations. These verses do NOT guarantee perfect guidance to anyone and everyone who applies their reason to them. Because everyone is guided AND misguided by God. And those who are led astray by God, are led astray through the their cognitive faculties as well. Remember the verses in the Quran which talk about how those who are hypocrites are led ASTRAY by the verses of the Quran? And when they read them, their enmity increases? This is why I was cautioning you in placing too much faith in your own interpretations if they conflict and contradict established practices, as you have no guarantees that you are right. And it is better to be safe then sorry, right?
Lastly bro, I would like to make clear to you that I am not really doing "dawa" here. I am not asking you to "follow" me either. Because I am not presenting anything new to you. I am just explaining to you some basic concepts that are well known. And Allah knows best.
PeAcE
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Because everyone is guided AND misguided by God. And those who are led astray by God, are led astray through the their cognitive faculties as well. Remember the verses in the Quran which talk about how those who are hypocrites are led ASTRAY by the verses of the Quran? And when they read them, their enmity increases? This is why I was cautioning you in placing too much faith in your own interpretations if they conflict and contradict established practices, as you have no guarantees that you are right. And it is better to be safe then sorry, right?
The red part is also the part of what people call "established practices". What is the guarantee that the "established practices" are true? All the pagans put forward this as strong argument, should they be considered as innocent? Satan also asserted that Allah misguided him.
By giving example He lets (exposes) many astraying and with it guides many;since He does not let by it anyone remain neglectful/astraying, except the "Fasiqeen";
Fasiq is a one who is already a deviant, astray.