Intercourse: Allowed During Fasting!

unknownuser

Salaam code,

Actually, it is stated clearly in the Quran

011.107
They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.

It is a mistake and a misunderstanding to think that God created some of His creatures solely for the purpose of punishing them forever (like the Christians). At the same time it is also a mistake to believe that just because hell is temporary, we can do evil deeds as "the fire will only touch us for a little while", (like the Jews) because that "little while" will feel like an eternity. There is a hadith somewhere which states that the longest period that anyone will spend in hell would be the equivalent of their life here on earth. Something like 80 years for the last person to be taken out of hell. There are actually many hadiths which say that eventually everyone will be taken out of hell.

I'm sure the others will respond as well; that if interpreted as such would actually be a clear contradiction.
Read in context, next verse the words are repeated verbatim for the opposite case?

11107
11108

11107-108 Eternally in it as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, that your Lord doer, to what He wants. And but those who were made happy, so in the Paradise, eternally in it, as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, a gift not cut.

A gift not cut is not an except/exception rather illa/only continuous and uninterrupted as the punishment.

Peace

c0de

dr Fazl + Eid

Salaam brothers

@ dr Fazl

Brother,
You seem to adopt a style, with a simple 'No - Wrong - not true - again, not true - no sense and so on'. I need concrete explanative support to what you say as a man of faith in objects, without subjective understanding attached to it. Hearsay and history is your Quran! Indeed it is nothing but tragedy!

It is you who have continuously made one unqualified assertion after another. This entire thread is based on an argument for a position you hold, a position which defies simply logic. Not only have you failed to defend your views against scrutiny, you are now accusing me of wrongfully interpreting the Quran, which I find amusing.

There is no objective definition over there. This is evidence for you to know that subjectiveness matters for understanding. God is invisible and infinite and so are all of His Attributes. Our life must be lived through in this universe with His help and of His attributes e.g., forgiving, merciful, patience, faithful, giving and such that. If one follows the history he is living in the dead past otherwise in the graves. Similarly if one is living for the future and hereafter he is with the liveliness of Allah. These two ends cannot meet as they face with their backs to each other.

Actually, not a single thing I said in that sentence was "subjective" or unqualified because what I said is, in a sense, the direct CONSEQUENCE of a fully deterministic universe. It is advanced physics. If this confuses you, then you should stop asking such questions (If you can't keep up with the answers)

What a claim! And What an understanding! For you fasting is ritual; and yes, ritual cannot be reasoned and you admit you follow unreasonableness! What a wasteful exercise! If you reason there cannot be ritual and you will be saved from hadith of the people. Read Allah's hadith in the last part of 2 185 to know the rationality why you should fast. History is full of chaos and mischief and confusion. Even Allah's earlier scriptures are meddled with - and this is the reason why Allah says He has taken upon Himself the protection of the Book. But you are bent only upon hadith, the hearsay, the stories of the past such as the biblical history and mosaic law.

It is that very "reason" behind fasting which your entire argument from post #1 of this thread rejects. And as for my "claim" that rituals are irrational, that is not a "claim" at all. Go and ask someone who has studied philosophy whether or not rituals can be classed as "rational" from the point of view of philosophy.

How can you be sure you are not as long as you are following the hadith of the people and believing not in the subjectivity and hadith of Allah - but relying only on the objective forms, and then following the idolized things?

But I didnt accuse you did I? You accused me. I am not sure of the perfection of my knowledge, this is why I did not say that you are lying. But you seem to be so sure of yourself, that you accused me of fabricating lies against God... and why? Because I have contradicted your flawed logic.

@ Eid

I'm sure the others will respond as well; that if interpreted as such would actually be a clear contradiction.
Read in context, next verse the words are repeated verbatim for the opposite case?

11107
11108

11107-108 Eternally in it as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, that your Lord doer, to what He wants. And but those who were made happy, so in the Paradise, eternally in it, as long as the skies/space and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, a gift not cut.

A gift not cut is not an except/exception rather illa/only continuous and uninterrupted as the punishment.

Peace

Here are three different translations of that verse

011.107
YUSUFALI They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.
PICKTHAL Abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth. Lo! thy Lord is Doer of what He will.
SHAKIR Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.

As you can plainly see, there is no contradiction at all. In fact, if you interpret those verses as justifying eternal damnation, that would contradict the verses of the Quran which say that Allah is Merciful. Try and explain how a merciful Creator would create a being solely for the purpose of punishing it in eternal fire. You can't do it.

Also, the verse ends by signaling that there is a purpose for hell, and it clearly implies that God wants to bring about a change through such an ordeal. Remember that in the Quran God has said that He created man as an upright being, and that is man's true nature. Therefore, this the mission of God for man, and that mission has to be fullfilled one way or another, come hell or high water. This is what is meant by the ending promise in this verse "Your Lord Is Doer of What He Intends"... Clearly implying that man will be purified, the easy way (in this life) or the hard way (in the next). One way or another, man will be made fit for eternal life in heaven.

PeAcE

drfazl

dr Fazl + Eid

Salaam brothers

@ dr Fazl

It is you who have continuously made one unqualified assertion after another. This entire thread is based on an argument for a position you hold, a position which defies simply logic. Not only have you failed to defend your views against scrutiny, you are now accusing me of wrongfully interpreting the Quran, which I find amusing.

Salaam

You are a believer in ritual or a stereotyped behaviour without reasoning, i.e., your behaviour is you dare not ask why to meaningless practices or dare not clarify as to why you do certain ceremony and towards what cause so that you satisfied your reasoning faculties - thus I see you as a meaningless follower of ceremonial practices. It is not pertinent at this stage for me to push you to answer me the reasoning behind anything, leave alone fasting! I had to explain these only to defuse your amusement. Islam is a series of ceremonial bundle of acting or worship, a twig of such acting is fasting - Is this your view? Am I rightly getting you?

Actually, not a single thing I said in that sentence was "subjective" or unqualified because what I said is, in a sense, the direct CONSEQUENCE of a fully deterministic universe. It is advanced physics. If this confuses you, then you should stop asking such questions (If you can't keep up with the answers)

I know you are a physical man. Previously you were a student of physics; now a student of advanced physics that pushes the earlier physics behind - and tomorrow? Subjectively you will become a believer in a super advanced physics? And day after tomorrow - you will grow subjectively more and more?

It is that very "reason" behind fasting which your entire argument from post #1 of this thread rejects. And as for my "claim" that rituals are irrational, that is not a "claim" at all. Go and ask someone who has studied philosophy whether or not rituals can be classed as "rational" from the point of view of philosophy.

You are not yet a philosopher i.e., one who loves pursuing the Wisdom. As you admit you had studied philosophy you were a student of the system! You ritually study the books, ceremonially graduate and there is nothing you had developed as wisdom of your own - be it physics or philosophy; and you say to me to go and ask some one who studied the philosophy. Is there a full stop to studies? Or is it a continuous process till eternity? If it is so, is it right to go to some student who is yet to become complete in attaining the status of Wisdom? I am asking you to speak your self. Since the self is the Light and it is very much subjective, you are in the dark and in the philosophically chaotic mood.

Peace.

.

drfazl

Salaam brother c0de,

Keeping in mind that there cannot be confusion and contradiction between the ayats of Allah, I bring to mind another ayat from another chapter, where Allah says you will abide therein forever - hell or heaven. On the D Day, the heavens will vanish and the earth will become plain dust. Now the everlasting and never ending remodeling of the skies and earth begins. And as far the earth its expanse will be as the breadth of the earth and the skies. Follow the 2 verses I cite below and thereafter you will know the real meaning of " so long as the heavens and the earth endure ... "

14 48
One day the earth will be changed to a different earth, and so will be the heavens, and you will be marshalled forth, before Allah, the One, the Irresistible.

3 133
Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-

11.107
Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure except as your Lord pleases;surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.

Now all this combined together to get at the correct meaning in no uncertain terms read the ayat below, so that there is no need for extra interpretation.

3 23 Have you not seen those who are given some knowledge of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it might decide between them, then a part of them turn back to their hadiths and they withdraw.

3 24 This is because they say The fire shall not touch us but for a few days; and what they have forged deceives them in the matter of their religion.

2 80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have you taken such a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that you say of Allah what you do not know?"

These are those that cast lies on Allah.

You must read Quran seeking the Wisdom from Him brushing aside all the human taught philosophies and inconsistencies, to be Guided by Allah through the Quran, Save me from satanic subjects of physics and philosophies shall be your prayer whenever you touch Quran.

Peace.

.

unknownuser

Peace code,

Here are three different translations of that verse

011.107
YUSUFALI They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.
PICKTHAL Abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth. Lo! thy Lord is Doer of what He will.
SHAKIR Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.

As you can plainly see, there is no contradiction at all.

Read in context, all three translations contradict. Again the two verses (you did not include 1110 use identical wording, see part in BOLD?

11108 Waamma allatheena suAAidoo fafee aljannati khalideena feeha ma damati alssamawatu waal-ardu illa ma shaa rabbuka AAataan ghayra majthoothin

Yusuf Ali And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth a gift without break.

Now apply consistency, tell us what is the exception and how long in the Garden? A clear contradiction in the very same sentence in the words used prior and following illa best derived from context similar to?

Allahu la ilaha illa huwa -- God, no God only He

The word except implies leaving out part or some, exclusions and more than one. To use ?except? would be a contradiction since there are no exceptions to the above or below statement?

11107-108
Eternally in it as long as the skies and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, that your Lord doer, to what He wants. And those who were made happy, so in the Paradise eternally in it, as long as the skies and the earth lasted, only what your Lord wanted, a gift not cut.

In fact, if you interpret those verses as justifying eternal damnation, that would contradict the verses of the Quran which say that Allah is Merciful. Try and explain how a merciful Creator would create a being solely for the purpose of punishing it in eternal fire. You can't do it.

Atheist argument, two sides of the same coin, etc. There is no contradiction; God is Merciful to those who repent, nor created to be punished all have choice to reward/punish themselves, simple as that -- their choice.

Also, the verse ends by signaling that there is a purpose for hell, and it clearly implies that God wants to bring about a change through such an ordeal. Remember that in the Quran God has said that He created man as an upright being, and that is man's true nature. Therefore, this the mission of God for man, and that mission has to be fullfilled one way or another, come hell or high water. This is what is meant by the ending promise in this verse "Your Lord Is Doer of What He Intends"... Clearly implying that man will be purified, the easy way (in this life) or the hard way (in the next). One way or another, man will be made fit for eternal life in heaven.

Conjecture. With all conscious circumstances remains ability to ?choose one?s attitude? (the start of all action) ? the test. Otherwise, why even bother about anything if thoughts are a programmed domino chain reaction.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD7ZI5gNia0

Peace

Mazhar

Those who are deceiving themselves and are hopeful that after living for some time in hell will be taken out, may read this

c0de

@ Fazl

Since you are still insisting that religion is based on rationality and rituals have to be based in reason, I will not even attempt following up with you because your own point is illogical. The whole idea of religion is to TRANSCEND rationality. But you wouldnt know anything about that, would you? And for all your hope in rationality, it is funny that your entire argument from post #1 lacks a basic sense of valid reasoning. I mean before you do anything else, at least apply this same rationality to your own argument! ('abstinence for a couple of hours a day promotes impurity'... LOL!)

@ Mazhar

rite... all the translations are wrong... and you are right. ) (great argument, I wish I could argue like that) P There is no CONTRADICTION in using the word "except" you are just seeing one because it doesnt fit within your own view of things. And as for your argument for free will, I will just say that free will contradicts God's Omnipotence and Omniscience, this is why it is invalid. But I am sure you will try to find a way around that like the Christians have been trying to do (and failing) for the past 1000 years. Have fun!

PeAcE

drfazl

@ Fazl

('abstinence for a couple of hours a day promotes impurity'... LOL!)

This indicates you have already run out of points; so you burst into laughter.

Peace.

.

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

After pondering over 2187, I have come to the conclusion that dr fazl's understanding of intercourse being allowed during the daytime of abstinence is erroneous and incorrect. My reasoning is as follows

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the abstinence until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the institutions of obedience. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.

One has to look at the complete part in bold to see what exactly is included in the abstinence from dawn till night. Please note that it says you shall complete the abstinence until night. It does not say you shall not eat or drink until night. So what exactly is to be abstained from has to be determined by examining the complete part in bold above. "And do not approach them while you are devoted in masaajid" is also part of abstinence so one CANNOT have sex while devoted in the institution of obedience. WHILE ONE IS ABSTAINING ONE IS OBEYING GOD'S COMMAND AND ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY DEVOTED IN THE INSTITUTION OF OBEDIENCE WHILE ABSTAINING, SO NO INTERCOURSE DURING ABSTINENCE. I believe God is very clear on this.

It has been extensively discussed and debated on this forum that "masjid" as used in the great reading can only be "institution of obedience". One can use the search function for the appropriate threads. One can also read the following article for pertinent discussion

http//www.free-minds.org/name

May God guide us all to the truth.

drfazl

Peace everyone,

After pondering over 2187, I have come to the conclusion that dr fazl's understanding of intercourse being allowed during the daytime of abstinence is erroneous and incorrect. My reasoning is as follows

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the abstinence until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the institutions of obedience. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.

One has to look at the complete part in bold to see what exactly is included in the abstinence from dawn till night. Please note that it says you shall complete the abstinence until night. It does not say you shall not eat or drink until night. So what exactly is to be abstained from has to be determined by examining the complete part in bold above. "And do not approach them while you are devoted in masaajid" is also part of abstinence so one CANNOT have sex while devoted in the institution of obedience. WHILE ONE IS ABSTAINING ONE IS OBEYING GOD'S COMMAND AND ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY DEVOTED IN THE INSTITUTION OF OBEDIENCE WHILE ABSTAINING, SO NO INTERCOURSE DURING ABSTINENCE. I believe God is very clear on this.

It has been extensively discussed and debated on this forum that "masjid" as used in the great reading can only be "institution of obedience". One can use the search function for the appropriate threads. One can also read the following article for pertinent discussion

http//www.free-minds.org/name

May God guide us all to the truth.

While much appreciating truthseeker's view point, I would like to draw attention to each and every aspect of the ayats here, for furthering the pondering. There are 10 parts in this ayat.

Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives
They are garment for you and you are garment for them.
Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves

and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you.

So hold intercourse with them
and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you,
and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn.
Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall
and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques.
These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not.
Thus Allah explains His revelation to mankind that they may fear.

I am taking the first 2 parts of the ayats alone

The first part is about the night and the second part is about the day. As far as the night is concerned, it is out of purview to fasting for fasting is a day time observance. So Allah first removes the confusion caused by the damned reprobates. There ends the first part of the ayat which is not at all concerned with fasting.

Before going to the second part, which expounds about the day time of fasting, let us ponder the first part and come to a conclusion to see if we are arriving at the above observation.

Peace.

.

c0de

This indicates you have already run out of points; so you burst into laughter.

I think my laughter indicates amusement at your absurd logic.

drfazl

codeI think my laughter indicates amusement at your absurd logic.

c0de,
You only think even now; you are not sure of what you speak even, leave alone logic; and above all absurd logic.

Any way coming to logic, Logic is individual branch of philosophy or individualized philosophy that analyses the reasoning on a pattern; and the reasoning is based on interdependence of various events and facts he encountered in his life. Thus logic based on philosophy is an individual's personal outlook or viewpoint. Not only that! A philosopher loves to live by his values as he deems his logic and philosophy fit to be true to his life.

Peace.

.

c0de

c0de,
You only think even now; you are not sure of what you speak even, leave alone logic; and above all absurd logic.

whatever

Any way coming to logic, Logic is individual branch of philosophy or individualized philosophy that analyses the reasoning on a pattern; and the reasoning is based on interdependence of various events and facts he encountered in his life. Thus logic based on philosophy is an individual's personal outlook or viewpoint. Not only that! A philosopher loves to live by his values as he deems his logic and philosophy fit to be true to his life.

(LOL!) That's great professor... now try comparing your definition to the ACTUAL definition of logic, and see if you can see the difference (and the fact that your definition is EXACTLY opposed to the actual definition)

"Logic is the study of the principles of valid demonstration and inference . Logic is a branch of philosophy, a part of the classical trivium, as well as a branch of mathematics and computer science. The word derives from Greek (logike), fem. of (logikos), "possessed of reason, intellectual, dialectical, argumentative", from logos, "word, thought, idea, argument, account, reason, or principle".

Logic concerns the structure of statements and arguments, in formal systems of inference and natural language. Topics include validity, fallacies and paradoxes, reasoning using probability and arguments involving causality. Logic is also commonly used today in argumentation theory."

^^^ Notice how your original argument contains none of what is highlighted in BOLD
but contains much of what is highlighted in RED

PeAcE

drfazl

"Logic is the study of the principles of valid demonstration and inference

Logic means to be engaged in the learning or understanding process of a subject say, the principles. So keep your cool and be humble while you are in the process of learning the principles, the basic rules of understanding.

With regard to valid demonstration and inference In demonstration, can there be invalid demonstration too? That's nice! Then the inference is abstract thought or logical conclusion.

Then the Logic .... it is not the end neither what you conclude is the Truth.

Your LOL proves you have run out of points.

Welcome.

.

herbman

Salam,

what is the goal for fasting?
I think it is to abstain what you do usually, eating, drinking and sex.

The word SYAM as per Lanes mean exactly that abstain from food, drink and coitus!!!!!

So either you change the definition of the word SYAM either you change your mind.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000473.pdf

best regards

drfazl

Salam,

what is the goal for fasting?
I think it is to abstain what you do usually, eating, drinking and sex.

The word SYAM as per Lanes mean exactly that abstain from food, drink and coitus!!!!!

So either you change the definition of the word SYAM either you change your mind.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000473.pdf

Intercourse Allowed during the day of fasting

Peace,

Fasting is to make us free from the hateful, contemptuous and despised life of shirk, thus purifying us. A day consists of night and day. During the night part we are made to sleep and Allah relieves us of all our activities so that our committing shirk is in the least. Then as the day breaks we enter into the devising, planning and the plotting starts aiming at money, a possession of and a provision for the people thus starting the earth shattering, shirky business till dusk, late in the evening. This part of our odious life and its evil must be undone. So fasting starts from the day break to night break during which period we shall not eat or drink from the shirky money we had earned for our lively hood all these years. Now very important thing to do is to spend the shirky money in the good cause, believing Allah shall make the remaining provisions pure for us. And even more important is that we shall enter our business with fear for Allah and deal with the customers in righteous manner so that Allah will make us prosper in all possible manner.

Thus intercourse as not allowed during day time of fasting is out of purview of fasting and is man-made restriction; and it is not Allah-ordained.

.

Q_student

Intercourse Allowed during the day of fasting

Peace,

Fasting is to make us free from the hateful, contemptuous and despised life of shirk, thus purifying us. A day consists of night and day. During the night part we are made to sleep and Allah relieves us of all our activities so that our committing shirk is in the least. Then as the day breaks we enter into the devising, planning and the plotting starts aiming at money, a possession of and a provision for the people thus starting the earth shattering, shirky business till dusk, late in the evening. This part of our odious life and its evil must be undone. So fasting starts from the day break to night break during which period we shall not eat or drink from the shirky money we had earned for our lively hood all these years. Now very important thing to do is to spend the shirky money in the good cause, believing Allah shall make the remaining provisions pure for us. And even more important is that we shall enter our business with fear for Allah and deal with the customers in righteous manner so that Allah will make us prosper in all possible manner.

Thus intercourse as not allowed during day time of fasting is out of purview of fasting and is man-made restriction; and it is not Allah-ordained.

.

Dear Brother
Why is it so ?
Someone is very keen to have sex before marriage.
Someone is very keen to have intercourse during fasting.
Cann't you guys control yourself ?
Regards

TheNabi

Peace

what is the goal for fasting?

It is a means to righteousness , but what you have described is its practice.

Joe

drfazl

Dear Brother
Why is it so ?
Someone is very keen to have sex before marriage.
Someone is very keen to have intercourse during fasting.
Cann't you guys control yourself ?
Regards

Brother,

It is not the question of control or no control; it is only the question of allowed or not allowed. Control is force on oneself; it is the righteousness that shall guide you and not the force of control. In this angle too the unwarranted restriction on intercourse is man-devised.

Peace.

.

c0de

With regard to valid demonstration and inference In demonstration, can there be invalid demonstration too? That's nice! Then the inference is abstract thought or logical conclusion.

Actually yes... there can be invalid demonstration. Case in point your entire argument on this thread is a perfect example of invalid demonstration. Because it is based in the false premise that abstaining from sex is the cause of impurity. (lol) By this argument, prostitutes and pimps are probably more "pure" then priests and nuns then, yea?

Logic means to be engaged in the learning or understanding process of a subject say, the principles. So keep your cool and be humble while you are in the process of learning the principles, the basic rules of understanding.

Wrong. Logic involves valid demonstration. In that department, you have nothing. Therefore, you can not claim your argument is logical. And by the way, I have no illusions of false humility like you.

Your LOL proves you have run out of points.

LOL... rite... keep telling yourself that chief. )

PeAcE