Intercourse: Allowed During Fasting!
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Peace everyone,
After pondering over 2187, I have come to the conclusion that dr fazl's understanding of intercourse being allowed during the daytime of abstinence is erroneous and incorrect. My reasoning is as follows
2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the abstinence until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the institutions of obedience. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
One has to look at the complete part in bold to see what exactly is included in the abstinence from dawn till night. Please note that it says you shall complete the abstinence until night. It does not say you shall not eat or drink until night. So what exactly is to be abstained from has to be determined by examining the complete part in bold above. "And do not approach them while you are devoted in masaajid" is also part of abstinence so one CANNOT have sex while devoted in the institution of obedience. WHILE ONE IS ABSTAINING ONE IS OBEYING GOD'S COMMAND AND ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY DEVOTED IN THE INSTITUTION OF OBEDIENCE WHILE ABSTAINING, SO NO INTERCOURSE DURING ABSTINENCE. I believe God is very clear on this.
It has been extensively discussed and debated on this forum that "masjid" as used in the great reading can only be "institution of obedience". One can use the search function for the appropriate threads. One can also read the following article for pertinent discussion
http//www.free-minds.org/name
May God guide us all to the truth.
While much appreciating truthseeker's view point, I would like to draw attention to each and every aspect of the ayats here, for furthering the pondering. There are 10 parts in this ayat.
- Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives
- They are garment for you and you are garment for them.
- Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves
- and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you.
- So hold intercourse with them
- and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you,
- and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn.
- Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall
- and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques.
- These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not.
- Thus Allah explains His revelation to mankind that they may fear.
I am taking the first 2 parts of the ayats alone
The first part is about the night and the second part is about the day. As far as the night is concerned, it is out of purview to fasting for fasting is a day time observance. So Allah first removes the confusion caused by the damned reprobates. There ends the first part of the ayat which is not at all concerned with fasting.
Before going to the second part, which expounds about the day time of fasting, let us ponder the first part and come to a conclusion to see if we are arriving at the above observation.
Peace.
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codeI think my laughter indicates amusement at your absurd logic.
c0de,
You only think even now; you are not sure of what you speak even, leave alone logic; and above all absurd logic.Any way coming to logic, Logic is individual branch of philosophy or individualized philosophy that analyses the reasoning on a pattern; and the reasoning is based on interdependence of various events and facts he encountered in his life. Thus logic based on philosophy is an individual's personal outlook or viewpoint. Not only that! A philosopher loves to live by his values as he deems his logic and philosophy fit to be true to his life.
Peace.
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c0de,
You only think even now; you are not sure of what you speak even, leave alone logic; and above all absurd logic.whatever
Any way coming to logic, Logic is individual branch of philosophy or individualized philosophy that analyses the reasoning on a pattern; and the reasoning is based on interdependence of various events and facts he encountered in his life. Thus logic based on philosophy is an individual's personal outlook or viewpoint. Not only that! A philosopher loves to live by his values as he deems his logic and philosophy fit to be true to his life.
(LOL!) That's great professor... now try comparing your definition to the ACTUAL definition of logic, and see if you can see the difference (and the fact that your definition is EXACTLY opposed to the actual definition)
"Logic is the study of the principles of valid demonstration and inference . Logic is a branch of philosophy, a part of the classical trivium, as well as a branch of mathematics and computer science. The word derives from Greek (logike), fem. of (logikos), "possessed of reason, intellectual, dialectical, argumentative", from logos, "word, thought, idea, argument, account, reason, or principle".
Logic concerns the structure of statements and arguments, in formal systems of inference and natural language. Topics include validity, fallacies and paradoxes, reasoning using probability and arguments involving causality. Logic is also commonly used today in argumentation theory."
^^^ Notice how your original argument contains none of what is highlighted in BOLD
but contains much of what is highlighted in REDPeAcE
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"Logic is the study of the principles of valid demonstration and inference
Logic means to be engaged in the learning or understanding process of a subject say, the principles. So keep your cool and be humble while you are in the process of learning the principles, the basic rules of understanding.
With regard to valid demonstration and inference In demonstration, can there be invalid demonstration too? That's nice! Then the inference is abstract thought or logical conclusion.
Then the Logic .... it is not the end neither what you conclude is the Truth.
Your LOL proves you have run out of points.
Welcome.
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Salam,
what is the goal for fasting?
I think it is to abstain what you do usually, eating, drinking and sex.The word SYAM as per Lanes mean exactly that abstain from food, drink and coitus!!!!!
So either you change the definition of the word SYAM either you change your mind.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000473.pdf
best regards
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Salam,
what is the goal for fasting?
I think it is to abstain what you do usually, eating, drinking and sex.The word SYAM as per Lanes mean exactly that abstain from food, drink and coitus!!!!!
So either you change the definition of the word SYAM either you change your mind.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000473.pdf
Intercourse Allowed during the day of fasting
Peace,
Fasting is to make us free from the hateful, contemptuous and despised life of shirk, thus purifying us. A day consists of night and day. During the night part we are made to sleep and Allah relieves us of all our activities so that our committing shirk is in the least. Then as the day breaks we enter into the devising, planning and the plotting starts aiming at money, a possession of and a provision for the people thus starting the earth shattering, shirky business till dusk, late in the evening. This part of our odious life and its evil must be undone. So fasting starts from the day break to night break during which period we shall not eat or drink from the shirky money we had earned for our lively hood all these years. Now very important thing to do is to spend the shirky money in the good cause, believing Allah shall make the remaining provisions pure for us. And even more important is that we shall enter our business with fear for Allah and deal with the customers in righteous manner so that Allah will make us prosper in all possible manner.
Thus intercourse as not allowed during day time of fasting is out of purview of fasting and is man-made restriction; and it is not Allah-ordained.
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Intercourse Allowed during the day of fasting
Peace,
Fasting is to make us free from the hateful, contemptuous and despised life of shirk, thus purifying us. A day consists of night and day. During the night part we are made to sleep and Allah relieves us of all our activities so that our committing shirk is in the least. Then as the day breaks we enter into the devising, planning and the plotting starts aiming at money, a possession of and a provision for the people thus starting the earth shattering, shirky business till dusk, late in the evening. This part of our odious life and its evil must be undone. So fasting starts from the day break to night break during which period we shall not eat or drink from the shirky money we had earned for our lively hood all these years. Now very important thing to do is to spend the shirky money in the good cause, believing Allah shall make the remaining provisions pure for us. And even more important is that we shall enter our business with fear for Allah and deal with the customers in righteous manner so that Allah will make us prosper in all possible manner.
Thus intercourse as not allowed during day time of fasting is out of purview of fasting and is man-made restriction; and it is not Allah-ordained.
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Dear Brother
Why is it so ?
Someone is very keen to have sex before marriage.
Someone is very keen to have intercourse during fasting.
Cann't you guys control yourself ?
Regards -
Dear Brother
Why is it so ?
Someone is very keen to have sex before marriage.
Someone is very keen to have intercourse during fasting.
Cann't you guys control yourself ?
RegardsBrother,
It is not the question of control or no control; it is only the question of allowed or not allowed. Control is force on oneself; it is the righteousness that shall guide you and not the force of control. In this angle too the unwarranted restriction on intercourse is man-devised.
Peace.
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With regard to valid demonstration and inference In demonstration, can there be invalid demonstration too? That's nice! Then the inference is abstract thought or logical conclusion.
Actually yes... there can be invalid demonstration. Case in point your entire argument on this thread is a perfect example of invalid demonstration. Because it is based in the false premise that abstaining from sex is the cause of impurity. (lol) By this argument, prostitutes and pimps are probably more "pure" then priests and nuns then, yea?
Logic means to be engaged in the learning or understanding process of a subject say, the principles. So keep your cool and be humble while you are in the process of learning the principles, the basic rules of understanding.
Wrong. Logic involves valid demonstration. In that department, you have nothing. Therefore, you can not claim your argument is logical. And by the way, I have no illusions of false humility like you.
Your LOL proves you have run out of points.
LOL... rite... keep telling yourself that chief. )
PeAcE
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Actually yes... there can be invalid demonstration. Case in point your entire argument on this thread is a perfect example of invalid demonstration. Because it is based in the false premise that abstaining from sex is the cause of impurity. (lol) By this argument, prostitutes and pimps are probably more "pure" then priests and nuns then, yea? LOL... rite... keep telling yourself that chief.
You are a laughing gas I understand. And you are some student Tom, being taught by some Dick or being tutored by some Harry; you have no originality of your own. Read the entire argument over and over; and again and again. My argument is not at all in those lines. Try your luck again and train yourself as to how read an intuitional message.
Wrong. Logic involves valid demonstration. In that department, you have nothing. Therefore, you can not claim your argument is logical. And by the way, I have no illusions of false humility like you.
Please keep going about your dictionary until you know at least logic can have no place in dictionary. Good Luck!
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PeAcE
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Please keep going about your dictionary until you know at least logic can have no place in dictionary.
I suggest you take a course in basic grammar and syntax, before lecturing others on theological epistemology professor.
My argument is not at all in those lines. Try your luck again and train yourself as to how read an intuitional message.
Actually, I did not misunderstand your "argument", I reduced it to its basic premise. The fact being you never had an actual "argument" to begin with. All you had was an "intuitional message" based on a faulty (and completely laughable) assumption. Basically, a delusion wrapped in a pretense, encased in a suggestion, all posing as an "argument".
You are a laughing gas I understand. And you are some student Tom, being taught by some Dick or being tutored by some Harry; you have no originality of your own.
)
... Im really impressed.
PeAcE
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You are a laughing gas I understand. And you are some student Tom, being taught by some Dick or being tutored by some Harry; you have no originality of your own.
... Im really impressed.
PeAcE
Thanks for your impressive acceptance.
Please keep going about your dictionary until you know at least logic can have no place in dictionary.
I suggest you take a course in basic grammar and syntax, before lecturing others on theological epistemology professor.
Student, you are still at your basics of logic. It is beyond the limits of knowledge and language; Logic has neither language nor grammar; and when you try to frame logic into definition using a language, its grammar and syntax you are very much materialistic speaking theories. You have a long way to go. Good Luck. I will be patient with you, until you learn. Use your syntax and tell me
- What is the Truth?
- What is God?
- What is Life?
- What is death?
- What is belief?
- What is mind?
- What is faith?
I will tell you if you fail. Without conventional application of grammar and syntax I will make you understand. Please try to reach your maturity.
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Asking me the sort of silly questions that Pilate asked Jesus (PBUH) reminds me of an idiot I know.
I take pity on him, as I take pity on you.
But its fine... since we already know you have no hope of actually demonstrating or defending an actual argument. I will leave you to your musings.
PeAcE
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Asking me the sort of silly questions that Pilate asked Jesus (PBUH) reminds me of an idiot I know.
What an idea of grandeur! You Jesus; and I am Pilate!
Which Book did you read? Bible? What you are talking is, may be, the hadith of Jesus, like the Hadith of Muhammad you follow in your religion. Asking such valuable questions seem silly for you; and you believe your tantrums and chatters make sense. You are a pirate simply steal away the pages from any fable of fancy and speak here to make others feel as if you have something to utter. If such questions were thrown at Isa, he would have soulfully considered it as his first duty to answer each and every one of it. Those who follow quran alone can understand the veracity of the prophets and the messengers of Allah.
I take pity on him, as I take pity on you.
Answer the questions!
But its fine... since we already know you have no hope of actually demonstrating or defending an actual argument. I will leave you to your musings.
We means? The entire free-minds are behind you? You must be ashamed to speak a lie like this as any sensible person shall feel. But I know you do not belong to that kind of mentality.
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Which Book did you read? Bible? What you are talking is, may be, the hadith of Jesus, like the Hadith of Muhammad you follow in your religion.
John chapter 18, verse 38 of the Gospel of John
( LoL @ FAIL! )
What an idea of grandeur! You Jesus; and I am Pilate!
yeah !!!
like its my fault you asked the same question )
Answer the questions!
Why? so you can start a fruitless debate to distract from the defeat you suffered at the hands of a "young student" like me? After all, why should someone who is so beneath you in intellect be allowed to get away pretending like he owned you on the internet... rite professor?
The fact is that all people who ask such questions have no actual intention of meaningful discovery. Pilate had no intention of letting Jesus PBUH go free. He just wanted to seem like he did. That is all you want to achieve, a semblance of rationality, is all you are after. A justification of your own bias and ignorance. Your shallowness is amusing, and sad at the same time. Most of you academics are the same (although, I seriously doubt you have any real credentials "doctor". Then again... even if you had a PhD, I have listened to enough useless morons lecturing with a "dr." in front of their name to know such titles are a joke.
The entire free-minds are behind you?
God Forbid!! yuck shudders
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Dear brothers and sisters,
There were no abrogation in Quran. Allah does not correct His own words and ayats. It is only the wrong understanding of the ayat that led the people talk on subjects such as Allah has abrogated the verses of Quran. One of the ayats cited with reference to abrogation is 2 187! Here is an analysis of the ayat in its correct sense.
In 2 187
Thus Ramadhan is explained!
The Myth before the ayat descended; and
The Truth after the ayat descended!The Myth It is not allowed for you to be with your wives on the night of fasting.
The Truth It is allowed for you to be with your wives on the nights of fasting because the fasting period is only during the day time. With this ayat the confusion created by the people then, were given a clear explanation and the controversy ended there.But then, the same confusion persisted with the day time whether it is allowed to be with the wives are not.
The Myth You cannot!
The Truth You can! Allah is aware that you deceive yourselves in privacy; He forgave you with Mercy; It is like passing urine which you have to voluntarily void; It is like passing motion which you have to actively evacuate; similarly so, as the semen builds, fills and swells up it is to be let out in the just manner. So, henceforth make gains with your wives as permitted by Allah.When you shall not be with your wives?
The Myth Do not have intercourse when you are in the mosques in Allah's remembrance
The Truth join not your wives when you are in your houses in Allah's remembrance;-
such is the limit set by Allah; and never trespass; thus Allah makes His signs clear inorder that you may ward off.Please think afresh and say something solidly from your own senses with points valid. It will be greatly appreciated if 1500 years old stories and hear says are not repeated here. Any original contributions?
May Allah Bless Us All In This!
Masha Allah!Ponder over this. Allah has clearly mentioned and Praise the Lord for giving wisdom to Dr.Fazl. Is there any one pondering on this tiny dusty earth for the sake of GOOD. Almighty is keeping patience with us...Oh Lord forgive me for writing this...
Love
Jango O0 -
Most of you academics are the same (although, I seriously doubt you have any real credentials "doctor". Then again... even if you had a PhD, I have listened to enough useless morons lecturing with a "dr." in front of their name to know such titles are a joke.
I have a PhD (Astrophysics) and I have no idea on this subject. Education does not mean intelligence, nor does it mean knowledge or original thought, it only means the ability to retain some information and to regurgitate it when prompted by the right question.
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I have a PhD (Astrophysics) and I have no idea on this subject. Education does not mean intelligence, nor does it mean knowledge or original thought, it only means the ability to retain some information and to regurgitate it when prompted by the right question.
Wise man hmm