Is Rukooh and Sajood part of Salaat ?
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Peace Wakas
I forgot to say, if you meant SBH and the timing aspect to it in AQ, e.g. 20130, then some equate it to the regular timed "salat". Of course, this has no evidence from AQ, and actually, AQ refutes it, because the timings contradict each other if an attempt to match them is made. Now, I say they contradict, but more correctly, when I studied it I tried all possible ways I could think of to make them match but failed, and I have never read a post or article that has managed it. Thus, my conclusion is that they are to be taken as idiomatic expressions, meaning all the time. As far as I'm aware, this is commonly stated in dictionaries and even by traditional scholars.
I haven't followed this thread completely, but I would like to comment on the issue of the timing of salat in relation to whta you mention above, particularly the apparent contradiction that seems to exist regarding this issue.
When our study group recently looked at the concept of salat, the issue of timing came up. What I concluded from our discussions & studies was that these apparent contradictions can be resolved when looking at the concept of salat in terms of a gradual progression like many concepts in the quran. I say this because we find that at times salat is mentioned with specific times mentioned & at other times, for example 1778-79 where a very long period of time is covered. This, to me indicates that at the beginning of Muhammad's mission, when people needed to be concerned with finding their livelihood, they were required to commit to the call to salat (however one interprets salat) at certain times. This seems logical to me as the time they could devote to the salat was limited. As time went on & the society created by following what was revealed in the quran took shape, the needs of society were taken care of through the society, & people now were required to answer the call to salat at any time during the day as they no longer have the pressure of looking for their livelihood in the same way they did before.
This is an opinion based on my understanding of various concepts from the quran. I am currently looking into this issue of the timing of salat in more depth, though & would appreciate any thoughts people may have on this opinion. If necessary we could start another thread as I don't want to detract from the current discussion.
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
The problems/contradictions only arise from the timings related to the term SBH (if one attempts to equate them with salat), not the timings given for SLW. The interpretation you have for 1778 having a long time period is the weaker of the options, and in my opinion is not even viable according to the Quranic evidence. There have been many threads on the timing issue.
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Peace all,
In my last post I have said that "kharra sujjadan" means "fall prostrate", however, I don't think this is the case.
Please compare the following
(Talking about the righteous)
2573 Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall (lam yakhirroo) on them deaf and blind.And
1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from amongst the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the signs of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down making obeisance (kharroo sujjadan), and in tears.
What do you think about the following?
17107 Say, "Acknowledge it or do not acknowledge. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins sujjadan (yakhirroona lil-athqanisujjadan).
17108 They say, "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled."
17109 They fall upon their chins crying (yakhirroona lil-athqaniyabkoona), and it increases them in humility.
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in making your salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 Say, "Praise is to God, who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." Glorify Him greatly.
Would the fact that "chins" is used indicate that we are to prostrate on the chin during salat?
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peace p1993,
I recommend re-reading.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637
I was reading Mustansir Mir's unique work "Verbal Idioms of The Quran" and in it he cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom meaning extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in AQ means to humble oneself before God, and cites a poem by Imru al-Qays* about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they "fell to the chin".
Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325The content and findings in the above 3 posts deserve an article on their own, but alas, I am busy. To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.
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I think it's interesting to note that there's no reference of a (possible) physical sujud to the God. Obviously, Joseph's parents weren't serving/"worshipping" Joseph, when they 'fell prostrate' (12100).
It's also important to study verses like 7120 and 2070. The translations are just not very accurate, IMO. Lam-qaf-ya means thrown/encounter etc, not 'went down' or 'fell'. 2729 is a good starting point.
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peace p1993,
I recommend re-reading.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637
Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598240.msg199419#msg199419Not to mention the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325The content and findings in the above 3 posts deserve an article on their own, but alas, I am busy. To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.
Thanks. I guess 'sujud', 'kharra sujud', etc. isn't about prostration after all.
What is your opinion on 'kharra rikiaan" in 3824? Humbleness/metaphorical kneeling?
I think it's interesting to note that there's no reference of a (possible) physical sujud to the God. Obviously, Joseph's parents weren't serving/"worshipping" Joseph, when they 'fell prostrate' (12100).
It's also important to study verses like 7120 and 2070. The translations are just not very accurate, IMO. Lam-qaf-ya means thrown/encounter etc, not 'went down' or 'fell'. 2729 is a good starting point.
Good point. Also the sjd in 1761, 3873 and other places where God is described as commanding the universal forces and satan to make sjd to Adam...
3873 The angels made sjd, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the ingrates/rejecters.3875 He said, "O Satan, what prevented you from making sjd to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted?"
Good contrast between sjd and being arrogant.
Falling sjd is, IMO, total submission and humility/the complete opposite of arrogance.
17107 Say, "Acknowledge it or do not acknowledge. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins sujjadan.
17109 They fall to their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
It is also interesting that in 17109 there is no 'sjd' - only falling to the chin is being described.
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Peace,
If "salaat" is not physical, but it's only metaphorical, then what is "wudhu"? Is that metaphorical too? How can you have a physical ablution, but then have a non-physical worship following it? If salaat is not literal, then wudhu can't be literal either... So, what is it?
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Peace Ahmad
Peace,
If "salaat" is not physical, but it's only metaphorical, then what is "wudhu"? Is that metaphorical too? How can you have a physical ablution, but then have a non-physical worship following it? If salaat is not literal, then wudhu can't be literal either... So, what is it?
Of course salat is PHYSICAL you stand and PHYSICALLY move your mouth while reciting the quran/recitation, for example; of course the ablution is PHYSICAL as well you PHYSICALLY wash yourself. We are only discussing the meaning of sjd. My current view is that sjd doesnt mean prostration. There is a lot of evidence against the prostration understanding. If you believe otherwise, you are welcome to share your evidence/views.
peace
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3824 can be taken to mean he "fell humbly/inclining and repented", i.e. inclined or became humble to the utmost and repented. This matches the context. I am not sure where "kneeling" comes from but if it is a Classical Arabic meaning then it could mean "fell kneeling".
"khrr" is often used idiomatically to mean "falling absolutely", i.e. doing something to the utmost of it, as exampled in AQ itself, e.g. "fall to the chin", or see 2573 "Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall/khrr on them deaf and blind."
i.e. one should fall upon them hearing and seeing, i.e. give them the utmost attention/thought.
As a side note, there are other Arabic words which can have a meaning of physical prostration, e.g. Kaf-Ba-Ba, Siin-Tay-Ra, Ta-Lam-Lam, Kaf-Ba-Ta.
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In "al salaat" (Gematrical value 162), We pray God There are 6221 verses from the first to the last occurrence of God. 6221 is the the 810 prime number = 5 x 162.
6221 is a prime number but so what?
Where does 810 come from? 810 is not a prime number.
162 is not a prime number.
