al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa

raginggaijin

bravo rotfl laugh x5

Now Now, everyone.....Lets Not Get too Personal... I enjoyed the Comic Relief from Both Wakas and Raginggaijin

Right now, I am dumbfounded....I just dont understand....

1)Why would Prophet Muhammad Stay in Saudi Arabia instead of Jerusalem (Modernday Israel)?

-Wouldnt it make more sense for Him to live in Jeruslaem if THAT is where the True Qibla/House is?

Also, why would these Sunnipengan distorters Intentionally Name two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa) in an effort to INTENTIONALLY Delude Quran-followers(Muslims) into performing a FALSE Hajj? Also, Why would the "Muslims" RULE from Mecca and Medina instead of Rule from Jerusalem?

These are questions that confuse me. Why wouldnt the Muslims "Headcouters" be in Jerusalem in stead of Saudi Arabia?
Many people try to answer this by saying that the Meccan's wanted Political Power?

So they waited till Muhammad Died to infultrate, Distort and then Rule from Mecca? ???
Why wouldnt Muhammad Rule from Jeruslaem?-like the other prophets?

And HAS ANYONE DONE HAJJ IN JERUSALEM? ANYONE AT ALL? or IS ther anyone you have heard about doing it in this day in age?

RA786,

Pray for guidance. Surah 245

Leave it alone, and turn to Allah in patience and prayer. Come to this another time, or when Allah guides you to it. You will know, have faith.

Allah is All Mighty, Wise, Seer. If you are sincere, He will guide you to the Truth.

First Pray for guidance. Surah 245, 2186
And read the Quran. Surah 961

May Allah grant you a goodly provision in this life and in the Hereafter, and spare you from the chastisement of the Fire.

Peace and blessings.

quickduck

Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols. I stand behind the revelation of Allah, the word of the Prophet, the Quran. I will not do it.

How so? What are you striving to sacrifice upon the altar? As said at the beginning

Again, Allah says not to do it in Surah 53. Period. If you choose to sacrifice animals on stones set up, and rationalize it away, that is your choice. No one is making you do it.

And what does Allah tell us to do with the sacrifices of Hajj? We are to "eat of them and feed the poor man who is contented and the beggar" Surah 2236

So we are to eat of this food, the camels, a sign of Allah and His bounty for men.

Are we supposed to eat animals sacrificed on altars/idols/stones set up? No.

So back to your Safa is a stone, Marwa is a fire theory What do you do with the stone, Wakas? Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.

So what again is refuted, Wakas?

Salam all,

come on guys, let's read 2158 again...

God says "there is NO blame" ...for the one DOING the "hajj" to do the act of '' yaTTawwaFa" on/by/with "safaa and marwa".

What i can understand from this verse is that "yattawwafa by safaa and marwa" (whatever does this mean) is actually FORBIDDEN, except during the hajj time where GOD allowed us to do it (there is no blame during hajj, although it's forbidden all the time and everywhere/when else) !!!!!!

Hence, this verse talks about an exception, NOT a rule !

so let's now assume for a minute, that "yattawwafa by safaa and marwa" means "sacrify on stones".

It really makes sense that although it is FORBIDDEN all the time, God ALLOWED it for a specified period, providing that we have to do it ONLY in a matter of remembering God and feeding the poor.

I hope this helps.

Salam

herbman

Peace to all,

I think the right question to be asked is

Do we have to follow superstions or logic?

what is the reading all about?
what is the purpoise of HAJJ according to the Reading?
If 2 mounts are part of the "sacred house", what kind of sign is it?
etc etc

Peace

quickduck

Peace to all,

......

If 2 mounts are part of the "sacred house", what kind of sign is it?
.....

Peace Herbman, all

raigingaijin claims that the 2 moutains are a SIGN that shows us the way we HAVE to GO through in order to reach the Kaaba.
For him, this sign is a kind of " traffic sign " (circulation) , or like the Lighthouse used by the boats to reach the coast. rotfl

Wakas

Peace raginggaijin,

You now say "Allah says not to sacrifice on stones set up, be they altars or idols." then later in your post say "Do you sacrifice upon it, like an altar? If you do, you are not allowed to eat the meat as per Surah 53.".

It seems you are confused as to what 53 says, so let us clarify, I shall re-quote myself

Unfortunately for you, the Arabic says otherwise. Let me make it clear for you what 53 says, the animals/food forbidden to us are

wama thubiha AAala al nnusubi
and what slaughtered/sacrificed on the altars / idolatrous altars

Pay attention to the word in bold. Further, the verb "thubiha" is in the passive perfect, meaning an action done/completed, and the subject (i.e. animal) received the action expressed in the verb.

It is 100% clear from 53 what is forbidden and that is meat/animals slaughtered on the (idolatrous) altars, NOT the general act of slaughtering on a stone set up as you seemingly imply.

Once you clarify what you take from 53, and are consistent with it, then we can discuss your other points.

Oh, and thanks for the jocular application of "rocket surgery", I did not know that. Guess I missed your "jocular" reference in amongst your tirade.

peace quickduck,
Interesting thought with the no blame upon them, and why. I already discussed this in the hajj/feast/debate thread, but what you said can add an additional point to what I said. The evidence is mounting up.

RA786

Peace Herbman, all

raigingaijin claims that the 2 moutains are a SIGN that shows us the way we HAVE to GO through in order to reach the Kaaba.
For him, this sign is a kind of " traffic sign " (circulation) , or like the Lighthouse used by the boats to reach the coast. rotfl

To be honest thats exactly what I thought (or think) the Sighns are For the Following Reason.

The Quran is constant in History menaing it is relevent to both the Past,Present, and Future.
-So, Obviously in our day in age....The Qibla, Holy Shrine, and Masjid Al-haram was LOST.
Would it be Illogical to think that in an effort to keep the Qibla (holy shrine/masjid-Al-Harem) KNOWN...a Sighn is Needed? Sign as in a Landmark or some sort?
A Wall can be destroyed....a Stone can be Detroyed...a Stick in the Ground can be detroyed...heck...EVEN the Ka'bah HAS been destroyed a Bunch of times...
what is somthing can Cannot Easily be destroyed by Man's Hands?---Moreover... What landmark for THOUSANDS of years CANNOT be destroyed by ANYTHING other than the Earth?

AnswerA Mountain!, thats my logic/justification for somekind of Landmark that would be easily identifiable and Durable so people can find it.

Let me ask this Question to all of you.

Is it at all possible that Safa and Marwa Do infact mean Stone set for Sacrificing (or as Wakas pointed out) BUT ALSO is the NAME of two mountains that the people of Mecca named? Can we BOTH be right?

For instance, Here raises another Question... In Pretty much ALL Histroy that can be obtained (please Correct me if I am Wrong)....People Both MUSLIM and NON-MUSLIM have ALWAYS called the two mountains in Mecca (Safa and Marwa). They to my knowledge (please correct me If I am Wrong) have NEVER been called Anything other than Safa and Mawra (or at least thats why Prophet Muhammad's people at his time Called them).

So if these ARE the Official Names OF the Mountains and We intrepret them as such...Does this Change ot make the Verse Illogical? Allah speaks to Men in HIS language. If in the Classical Arabic Language of Mecca 600AD, Safra and Marwa Ment (definition what Waka posted) but ALSO were the Names of two Mountains....
which one do you think the people Followed? according to Traditionalist Muslims...It would be the Mountains. What do you all think? would that be Confusing?

Why would they name the two mountains those names?

RA786

Wakas, in your intrepretation....
why would your view of Safa and Mawrah be Quote Indeed, a§-êafa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah.?

Why/how would the Camel and Heavy Goat milk be two Monumentus Sighns/Symbols/workings of/decrees of Allah?
and then my next question would be 1)how is that relevent to Hajj and also 2) How do you Circle/walk around them?

Question for Anybody else Is there any History of Pre-Islamic People Sacrificing Animals (or humans) on these Two Knolls(mountains)?
Why would the Deliberatly Name these two structures Safa(Rock) and Marwah (Flint Stone)?

hope4

Selam

Is there evidene that Safa and Marwa were the names of these mountains pre-Islami times?

Or could it have come from this story

In Islamic tradition, Ibrahim was commanded by Allah to leave his wife Hagar and their infant son alone in the desert, with only basic provisions, to test their faith. The place was between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah. When their provisions were exhausted, Hagar went in search of help or water. To make her search easier and faster, she went alone, leaving the infant Ishmael on the ground. She first climbed the nearest hill, Al-Safa, to look over the surrounding area. When she saw nothing, she then went to the other hill, Al-Marwah, to look around. While Hagar was on either hillside, she was able to see Ishmael and know he was safe. However, when she was in the valley between the hills she was unable to see her son. Thus Hagar would run while in the valley between the hills and walk at a normal pace while on the hillsides.

Hagar travelled back and forth between the hills seven times in the scorching heat before she returned to Ishmael. When she arrived, she found that a spring had sprouted forth from the crying baby kicking at the sand with his feet. This spring is now known as the Zamzam Well. This Zamzam Well was granted from the angels of Allah to reward Hagar. ana ahmed we ana moslem

peace

RA786

Peace Hope4,
Yes , Right, I have heard this Hadith a couple times.

Here is some Issues though.

Hagar,Ishmael, and Abraham was in Babalonian times...(before Moses and the egyptian fight, and obviously before Muhammad)
...So Is it possible that this Story of Hagar emerged 1st and then the Pegan Story about a Godess running forth with a Baby and such (that Ayman posted) Emereged 2nd and was BASED off of the 1st?--(just with added distortions and Added innovations?)
If we can PROVE as much as possible that the NAMES of the two Hills have ALWAYS BEEN Safa and Mawrah, can we then agree that Intrepereting them as such in the Quran isnt really That Illogical?

hope4

If we can PROVE as much as possible that the NAMES of the two Hills have ALWAYS BEEN Safa and Mawrah, can we then agree that Intrepereting them as such in the Quran isnt really That Illogical?

Selam RA786

The question is how to prove it? ancient maps might be the answer if any of you have any lying around ;D

peace

RA786

Selam RA786

The question is how to prove it? ancient maps might be the answer if any of you have any lying around ;D

peace

Brother Rajj... explained to me that Ancient Roman Mansucripts beared the sames Safa and Mawra (for these hills), as well as ANY search on google.
So the question now is are we going to DENY Calling these two Hills Safa and Mawrah because We cannot Find an Ancient Map that says So?-Thus being Guilty of a Logical Fallacy?

Or are we going to ACCEPT these two Hills as "Safa and Mawra" because All of our Reasearch "SO FAR" says So...?--Thus STILL guilty of a Logical Fallacy?
I choose to Accept this Theory until Proven otherwise. rather then stay in Limbo like an Agnostic not being able to Prove or disprove ANYTHING.

I read the Same Thread on Edips 19.org and had some interesting things here http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/55649/0/?srch=Hajj#msg_55649

I think that the Quran IS talking about Safa and Mawra being Mountains... All mof my logic so far points More to this then to Goats milk and Stone for sacrificing that you make circles around.

D peace

herbman

Peace,

the only mountain named in the Reading is Tur sinina, Mt Sinai, and nobody knows where it is. Safa and Marwa are not described as mountain in the Reading cause NO TUR before the nouns safa and marwa. The same occurs for valley of Bakka, no valley "wadi" before Bakka as AL "bialwadi almuqaddasi tuwan " (Behold, thy Lord did call to him in the sacred valley to Tuwa) 7816

To make it short no way to know if it is a noun or a proper name in arabic, how do you think Allah swt would do to let you know it?

Regards

RA786

Peace,

the only mountain named in the Reading is Tur sinina, Mt Sinai, and nobody knows where it is. Safa and Marwa are not described as mountain in the Reading cause NO TUR before the nouns safa and marwa. The same occurs for valley of Bakka, no valley "wadi" before Bakka as AL "bialwadi almuqaddasi tuwan " (Behold, thy Lord did call to him in the sacred valley to Tuwa) 7816

To make it short no way to know if it is a noun or a proper name in arabic, how do you think Allah swt would do to let you know it?

Regards

Salaam Herb thanks for your reply. okay so they are not called "mtountains"...more specifically Knolls or Hills. whatever.
Nobody knows where mt.sinai is? I've heard that it is in Saudi Arabia. have you seen the documentary on that?..who knows...
anyway...to me the context makes more sense as (saf and mawra being hills)

What makes more sense to you herb? How do you intrepret the verese?
Peace.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace all

While I am pretty busy at the moment preparing for a conference, hajj is something that is currently a subject that I am investigating, so I thought I'd most this contribution.

The following is something I posted on another thread that seemed to come to an abrupt end after my post. I'm not sure why this happened as I would was looking forward to some input on my findings. While these findings are still a work in progress, I have copied & pasted from the other thread below. I look forward to some comments & hope that it adds some food for thought in the current thread.

Peace All

I have recently started looking at the concept of hajj in preparation for our quranic discussion group. I am in the process of studying it & have looked at 2158. This is how I have interpreted it. As I said, my study of this subject is a work in progress, so your comments will be welcome.

I have found to mean "the clarification" based on its primary root verb meaning of "he clarified/brought clarity, etc."
When looking at , I found it difficult to pinpoint a root verb for what most consider to be the root, i.e "miim-raa-waw". I then considered the possibility of the root being "miim-raa-alif". This pointed to a root verb indcating a process by which one extracts that which is wholesome/good, etc.
seems to indicate intimate knowledge from its root verb.
When I looked at , I found that the it incorporated the idea of a debate/argument in the sense of overcoming someone through the use of evidence, which seems to be a common understanding on this forum. I also noticed that "to aim at something or having a goal in mind", also it has a meaning of "curing or repairing" something. This last meaning may be mostly in relation to the curing of a head wound, which could be extended to " curing the wrong thinking about something (or maybe this extension is stretching it too far?). Either way, I have come to a meaning of "aiming at the curing of wrong thinking through the use of evidence" or "correcting an erroneous concept through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments".
I was surprised to see that the word is derived from a root that carries a meaning of spending the night awake considering any number of things (good or bad).
The word , being form 8 of the verb would indicate the act that results if the form 1 verb was initiated. Therefore I think that in this case it would indicate that the living/acting out of the conclusions reached through the deliberation of , which at its culmination will provide the most convincing evidence that of the decisions taken since the benefits will be plain for all to see.
indicates acknowledgment of efforts by providing abundantly.

Using these conclusions, this is how I would interpret the verse

Truly the clarification and extraction of what is good from the intimate knowledge possessed by God is for those who aim at correcting/curing/repairing erroneous concepts through the presentation of strong evidence/arguments, staying awake at night to ponder these concepts or living the conclusions reached through such deliberation and in so doing provide the ultimate proof of these concepts through their concrete results. There is no blame on him if he moves about and attaches himself to them (clarification and extraction). And they who effect the obedience of what is good, then truly God is acknowledging of the efforts of such people by providing abundant nourishment as proof of their success, Knowledgable.

Imraan

hope4

Selam

May help.

http//www.scribd.com/doc/19742957/Aad-and-Thamud

peace

Wakas

peace RA786,

I recommend reading the link I posted in this very thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8795.msg40400#msg40400

RA786

Thank you Wakas, Ill check it out. D

Thanks hope4 for that article at Scribes, I read it...

Here the thing though, IF We are to believe that Jerusalam in where the Masjid-Al-harem is (hajj to be condictued)
Is this Still possible in these days? Especially with a totally satanic-zinost government in power in isreal?
This may be off topic, i just find it ironic that the City of Peace and Supposed to be City of God is now totally pegan,zionist,satanic and non-religious.

and another Question. To prevent Confusion...Why doesnt The Quran Just SAY the City where Hajj is to be Performed?
Like just SAY Jerusalam or Mecca?

(Allah forgive me for questioning,)

And Why wouldnt Muhammad Convnice the Sahaba (and Muslims) to Travel to Jerusalem with him and then Put and END to the Kab'ah?
Really think about that Question...again...

WHY DIDNT MUHAMMAD Go with the Muslims to Jerusalam and put an END to the Kab'ah?
WHY? I would really really like to know...

amin

Salaam all,

Please check this page and search for sapha or safa, we can get some understanding about the origin.

Copied from this link... http//islamicweb.com/bible/good3.htm
........................................

Now, what does the word Mispa mean? It is generally translated into a "watch-tower." It belongs to that class of Semitic nouns - Asma Zarf - which take or drive their name from the thing that they enclose or contain. Mispa is the place or building which derives its name from sapha, an archaic word for "stone." The usual word for stone in Hebrew is iben, and in Arabic hajar. The Syriac for stone is kipa. But safa or sapha seems to be common to them all for some particular object or person when designated as a "stone." Hence the real meaning of Mispa is the locality or place in which a sapha or stone is set and fixed. It will be seen that when this name, Mispa, was first given to the stone erected upon a heap of stone blocks, there was no edifice built around it. It is the spot upon which a sapha rests, that is called Mispa.

Before explaining the signification of the noun sapha I have to tax again the patience of those of my readers who are not acquainted with the Hebrew. The Arabic language lacks the p sound in its alphabet just as much as do the Hebrew and other Semitic languages, in which the letter p, like g, is sometimes soft and is pronounced like f or ph. In English, as a rule, the Semitic and Greek words containing f sound are transliterated and written by the insertion of "ph" instead of "f," e.g. Seraph, Mustapha, and Philosophy. It is in accordance with this rule that I prefer to write this word sapha to safa.

------------- Footnote (1) The Bible which I consult does not contain the so-called deutro- canonical or Apocryphal books of the Old Testament. This Bible is published by the American Bible Society (New York 1893 ) . The title runs thus Kthahhi Qaddishi Dadiathiqi Wadiathiqi Khadatt An Shad-wath Poushaqa dmin lishani qdimaqi. Matha 'ta d'dasta. Biblioneta d' America . ------------- End of footnote

When Jesus Christ surnamed his first disciple Shim'on (Simon) with the significant title of "Petros" (Peter), he must evidently have had in his mind this ancient sacred Sapha which had been lost long ago! But, alas! we cannot positively set out the exact word which he expressed in his own language. The Greek form Petros in the masculine gender - Petra in the feminine - is so unclassical and unGreek, that one is astonished at its being ever adopted by the Churches. Did Jesus or any other Jew ever dream of calling the fisherman Bar Yona, Petros? Decidedly not. The Syriac version called Pshitta has frequently rendered this Greek form into Kipha (Kipa). And the very fact that even the Greek text has preserved the original name "Kephas," which the English versions have reproduced in the shape of "Cephas," shows that Christ spoke the Aramaic language and gave the surname "Kipha" to his principal disciple.

The old Arabic versions of the New Testament have frequently written St. Peter's name as "Sham'un' as-Sapha"; that is to say, "Simon the Stone." The words of Christ "Thou art Peter," etc., have their equivalent in the Arabic version in the form of "Antas-Sapha" (Matt. xvi. 18; John i. 42, etc.).

It follows, therefore, that if Simon is the Sapha, the Church which was to be built on it would naturally be the Mispha. That Christ should liken Simon to Sapha and the Church to Mispha is very remarkable; but when I come to divulge the mystery hidden in this similitude and the wisdom embodied in the Sapha, then it must be accepted as the most marvelous truth of Prophet Muhammad's merit to his glorious title 'THE MUSTAPHA'!

From what has been stated above, our curiosity would naturally lead one to ask the following questions -

(a) Why did the Muslims and Unitarian descendants of Abraham choose a stone to perform their religious service on or around it? (b) Why should this particular stone be named sapha? (c) What is the writer driving at? And so on - perhaps several others.

The stone was selected as the best suitable material upon which a traveling devotee offered his sacrifice, poured his pure oil and wine, (1) and performed his religious services around it. It was more than this; this stone was erected to commemorate the vows and certain promises which a prophet or righteous man made to his Creator, and the revelation he received from God. Consequently, it was a sacred monument to perpetuate the memory and the sacred character of a great religious event. For such a purpose no other material could surpass the stone. Not only does the solidity and durability of the stone make it suitable for that purpose, but its mere simplicity, cheapness, worthlessness in a lonely place would guarantee it against any attraction of human avarice or enmity to steal or destroy it. As is well known, the Law of Moses strictly forbids to hew or carve the stones of the altar. The stone called Sapha was to be absolutely left natural; no images, inscriptions, or engravings were to be wrought upon it, lest any one of these should be worshipped in time to come by the ignorant people. Gold, iron silver, or any other metal, could not answer all these qualities required in the simple stone. It will be understood, therefore, that the purest, the most durable, eligible, and the safest material for a religious and sacred monument could be none other than the stone.

....................

RA786

Well I read this Book created by One of the Free-minders...(i think it was Lyth)?
called the National Republic...
I guess it pretty much sums it all up and explains safa and mawrah as being Stone for sacrfices...AND sighns/markers which is then connected with the Temple Mount Rock Dome in Jerusalam.

It goes into the Calendar and Ramadan....which I was totally confused...
(Ramadan AND the Night of Decree/Conception of Jesus IS in December/winter Solance?!??! as well as 10 days?) ??? )

you can read it here http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/TNR.pdf

So IF the Hajj AND Qibla IS supposed to be at the Rock Dome...Do we Circle that and say La-illaha-illala-wadahulashareek-alah? rotfl

(to be honest I was looking foreward to Circle a Building 7 times screaming the Shahada! yes)
and what about Praying/Prostrating at it like We (or used to) do at the Ka'bah?
Do you Freeminders Prostrate to the Dome of Rock?
Do you Freeminders Plan on going to the Dome of Rock for Hajj anytime Soon?
Has ANYone here on this site ever went to do the Hajj their yet?

Peace/Salaam

herbman

Peace RA786,

If you use the search tool, you will find lots of debates about qibla/masjid alharam/Becca/Safa and Marwa /Hajj etc..

My personal conclusion are

qibla (accept God direction= the good path) , doing good things and prohibit the wrong is the good direction
masjid al haram= is not a location, I am studying it and my searches lead me to massajid ="religious practice" while haram is the forbiden, other seems to think it means "The Institution of Obedience".
Becca= with crowd
safa and marwa (stone, camel or goat, clarification, and extraction), for this one I am more with bro 1CELOSTNOWFOUND findings.
Hajj= argumentation/debate
hajj al beit= debate/argue for God's "social" system

Peace