Stoning Punishment in the Bible
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Peace Rami
I worship No Thing ! Did I say anything about the King of Egypt ? I thought we were talking about "Stoning Punishment in The Bible" ? Obviously , I was wrong ;D peace
almarh0m
Peace,
OK. Actually stoning is simply capital punishment so it can be translated today as capital punishment by firearms ie. bullet=stone. In Islam, murderers and corruptors should be put to death.
What about lashing and cutting the thieves hand and beating women?? They are plainly ordered in the Quran. Are they backward too? According to the modern world, it is madness to follow them.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace,
The reason why corporeal punishment is preferred over prison is that much more cheaper and its a real penalty. Prison is actually a vacation. Yes, it causes some trauma but it wastes alot of money for no reason. The modern world can do this because of the usurious banking systems. While the poor is working 24 hours a day and starving to death, the governments are spending lots of money for confining its prisoners. In a non-usurious economy, corporeal punishemnt is the ideal way. This money should go to the poor rather than giving a free time for the wicked.
Pharaoh had this ability because he stole the fruit of labor of his servants by TAX so he was able to maintain a prison system. One of the reason why God was mad at Pharaoh that he enslaved the Israelites economically by TAXING them and distributing it to the undeedy preferred class.
It also explains why Solomon was actually a poor King but was given powers and gifts from God. God won't allow His servant to store gold and silver while His other servants starve.
Yeah, don't tell anyone. I am deep.
Peace,
Rami
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Peace Rami
Lashings , cutting off hands and beating up women in the Qur'an , if we take those verses literally , I will be one of the first to say that Yes , they are backward and cruel . One of the reasons I am in this forum is , to better my understanding of the Qur'an so that I can be a better human being . If literal understanding or just knowledge that is required , then , even children can learn and translate the Qur'an literally . I believe we need more than just literal knowledge of the Qur'an , sure we need the knowlege but we also need the wisdom to thoroughly understand and appreciate what is in the Great Message .
almarh0m
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Peace Rami
Lashings , cutting off hands and beating up women in the Qur'an , if we take those verses literally , I will be one of the first to say that Yes , they are backward and cruel . One of the reasons I am in this forum is , to better my understanding of the Qur'an so that I can be a better human being . If literal understanding or just knowledge that is required , then , even children can learn and translate the Qur'an literally . I believe we need more than just literal knowledge of the Qur'an , sure we need the knowlege but we also need the wisdom to thoroughly understand and appreciate what is in the Great Message .
almarh0m
Just because the Koran sanctions them on the people of Medina it does not mean they are Divine law. I am not sure if there is amputation in the Koran anyways. There is no capital punishment enforced in the Koran that I am aware of. But these are besides the point. The community of Medina are humans like anyobody else and public policy is not what the Koran came for. At least thats how I see the Koran. Muhammad's biography was somewhat different than other prophets and there was a community under his authority and the Koran brought verses down to guide them. But its not the main aim of the Koran and even if Muhammad was never in a position of political power, this would not have changed the emphasis of the Koran. Muhmammad's job in the Koran is clearly mentioned and its a job of a preacher. I do not believe we must only consider Muhammad's biography and ignore the other prophets. Each prophet had his circumstances and I do not believe we are to confine God within the limits of a prophet's life experience.
But we can not pass judgement on other societies that lived before us. The people of Medina lived 1,4000 years ago. They have their circumstances and cultural norms and we have ours. The Koran never spoke in a language beyond the people of its time and yet it can be understood by us also. The OT also speaks in a language of the people of its time and yet I can still understand it. What I like to look at is what are the theological implication of the Koran and OT. I don't look for it for theocratic guidelines as both these scriptures are not designed as such. The OT, unlike the Koran, is not a theological Book but it has obvious theological themes. The Koran is dominated by theological themes. Even when it dwelled occassionally in public policy, its main emphasis was always theological. And in that the Koran is unique. A look at the stories of the prophets in the Koran clearly shows the major theological themes in it. The Koran is God-centric. And its main emphasis is to influence and guide the reader into these theological themes. The OT is more concerned with stating events and rarely has theological biases. It is not the intention of the scribes of the OT to influence your theological understanding.
- Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (or symbols) for seekers (after Truth).
This is clearly an introduction where the theological emphasis is clearly laid out. Its intention is obvious, so we know eher the Koran is going. This is not the OT, its made for the Israelite community many of them these stories are legends and maybe even myths.
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When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge thus do We reward those who do right.
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But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him from his (true) self she fastened the doors, and said "Now come, thou (dear one)!" He said "(Allah) forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!"
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He said "O my Lord! the prison is more to my liking than that to which they invite me Unless Thou turn away their snare from me, I should (in my youthful folly) feel inclined towards them and join the ranks of the ignorant."
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He said "Before any food comes (in due course) to feed either of you, I will surely reveal to you the truth and meaning of this ere it befall you that is part of the (duty) which my Lord hath taught me. I have (I assure you) abandoned the ways of a people that believe not in Allah and that (even) deny the Hereafter.
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"And I follow the ways of my fathers,- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and never could we attribute any partners whatever to Allah. that (comes) of the grace of Allah to us and to mankind yet most men are not grateful
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He said "Shall I trust you with him with any result other than when I trusted you with his brother aforetime? But Allah is the best to take care (of him), and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy!"
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Further he said "O my sons! enter not all by one gate enter ye by different gates. Not that I can profit you aught against Allah (with my advice) None can command except Allah. On Him do I put my trust and let all that trust put their trust on Him."
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And when they entered in the manner their father had enjoined, it did not profit them in the least against (the plan of) Allah. It was but a necessity of Jacob's soul, which he discharged. For he was, by our instruction, full of knowledge (and experience) but most men know not.
So we can clearly see the Koran is made for believers and is made to guide you theologically, it relates the stories with these theological emphasis as a guidance for the believers. People who are not believers will have little use for these theological themes.
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And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom
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"O my Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on me some power, and taught me something of the interpretation of dreams and events,- O Thou Creator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my Protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous."
This is the lesson.
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Peace,
Actually my Question about it is ?
Is this punishment of stoning in the real Bible or some Fabricated one? In other words is this stoning Punishment DIVINE or Man made?Qur'an contains in it the prior scriptures else no need to repeat the same stories; therefore, no stoning in Quran and likewise no stoning in prior scriptures.
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Peace,
Qur'an contains in it the prior scriptures else no need to repeat the same stories; therefore, no stoning in Quran and likewise no stoning in prior scriptures.
Salaam
Thanks for reply. What do you want to say?
Do you want to say Bible is not divine scripture or Bible is CORRUPTED ?Qur'an contains in it the prior scriptures else no need to repeat the same stories
Do you want to say that Quran contains whole Bible in it ?
Regards -
Peace,
Thanks for reply. What do you want to say?
Do you want to say Bible is not divine scripture or Bible is CORRUPTED ?What bible, there are 100's of books according to someone popping up from the deserts...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
As far hadith on this subject, not sure if true, although makes sense and something which my prophet (God bless him) might say ...
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 812
Narrated Anas bin Malik
While I was with the Prophet a man came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed a legally punishable sin; please inflict the legal punishment on me'.' The Prophet did not ask him what he had done. Then the time for the prayer became due and the man offered prayer along with the Prophet , and when the Prophet had finished his prayer, the man again got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed a legally punishable sin; please inflict the punishment on me according to Allah's Laws." The Prophet said, "Haven't you prayed with us?' He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Allah has forgiven your sin." or said, "....your legally punishable sin." -
Peace,
What bible, there are 100's of books according to someone popping up from the deserts...
http//www.earlychristianwritings.com/
As far hadith on this subject, not sure if true, although makes sense and something which my prophet (God bless him) might say ...
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 812
Narrated Anas bin Malik
While I was with the Prophet a man came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed a legally punishable sin; please inflict the legal punishment on me'.' The Prophet did not ask him what he had done. Then the time for the prayer became due and the man offered prayer along with the Prophet , and when the Prophet had finished his prayer, the man again got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed a legally punishable sin; please inflict the punishment on me according to Allah's Laws." The Prophet said, "Haven't you prayed with us?' He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Allah has forgiven your sin." or said, "....your legally punishable sin."Dear Brother
My concern is only upto Bible.
Do you want to say that the Bible is corrupted .This Punishment is not present in original bible the Bible ? Did I correctly get your point of view ?
Any evidence for it ?
Secondly ,when Quran endorsed the Old Scriptures (Musaddiqan) ,which Bible was present Original or Corrupted one ? Should I assume the Quran endorsed the Corrupted Bible ?Regards
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Dear Brother
My concern is only upto Bible.
Do you want to say that the Bible is corrupted .This Punishment is not present in original bible the Bible ? Did I correctly get your point of view ?
Any evidence for it ?
Secondly ,when Quran endorsed the Old Scriptures (Musaddiqan) ,which Bible was present Original or Corrupted one ? Should I assume the Quran endorsed the Corrupted Bible ?Regards
Stoning is nothing compared to "massacre" command found in Deuteronomy..
"When Yahweh your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and occupy, and he clears away many nations before you ? the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites...and when Yahweh your God gives them over to you...you must utterly destroy them voodoo...Show them no mercy... >For you are a people holy to Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession
(Deuteronomy 7.1-11).Salam / Peace
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Peace Q_student,
My concern is only upto Bible.
Do you want to say that the Bible is corrupted .This Punishment is not present in original bible the Bible ? Did I correctly get your point of view ?
Any evidence for it ?
Secondly ,when Quran endorsed the Old Scriptures (Musaddiqan) ,which Bible was present Original or Corrupted one ? Should I assume the Quran endorsed the Corrupted Bible ?Regards
Read Qur'an in context, Qur'an only endorses Qur'an...
Quran 217-8
And We did not send before you except men/humans, We inspire to them, so question the reminder's people if you were not knowing. And We did not create them a body, they do not eat the food, and they were not immortal.1643-44 And We did not send from before you except men/humans, We inspire to them, so question the reminder's people, if you (kuntum/plural) were not knowing. With the evidences and The Books, and We descended to you the reminder to show to the people what was descended to them, and perhaps they think.
Asks rhetorical question for reader to ponder on the answer were they not human?
Luke 24
he said to them, 'Have ye anything here to eat?' 42 and they gave to him part of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb, 43 and having taken, he did eat before them.Contradicts Qur'an...
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 2223-24
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 2118-21
John 19
17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha; 18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, on this side, and on that side, and Jesus in the midst.Quran came to confirm the truth 4157...They never killed him and never crucified him
Kindest regards
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Peace,
Qur'an contains in it the prior scriptures else no need to repeat the same stories; therefore, no stoning in Quran and likewise no stoning in prior scriptures.
They said, "O Shu`aib, we do not comprehend many of the things you are telling us, and we see that you are powerless among us. If it were not for your tribe, we would have stoned you. You have no value for us."
"If they discover you, they will stone you, or force you to revert to their religion, then you can never succeed."
He said, "Have you forsaken my gods, O Abraham? Unless you stop, I will stone you. Leave me alone."
They said, "Unless you refrain, O Noah, you will be stoned."
They said, "We consider you bad omens. Unless you refrain, we will surely stone you, or afflict you with painful retribution."
And surely I take refuge with my Lord and your Lord that you should stone me to death''
Seems like it was the norm back then. Don't you think? There are many references in the Koran to stoning and I would not be surprised if societies of early Arabia were the same.
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Seems like it was the norm back then. Don't you think? There are many references in the Koran to stoning and I would not be surprised if societies of early Arabia were the same.
Back then it was easy to pick up a rock and bash someone's head in, and look who was being threatened.
There is no stoning punishment in Qur'an the final authority -- period.
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Back then it was easy to pick up a rock and bash someone's head in, and look who was being threatened.
There is no stoning punishment in Qur'an the final authority -- period.
Final authority for what?
5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Seems pretty much what people at the time practiced. Why would stoning to death be so different from crucifixion or execution or cutting the hands and feet from oppossite sides. Its what the Romans, Assyrians, Persians and everybody else practiced. This is their cultural norms. We may not see it like that but the Koran came down to humns. maybe 200 years from now people could look at us and see us as barbaric. Its all relative. I do not see these as Divine laws. Maybe thats the difference between me and some here. I don't see the Koran as a theocratic scripture. To me its a theological Book. But I think it does not make any sense to see stoning as something barbaric. The people at the time saw it as a way of punsihment and certainly the Koran did not see crucifxion, which is more painful than stoning, as anything but the norms of the audience.
God punishes with hell, forget about stoning and execution. These are child games compare to hell fire.
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Final authority for what?
5.33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Seems pretty much what people at the time practiced. Why would stoning to death be so different from crucifixion or execution or cutting the hands and feet from oppossite sides. Its what the Romans, Assyrians, Persians and everybody else practiced. This is their cultural norms. We may not see it like that but the Koran came down to humns. maybe 200 years from now people could look at us and see us as barbaric. Its all relative. I do not see these as Divine laws. Maybe thats the difference between me and some here. I don't see the Koran as a theocratic scripture. To me its a theological Book. But I think it does not make any sense to see stoning as something barbaric. The people at the time saw it as a way of punsihment and certainly the Koran did not see crucifxion, which is more painful than stoning, as anything but the norms of the audience.
God punishes with hell, forget about stoning and execution. These are child games compare to hell fire.
You can fight with rocks, bottles, guns, knives, bombs, fists, wild dogs, whatever while waging war; that is not the issue.
Let's not kid ourselves -- Q_student raised this topic of stoning pertaining to the punishment for adultery; Qur'an says lashes in public while the traditionalists all point back to hadith stories propagating bible stories as their source.
Qur'an is the final authority on the punishment which is flogging -- period.
To say otherwise is a lie, simple as that, and I don't care what some supposed according to so and so Bible says.
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Peace Q_student,
Read Qur'an in context, Qur'an only endorses Qur'an...
Quran 217-8
And We did not send before you except men/humans, We inspire to them, so question the reminder's people if you were not knowing. And We did not create them a body, they do not eat the food, and they were not immortal.1643-44 And We did not send from before you except men/humans, We inspire to them, so question the reminder's people, if you (kuntum/plural) were not knowing. With the evidences and The Books, and We descended to you the reminder to show to the people what was descended to them, and perhaps they think.
Asks rhetorical question for reader to ponder on the answer were they not human?
Luke 24
he said to them, 'Have ye anything here to eat?' 42 and they gave to him part of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb, 43 and having taken, he did eat before them.Contradicts Qur'an...
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 2223-24
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 2118-21
John 19
17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha; 18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, on this side, and on that side, and Jesus in the midst.Quran came to confirm the truth 4157...They never killed him and never crucified him
Kindest regards
Dear Brother Eid Salaam ;
You said
Read Qur'an in context, Qur'an only endorses Qur'an...
This statement of you came out in reply of my question if the Quran endorses Bible ,if yes then which corrupted or uncorrupted.
What I get from your reply that Quran does not endorse Bible but only Quran .While Quran clearly mentions at many placesIf this endorsement is not about previous scripture then what is meant by this term of . Waiting for explanation please.
In one of you next post you saidLet's not kid ourselves -- Q_student raised this topic of stoning pertaining to the punishment for adultery; Qur'an says lashes in public while the traditionalists all point back to hadith stories propagating bible stories as their source.
May I ask you where did I raise the question about "stoning as a punishment of adultery". I raised the question as a general punishment of stoning in the Bible for not only adultery rather for more than 14 crimes.Have a look on the list.
Torah
The Torah of the Jews, which is contained in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and as such serves as a common religious reference, prescribes death by stoning for a long series of offenses, namelyTouching Mount Sinai while God was giving Moses the Ten Commandments (Exodus 1913)
An ox that gores someone to death should be stoned (Exodus 212
Breaking the Shabbat (Numbers 1532-36)
Giving one's "seed" (presumably one's offspring) "to Molech" (Leviticus 202-5)
Having a "familiar spirit" (or being a necromancer) or being a "wizard" (Lev. 2027)
Cursing God (Lev. 2410-16)
Engaging in idolatry (Deuteronomy 172-7) or seducing others to do so (Deut. 137-12)
"Rebellion" against parents (Deut. 21,21)
Getting married as though a virgin, when not a virgin (Deut. 2213-21)
Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman engaged to another man (both should be stoned, Deut. 2223-24)Mishna
The Mishna gives the following list of persons who should be stoned (Sanhedrin Chapter 7, p. 53a )A man who has sexual intercourse with one of the following (see Lev. 20, which however does not specify the form of execution)
his mother
his father's wife
his daughter-in-law
another man
an animal ("bestiality"
A woman who allows an animal to have sexual intercourse with her
A blasphemer
An idolater
One who gives his seed to Molech
A necromancer or wizard
One who desecrates the sabbath
One who curses his father and mother
One who has sexual intercourse with a betrothed maiden
One who incites or instigates (toward idolatry)
A sorcerer
A wayward and rebellious sonQuran says clearly
In this Allah is commaning "Ahlul injeel " to implement whatever Allah has revealed in the Injeel.
Quran endorses the Injeel (Please do guide me if the does not mean previous scriptures ).My Question is
Is stoning punishment in the Bible ?
If not what is the evidence ?
I have nothing to do what the Hadiths say and what is the punishment of Zina in islam in this thread.Regards
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Dear Brother Eid Salaam ;
You said
This statement of you came out in reply of my question if the Quran endorses Bible ,if yes then which corrupted or uncorrupted.
What I get from your reply that Quran does not endorse Bible but only Quran .While Quran clearly mentions at many placesIf this endorsement is not about previous scripture then what is meant by this term of . Waiting for explanation please.
In one of you next post you saidMay I ask you where did I raise the question about "stoning as a punishment of adultery". I raised the question as a general punishment of stoning in the Bible for not only adultery rather for more than 14 crimes.Have a look on the list.
Quran says clearly
In this Allah is commaning "Ahlul injeel " to implement whatever Allah has revealed in the Injeel.
Quran endorses the Injeel (Please do guide me if the does not mean previous scriptures ).My Question is
Is stoning punishment in the Bible ?
If not what is the evidence ?
I have nothing to do what the Hadiths say and what is the punishment of Zina in islam in this thread.Regards
There are no legal punishments mentioned in the Injeel. Yet the Koran says that Christians should rule by the laws and path of the Injeel. Injeel is the NT. I think that the Koran has a different understanding of what "rule by the scriptures" mean.
It is also incorrect to say the Koran does not mention so and so without asking ourselves did the Koran came to verify so and so. The Koran did not lay a whole framework like the Torah did, but the Torah did not add anything new to the Israelites. It seems it was how people at the time governed themselves. There is a tendency to look at all the verses in the Koran as part of the Deen. This is a Sunni mindset. First we need to identify what the Koran means by deen.
There is also a tendency to equate Muhammad's biography and experiences as Divine, another Sunni mindset. It is clear from the Koran that stoning was very much a practiced traditions during the nations of many prophets like Abraham, Noah and Shu'aib. However it could have been alien to the Arabs, or maybe it was something they practiced. But to say these laws are Divine indicates that anything endorsed on the people of Madina is Divine and absolute. Well if this was the case then why has not the Koran given us a complet legal framework. This actually supports the Sunni argument that the Koran is insufficient and we need the Sunnah to know Shariah law. Shariah Law is not even a Koranic concept.
There is creeping Sunnism going on.
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Salaam,
You said
This statement of you came out in reply of my question if the Quran endorses Bible ,if yes then which corrupted or uncorrupted.
What I get from your reply that Quran does not endorse Bible but only Quran .While Quran clearly mentions at many placesIf this endorsement is not about previous scripture then what is meant by this term of . Waiting for explanation please.
297
33
546
548
3531
4630
confirm
?verb
- to establish the truth, accuracy, validity, or genuineness.
Qur?an contains within it the true, accurate, valid, genuine Taur?t and Injeel.
33 He descended on you The Book with the truth, confirming to what (is) between His hands, and He descended the Taur?t and the Injeel.
In one of you next post you said
May I ask you where did I raise the question about "stoning as a punishment of adultery". I raised the question as a general punishment of stoning in the Bible for not only adultery rather for more than 14 crimes.Have a look on the list.
Quran says clearly
In this Allah is commaning "Ahlul injeel " to implement whatever Allah has revealed in the Injeel.
Quran endorses the Injeel (Please do guide me if the does not mean previous scriptures ).546 And We sent in their footsteps with Jesus, Mary's son confirming for what (is) between His hands from the Taur?t and We gave him the Injeel in it guidance and light, and confirming to what (is) between His hands from the Taur?t and guidance and a advice/warning to the pious.
Does current New Testament (choose from dozens according to someone) confirm Old Testament?
Does current supposed NT and OT not contradict Qur'an?My Question is
Is stoning punishment in the Bible ?
If not what is the evidence ?
I have nothing to do what the Hadiths say and what is the punishment of Zina in islam in this thread.Regards
Why do you ask if stoning is in Bible and post verses on stoning in Bible?
What you are referring to as Bible is not Qur'an nor Taur?t and Injeel which Qur'an encompasses.
Regards!