Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Any one may open this thread. No need to challenge me. It's not that hard task to start a thread, although I rarely do (out of laziness). But please get rid of the spirit of "challenge" and into the spirit of debate.
When you throw in an accusation which you know very well is wrong , How do you want me to react?
OK , prove it to me that what i said was a conjecture? And if you cant, please ponder over your role as a Moderator.
siki
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What justification? Do you or don't you believe that these categories of people exist and are not ignored by quraan, even if they are ignored by the society? And if you really believe that I am a sensible, mature person (Oh, thanks!), why haste at atcking me and judging my thoughts before I fully explain them? And where did you get that marriage is for reproduction? Then those ctegories I spoke of should not get married? What would they do? The quraan spoke about "skeenacalmnees/ no more worries" and "labaa unity" between couples, never about reproduction. Get rid of your preconceptions when you read the quraan.
Starting with verse 422-23 the quraan is telling us whom we should not marry. Then in 424 it continues with and the muhsanat except MMA. Can you replace muhsanaat with chaste women here? Can you replace it with "married women"? Do we really need a verse to tell us not to marry married women but we can marry married women f they are "married" to their owners? None of this sound sensible, if you know what sensible is.
My understanding is that the address in verse 424 is shifted from the general public to the special category of those unable to have sex. It is shifting from the marriage that has sex in it to sexless marriage. This is for two reasons
1- this is the only time where God instructs us to consult the family in this matter, because when one of this category wants to marry (someone who may not belong to this categor, i.e a muhsan) the family of the muhsan, and their family, should be aware of that. They will be milku yameen each other. That's why the verse says (prohibited are the muhsans except what you possess by oath).
2- Those muhsans who are married to someone of this category will have their punishment halved if they commit fornication. Have you asked yourself why is that? Has God decreased any punishment for the poor, for example, when they steal, or for the slaves in any other context?My approach is to eliminate unsensible interpretations, and interpretation that are not applicable to all the situations mentioned in the quraan. Understanding muhsanat as chaste or maried women leaves us with many contradictions and un-unsewrable questions, such as how to define a chaste person without falling into the trap of slander; or where to get a slave. Also why a female MMA, and what about male MMA.
Please calm down, and try to honestly understand. This is not a "pointless" or "sensless" theory until you prove it is so, without societal preconceptions and brainwash.
Samia
salam
How about you opening a thread titling your understanding of the word Ma Malakat emnakum? which probably you understand as the people who are disabled to have sex? For sure I would help you there in getting rid off this erroneous understanding.
siki
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583-4 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (it is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other this are ye admonished to perform and Allah is well acquainted with (all) that ye do. And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other. But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones. This, that ye may show your Faith in Allah and His Messenger, those are limits (set by) Allah. For those who reject (Him), there is a grievous Penalty.
The terms (man lam yajid) and (man lam yastati3) are both used in Verses 583 and 584 and their meanings are clearly demonstrated in these verses.
( ) = who has not the wherewithal (financial means) To free a slave you need money
( ) = who is unable (physical power) To fast you need physical power.( ) any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat.
(muhsan = one who is sexually immune, or sexually has no defects)
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The terms (man lam yajid) and (man lam yastati3) are both used in Verses 583 and 584 and their meanings are clearly demonstrated in these verses.
( ْ = who has not the wherewithal (financial means) To free a slave you need money
( ْ = who is unable (physical power) To fast you need physical power.( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat.
(muhsan = one who is sexually immune, or sexually has no defects)
Thank you Tlepsh
At last someone I agree with !! -
583-4 But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (it is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other this are ye admonished to perform and Allah is well acquainted with (all) that ye do. And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other. But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones. This, that ye may show your Faith in Allah and His Messenger, those are limits (set by) Allah. For those who reject (Him), there is a grievous Penalty.
The terms (man lam yajid) and (man lam yastati3) are both used in Verses 583 and 584 and their meanings are clearly demonstrated in these verses.
( ) = who has not the wherewithal (financial means) To free a slave you need money
( ) = who is unable (physical power) To fast you need physical power.( ) any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat.
Brother ! you are wrong in your assumption, let me explain it to you
Istataat, The precise meaning of this word is , To be able to, and how some one is able to, (or not able to) will be determined by the context and the subject in discussion. Generally , when this word is used instead of a precise reasoning , it is meant to cover multiple aspects along with the basic reason, or is used when you don't want to unveil your specific reason.
The aya example you quoted , is correct , basic reason in fasting context could be physical strength, but it does cover other reasons too, like sickness,or could be due to certain kind of a job/routine etc, there are quite a many usages of this word in quran, and every time the context of the verse is determining the primary reason , and i am afraid that majority of these usages do not convey the physical strength aspect.
Precise meaning of the word yajid is , FIND , and you have wrongly locked the meaning to "financially afford, The literal meaning of this word in 58-3 is , "If you do not find a slave to free,,,,,"
(muhsan = one who is sexually immune, or sexually has no defects)
can you kindly aprise me , as to how did you discover the above meaning of the term "Muhsan"
siki
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What justification? Do you or don't you believe that these categories of people exist and are not ignored by quraan, even if they are ignored by the society? And if you really believe that I am a sensible, mature person (Oh, thanks!), why haste at atcking me and judging my thoughts before I fully explain them? And where did you get that marriage is for reproduction? Then those ctegories I spoke of should not get married? What would they do? The quraan spoke about "skeenacalmnees/ no more worries" and "labaa unity" between couples, never about reproduction. Get rid of your preconceptions when you read the quraan.
Starting with verse 422-23 the quraan is telling us whom we should not marry. Then in 424 it continues with and the muhsanat except MMA. Can you replace muhsanaat with chaste women here? Can you replace it with "married women"? Do we really need a verse to tell us not to marry married women but we can marry married women f they are "married" to their owners? None of this sound sensible, if you know what sensible is.
My understanding is that the address in verse 424 is shifted from the general public to the special category of those unable to have sex. It is shifting from the marriage that has sex in it to sexless marriage. This is for two reasons
1- this is the only time where God instructs us to consult the family in this matter, because when one of this category wants to marry (someone who may not belong to this categor, i.e a muhsan) the family of the muhsan, and their family, should be aware of that. They will be milku yameen each other. That's why the verse says (prohibited are the muhsans except what you possess by oath).
2- Those muhsans who are married to someone of this category will have their punishment halved if they commit fornication. Have you asked yourself why is that? Has God decreased any punishment for the poor, for example, when they steal, or for the slaves in any other context?My approach is to eliminate unsensible interpretations, and interpretation that are not applicable to all the situations mentioned in the quraan. Understanding muhsanat as chaste or maried women leaves us with many contradictions and un-unsewrable questions, such as how to define a chaste person without falling into the trap of slander; or where to get a slave. Also why a female MMA, and what about male MMA.
Please calm down, and try to honestly understand. This is not a "pointless" or "sensless" theory until you prove it is so, without societal preconceptions and brainwash.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, thats The Best understanding on this issue i've ever come up with.
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Dear Samia
If reproduction is not the purpose of marriage then what is meant by this verse ?Why the women have been called as "harth" ?
RegardsSalaam student!
It's not limited to it.
This is why I believe the quraan is accommodating those who cannot have reproduction. -
Salaam student!
It's not limited to it.
This is why I believe the quraan is accommodating those who cannot have reproduction.Dear Samia
The word "Harth " shows that reproduction is the primary purpose of marriage.
If one is physically impotent ,then he has no right to spoil the life of any woman by getting married to her thus block all of her chances to
1be psychological satisfied
2have children
3get married to another medically normal person.I personally feel it will be an explicit crime on the part of the man if he does so intentionally.
Regards -
Istataat, The precise meaning of this word is , To be able to, and how some one is able to, (or not able to) will be determined by the context and the subject in discussion. Generally , when this word is used instead of a precise reasoning , it is meant to cover multiple aspects along with the basic reason, or is used when you don't want to unveil your specific reason.
When the sole purpose of marriage is reproduction then we have to agree with Tlepsh "( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat".
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When the sole purpose of marriage is reproduction then we have to agree with Tlepsh "( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat".
Dear Brother
What you are ignoring the word persistantly is word " " which
-finacially sufficient state
-easiness
-favor ,grace ,kindeness (fazl)- ( 2 / 45)
) )
This word " " clearly describe the nature of inability.
Regards - ( 2 / 45)
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Dear Brother
What you are ignoring the word persistantly is word " " which
-finacially sufficient state
-easiness
-favor ,grace ,kindeness (fazl)- ( 2 / 45)
) )
This word " " clearly describe the nature of inability.
RegardsBackward interpretation starting from a preconceived understnding then twist the meaning of the word. The root meaning is "length". The whole expression (Whatever one cannot reach); then work "whatever" from the context and the general sprit of the quraan Why is it difficult to marry muhsanat because of lack of funds, but being able to marry MMA (although for both one is commanded to pay ajr)? It's even "prohibited to marry the muhsanat". Where does God prohibit something because one does not have funds for it/ cannot financially afford it?
- ( 2 / 45)
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Backward interpretation starting from a preconceived understnding then twist the meaning of the word. The root meaning is "length". The whole expression (Whatever one cannot reach); then work "whatever" from the context and the general sprit of the quraan Why is it difficult to marry muhsanat because of lack of funds, but being able to marry MMA (although for both one is commanded to pay ajr)? It's even "prohibited to marry the muhsanat". Where does God prohibit something because one does not have funds for it/ cannot financially afford it?
Dear Samia
(ل .
Reference Maqyeesul lugha
004.025
YUSUFALI If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.GA Pervaiz
25 Whoever amongst you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, may marry a believing woman who is a captive. If you marry a captive woman, do not treat her as an inferior (because once she accepts Islam and marries you, she is at par with others). Allah knows all about your Ei?man (and Ei?man is the only consideration for distinction, otherwise) the one of you is as the other. Marry captive women with the permission of their custodians and pay them their appropriate dowers. If you marry these women, marry them for the purpose of leading a conjugal life and not for the mere satisfaction of your lust. Do not have a secret relationship with themMuhammad Asad
425And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position29 to marry free believing women, believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.30 And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other.31 Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.32 And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable.33 This to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil.34 But it is for your own good to persevere in patience and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
Regards
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Salamun alaykum
After this rather lengthy discussions/debates , what is the concensus on Definition of Marriage and Is sex before marriage permitted as per The Qur'an ?
Peace
almarh0m
peace Almarhom
I was hoping someone would redirect again so thanks bravoMy current understanding A commited independant (Don't live with parents) believing couple who have been known by others to be together are Quranically classified as married therefore sex is in the sight of God acceptable (IMO) and they are protected by moral law.
The traditional marriage to me is adding the government law protection to the moral law protection. Thus the commitment is more serious. When you pop the question of marriage or accept it, you are commiting the rest of your life (till death do us part). In a relationship, this is not the same. When a believer proposes, they invite to the possibility of a lifelong commitment (IMO). Even if the proposer starts a relationship with no intention of inviting to a lifelong commitment it is not quranically wrong as long as their motive is not sex then a relationhip is not wrong.
Samia
Sorry for derailing the threadNo problem
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samia salam
I am still shocked as to how could you come up with such a silly interpretation of this issue , and to top it up insist upon it?
sister , why are you misleading learners, and waisting everyone's time and effort? Did you go through the whole aya under discussion even once critically? Had you done that, you may not have come up with the nonsense that you are insistently posting.
4-25 And whoever among you has not within his power sufficient means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their wage in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is (inflicted) upon free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that you practise self-restraint. And God is forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is being told that they must be given their ajars , and your aim should be to bring them under an honest wedlock(protection) not for fornication, or taking them as paramours/lovers. And if after coming into wedlock, if they become lewd, then the punishment,,,,,,,-----"
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If the people under discussion are sexually disabled, then why the above warning for both?
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If the people under discussion (MMA) is the bunch who is sexually disabled, are they likely to become lewd ?
Go on further, and read the last lines, the aya says, "This permission is for those who fear falling into sin, but if you can wait and practice self restrain, that is better for you".
- What kind of sins you are likely to fall into if you are not married, most probably sexual kind, then how come this advice is for those who are sexually disabled? Isn't it is for those who are sexually overcharged and hence can not wait?
Samia ,Thelps, rasul hamsa! IMHO You got to have frozen brains to conclude exactly the opposite. or may be,,,,
18-57 Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, they disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it , and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.
siki
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Slaam siki
samia salam
I am still shocked
Sorry
you may not have come up with the nonsense that you are insistently posting.
Not more nonesense than dividing women into "expensive" and "free of charge", slaves and free, chaste and unchaste
4-25 And whoever among you has not within his power sufficient means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their wage in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is (inflicted) upon free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that you practise self-restraint. And God is forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is being told that they must be given their ajars , and your aim should be to bring them under an honest wedlock(protection) not for fornication, or taking them as paramours/lovers. And if after coming into wedlock, if they become lewd, then the punishment,,,,,,,-----"
siki
First The verse
What's the meaning of "marrying them" not for illicit sex or taking lovers? Why this partner expected to search for lovers or illicit sex? And what happens when they do? This verse can only be directed to someone who cannot perform sex. It says do not marry someone with the intention of allowing them to have sex elsewhere because you cannot give it. Do you think this does not happen?
3anat does not mean sin. It means "trouble/burden" which could be for any reason, including lonliness, lack of a companion. Those impotent or who cannot have sex still get married. The problem is that they are not honest about it and do not disclose their case to theri partners before marrying them. This is why it's followed by (and if you be patient, God is forgiving, most merciful). Why do you translate (taSbiru) as "practice slf restraint"? Patience does not have to be self restraint.Second Your underlined rendition
If marriage means sex, this rendition is redundant. If you marry them, how can't you take them as girl friends and how should you not have illicit sex with them? If you mean before marriage or instead of marriage, why is it mentioned for MMA? Is this OK with Muhsanat? The meaning is just because you cannot give them sex, this does not mean you should allow them to have lovers or get into illicit sex.-
If the people under discussion are sexually disabled, then why the above warning for both?
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If the people under discussion (MMA) is the bunch who is sexually disabled, are they likely to become lewd ?
They are not necessarily both disabled. The verse is not concerned with two who are both disabled, because then no problem arises. It's addressing the disabled one for whom muhsans (not disabled) are prohibited except those among those muhsans who agree, and then each of them will be committed by this oath "MMA"" to the other .
Go on further, and read the last lines, the aya says, "This permission is for those who fear falling into sin, but if you can wait and practice self restrain, that is better for you".
- What kind of sins you are likely to fall into if you are not married, most probably sexual kind, then how come this advice is for those who are sexually disabled? Isn't it is for those who are sexually overcharged and hence can not wait?
Circular argument. You translate "3anat " as sin, and specifically a sin realted to sex, and then work backward as why. It's hardship, not sin any hardship resulting form not having a companion, not being able to adopt a child, not being able to mix with married couples....to the end of the many advantages of marriage apart from sex. Or do you think that if one of the couples becomes secondarily impotent the marriage will be useless and fall apart?
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