Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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peace
This is going to be my 1000th post , yay and I am likely to be earning the 4th and final star. I thank HIM for choosing me to help his creation by improving understanding of his last and final scripture.
Keeping him as witness, I declare that to the best of my ability, I kept logic paramount and never let my ego or personal likes/dislikes come in the way of my understandings, which could have mislead others.
hail I pray, HE gives me time/interest/courage/wisdom and energy to go on doing this Divine duty.
And by doing this, I wish that my knowledge of his system develops to a stage , where I make my self worthy of his selection, and (just like so many others on this forum) go on being his servant in the next life.
God Bless you all handshake
siki
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Al-muhsanaat is a category of women which means secured, reserved, immune, fortified/impenetrable, inaccessible etc.
Acc. to 4/24, al-muhsanaat are forbidden for marriage except ONLY if they are from the "MMA" category. This verse has laid down the rule for the rest of the Quran.
***So wherever the Quran talks about marrying al-muhsanaat, they have to be from the MMA.
How does a woman become al-muhsana?
4/25 says if you cannot "marry" or do nikah with ***al-muhsanaat al-mominaat(who will be from the "MMA" of course, 4/24), so anyone from the "MMA" from your fatayaat al-mominaat. This makes al-muhsanaat and fatayaat two distinct categories of women.
Why should Quran tell you , That Mohsinnate are Haram (married women) , and yet right in the next verse Tell us, "IF you cant marry a Mohsinnate" This would only make sense, if the mohsinnate were the ones that you could get married to.
Now you would say , that here quran meant the Mohsinnate of MMA, cause that is the rule given in 4-24.
No brother Quran is a law book , and hence takes nothing for granted , YOU mean The God forgot to add MMA word here. But remember , He does remember to add it right in beginning of the very next sentence, When he says,
---"Then among MMA , a believing young MOhsinna"
And how about explaining this
5-5 This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers
---Halle lahum mohsinnate ul mominnate, wal Mohsinnate ul zeene wa otul kitabe
You mean that he again forgot to mention it?
Brother ! Quran does not work that way , these assumptions are a product of your own imaginations to suit yourself, and may be, an attempt to "find in it what you want".
I will continue...
siki
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Fahad , salam
according to you , interpretaion of 4-25 ,is That one must first try and find a married one, ( is it normal, or MMA?) and if you are unable to find one , then you should marry a young one from MMA.
elektroSo the first priority for marriage goes to a married one before one looks for a young one. .
brickwall How does that make sense?
siki
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****THEREFORE, a woman becomes al-muhsana after nikah.
(Btw, if we take it to mean chaste, then are fatayaat unchaste? Are chaste women forbidden for marriage(4/24)? That wouldn't make sense.)
Fatayats , are not unchaste, because you have to look for the same ( Mohsinnats) but this time among MMA. The 4-25 is simply conveying,
If you cant find a chaste, halal, elligible lady(Mohsinnate) from among the believing category, then find the same (A mohsinna) among MMA,who must be again a believer,and ensure that she should be a young one.
The stress of this aya is on believing kind, Our first priority is to find a believing Mohsinna , and if we dont find one, we may not go ahead for the Mohsinnas among otul kitab,(as permitted in 5-6) or a one who has a bad reputation (Questionable character wise,one who does not deserve to be called by mohsinnate title) Or a one among the non believers. Or a mushriqa or a zania, before considering MMa category. A believing young girl among MMAhas priority over the rest(first alternate) mentioned above.
Commandments are very simple and straight forward, I do not understand as to why people make a mess out of it.
siki
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Salaam,
If they are punished they are labeled 243 Alzzanee la yankihu illa zaniyatan
Salaam Eid, all
What if they repent after the punishment?
(243)
243 the adulterer couples with none other than an adulteress - that is, a woman who accords a place side by side with God; and with the adulteress couples none other than an adulterer - that is, a man who accords a place side by side with God and this is forbidden unto the believers.
In my opinion, this can be understood in two ways
1- The act of zina itself can only take place between an adultrer and an adultress or a mushrik and a mushriks (who accord to their lust a place that should be accorded to the commandments of God/ the restrictions according to the Straight Path).
OR
2- The act is performed in a professional way, i.e a repeated act, as in porn movies, a profession, indicated by the pattern of "actor/ ismul fa3il" in zaani/ zaania = faa3il / faa3ila. For example, if I sell my car, that does not make me a car dealer but a one off act.
Even for those in the second category, repentence will bring them back to the pool of chaste. Marriage is forbidden if they do not repent.
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Forbidden sexually are married muhsanat exception of MMA category; no contradictions and they are believers.
425 ...so from MMA from your youths (girls) the believers (F)
The contradiction is that MMA are also married (if muhsanat are married, according to you). Why do you decide that these muhsanaat mentioned in this verse are the married ones?
"Forbidden are the married women except MMA" What do you understand from this phrase by logic? Only one valid conclusion MMA are a sub category of the "married women" They are married, contradicts your rendition of 425
Still you did not explain how this applies to the males. -
Yes, they were captives, runaways, perhaps prior slaves before Qur'an (feed the poor or free a neck). To be treated with kindness 436; needed permission to marry from their person in charge 2433 not equal 1671
What makes them captives? Contradicts the teachings of the quraan forbidding aggression. If you are defending your self/home, you will be occupied with chasing the enemy away. Are you dreaming that this agressive army is made up of women? Is it even quraanic to keep them as captives?
Moreover, in all the verses that discuss the captives (285; 867; 870; 95; 3326; 76, none says "marry them"or make them MMA. If they accept to be believers, you treat them as one of you and they cannot be under any body's charge. If they do not, you cannot marry them They are within a forbidden category of mushriks/ non believers.runaways, from the believing community or to it, is dealt with in verse 6010. No mention of marrying them as MMA
prior slaves?free salves? They become free. periodMy question what makes these categories easier to marry than the muhsanat, as per verse 425?
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3028 ...are for you from MMA from partners in what We provided for you? So you are (all) in it equal?
Obviously read context for appropriate usage applicable to which gender.
Question
Address in context is ONLY to men not able to have sex; where is the guidance for normal people?
Verse 3028 is not clear, and I do not see how it supports or refutes any understaning.Where od you get "equal"from? It says "you fear them the way you fear yourselves?" I do not know how someone fears themselves, so I cannot comment on it yet.
Not context...context is understanding.I read address. The quraan is addressing both genders, unless it is explicitly shown that only one gender is addressed. MMA are mentioned for females too.
Address is not only to men. Normal people do not have a problem marrying muhsanat. Why do they need guidance? I bring tea to a group, and I say those who cannot metabolize sugar, here are sweetners. Would the rest ask me and what about us?!
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Samia and some others
I fail to understand as to why are you not answering the basic contradiction which arises due to your falulty assumption of Mohsinnate as married in 4-24 and prohibited? I have asked/shown you nany a times that it 100%contradicts with what is being commanded in 4-25 and 5-6.
4-25--and if you are not able to marry a believing Mohsinna -- then
5-6--today all Good food---and Hallal for you are believing Mohsinnas as well as Mohsinnas from people of the book--It is like trying to play scrabble when you haven't learnt the ABC yet.
please move forward only when you are able to resolve this basic/major contradiction.
siki
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For all who are posting to resolve this issue
You have to come up with a complete package and show us as to how your understanding of the words (MMA, Mohsinnate) fit in all the relevant verses of Quran , and also discuss as to how/why they make sense.
You can not pick up just a single verse, scribble what you think as how it should be, and vanish.
Pop up again after a few days when the thread has moved forward, and people have forgotten. Write some more nonsense about how you interpret another aya, and go away distracting the sincere learners , who are eagerly waiting for an out come.
And to all those whom I have asked pertinent queries regarding their understandings; please come up with a satisfying answer before indulging into further discussion, and if you have not been able to, it is better to go back to the drawing board, rather than singing the same old song.
siki
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Salaam siki
Samia and some others
I fail to understand as to why are you not answering the basic contradiction which arises due to your falulty assumption of Mohsinnate as married in 4-24 and prohibited? I have asked/shown you nany a times that it 100%contradicts with what is being commanded in 4-25 and 5-6.
4-25--and if you are not able to marry a believing Mohsinna -- then
5-6--today all Good food---and Hallal for you are believing Mohsinnas as well as Mohsinnas from people of the book--It is like trying to play scrabble when you haven't learnt the ABC yet.
please move forward only when you are able to resolve this basic/major contradiction.
siki
First of all,as long as you consider my assumption as faulty without even reading with "an open mind ",to borrow your request, what I write, what's the point of asking questions?
Where did I say "muhsanat " are married women?
Where did you ask me and I refused to respond? This is the basis of my understanding of this issuehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.msg201306#msg201306
and unless you get rid of this co-descending attitude towards others who debate with you and who you disagree with, there wont be any fruitful discussion
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I will start my post with congratulations to all participants. My head is spinning since a long time ago already. But we keep at it, and I am sure that we are grinding a lot of beans at this time, and surely it will show later on though now we may feel a bit frustrated. I particularly thank you all for your input.
Congratulations also to siki for his 1000th post, great achievement in trying to polish the unpolished, and also for his n-th "you women who suck to the feminist western brainwash" post which I find so funny, unlike the rest which are more serious.
Ok, to the point I see in 4.24 that it says
... illa mamalakat aymaanukum kitaabAllahi ...
gramatically what causes the kitaab to be marfu3? Usually I see it translated in this sentence as a subject. But a subject of what? To say merely that the scripture of God is on them? But then, why marfu3?
Please, grammarians, satisfy me on that and at least one of my thousands of confusions might be lifted.
Thanks and congratulations to all again.
Salaam
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Salaam siki
First of all,as long as you consider my assumption as faulty without even reading with "an open mind ",to borrow your request, what I write, what's the point of asking questions?
Where did I say "muhsanat " are married women?
Where did you ask me and I refused to respond? This is the basis of my understanding of this issuehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.msg201306#msg201306
and unless you get rid of this co-descending attitude towards others who debate with you and who you disagree with, there wont be any fruitful discussion.
Samia , salam.
I get worked up when I find mature experienced members loose their bearing. Whatever, I will try and be more careful about my co descening attitude that you mentioned.
Trust me , when I say that I seriously evaluated your sexually disabled theory, but when I tried to fit that in some other ayas , It did not work out.
And I dont want to do your work, If you are so convinced about it, I think you have the talent to put it in one comprehensive form and show us all , as to how good it works in all the relevant ayas.
(Btw, my address was , samia and others, I am in knowledge of your disabled postulate since very long)
siki
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Congratulations also to siki for his 1000th post, great achievement in trying to polish the unpolished, and also for his n-th "you women who suck to the feminist western brainwash" post which I find so funny, unlike the rest which are more serious.
Thanks,
By the way ,"this western feminist brain wash" , Isn't this a fact? ;D Gone are the days when we men used to posses you with our right hands voodoo ,and add or change you at will, Now you rule the world, and poor us , we are just being utilised for providing food and seeds.
OK coming to some serious talk,
What are you trying to know regarding , Kitab allah he allukum, what is the confusion? and what is this Marfu3?
siki
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5.5 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
? and the muhsanat (immune) from the believing women,
? and the muhsanat (immune) from the people of the Scripture before you,
if
? you have given them their dowries,
? you are muhsinin (immune)
? you are chaste,
? and you are not seeking to take lovers.
And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.One should be immune (muhsan) (sexually able) to marry a muhsana (a lady who is sexually able)
As per verses 424-25 any one (who have any sexual defect) who is not able physically to marry muhsanat shall look for a lady who will voluntarily accept his condition and marry with her. This lady will be his MMA and he will be her MMA.
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One should be immune (muhsan) (sexually able) to marry a muhsana (a lady who is sexually able)
As per verses 424-25 any one (who have any sexual defect) who is not able physically to marry muhsanat shall look for a lady who will voluntarily accept his condition and marry with her. This lady will be his MMA and he will be her MMA.
rotfl Brother , i would be interested in finding out, as to how have you translated the words , Mohsann or mohsinnate , into sexually able Man or woman?
Moreover, where are the sexual defects mentioned in 4-24 or 4-25?
siki
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Thanks,
What are you trying to know regarding , Kitab allah he allukum, what is the confusion? and what is this Marfu3?
siki
I am trying to know what the Qur'an says exactly. Kitaaba marfu3 means roughly that it is in accusative form and therefore is not a subject unless it is modified by some particle, but if it is, which is that particle? That is, I want to know what is "kitaaba"'s function in the sentence, and where does the sentence end and where does it begin.
Salaam
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Peace Nyma,
I disagree. For example a branch of rose as ajr does not have to be written down as it is not of enough value to be written down. If it is not of enough value, then it does not come under the DYN in the context of 2282. If you lent a pen to a friend, would you have it written down or witnessed?? I wouldn?t unless the pen was of ENOUGH valuable to me.
ITS VALUE DOES NOT MATTER. 2282 does not say that record only those debts that have value. DAYN refers to ANYTHING OWED.
DYN in 2282 does not refer to "something owed that is of value" but refers to anything owed or any debt.
You would be right only if 2282 had said "if you owe anything of value", and then the god wiould have defined the value also to avoid confusion in 2282, but it does not say that.
It is not compulsory to my understanding. You don?t have to have an ?allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah?. 2237 does not say nor imply that there HAS to be an ?allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah? its implication is that there CAN be one.
2237 refers to when ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, which would automatically require a written contract. The "oqdat al-nikah" in this sign refers to this written contract. It is a written contract because ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, so it is owed and comes under DYN.
In my other post which you have not yet commented on, I mentioned the understanding that there is no written contract if AJR is paid on the spot at the time of nikah, but if it is not given at time of nikah, then the written contract is compulsory.
Yes. But I see no wrong in my understanding of You can propose publicly or secretly but until you agree to start a relationship it does not come under Ba-Ya-Ayn. Once it starts, THEN it may fall under Ba-Ya-Ayn thus 2 witnesses are required if this is considered as on the spot.
Proposal is called "khitbaat al-nisaa" according to 2235, and because it can be public or secret, no witnesses needed. I never said that "proposal" comes under Ba-Ya-Ayn. You are misquoting me here, and that is one thing which I really really really don't like.
Oath to get married is the next step after "proposal". Once you take an oath in front of the god to get married then she becomes your MMA. This oath to get married (not the proposal), will come under Ba-Ya-Ayn and will need one witness or two witnesses depending on condition of the husband (see my other post on 2282 that you haven't commented on for how many witnesses).
There can be three steps, out of which first is optional, but second and third are compulsory
- Proposal (KHITBAAT AL-NISA) ------> No witnesses necessary
- Oath to get married (MMA) ---------> one or two male witnesses required
- Nikah/marriage ---------------------> number of witnesses depends on condition of husband, written contract required only when AJR not given on the spot at the time of nikah.
I disagree as you have not backed this up. Verses?? I found none.
I cannot find a verse which says that ajr is mutually agreed. Thus no point in discussing this point until you provide evidence.424 ..................... As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
It clearly mentions "mutual agreement"/"tardaitum".
You can argue that the mutual agreement is AFTER ajr is given as obligation but the end result will be the same. For example, you give her some sand as ajr and AFTER you gave the sand she does not agree, so then "there is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation" as per 424.
Of course what you give depends upon your means as clearly mentioned in 2236
2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before stipulating/specifying the stipulation/settlement for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. Recompense which is in goodness, a responsibility for those in kindness.
I repeat that just taking her out would not be ajr unless you also let her know that this will be her ajr for nikah, and then she agrees to it per 424. For example, you take her out and let her know that this is her ajr for marriage and then after you take her out she disagrees, then you can settle it with mutual agreement as per 424.
Everything related to nikah/marriage has to be with mutual agreement. This is common sense. For example, you cannot force your wife into having sex with you when she is not feeling like having sex, thereby raping her. You cannot also just give her a fistful of sand as ajr, even though she disagrees to it, and then think your obligation is fulfilled.