The Message - Second Edition
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Peace Layth,
"Outreaching" implies reaching out to something that is distant. God is closer than the jugular vein. Better translation of "salaat" would be "connection/bond". Connection has connotations of association and relationship and communication and does not imply that one is reaching out to something that is distant. "Outreaching" also will not fit in 95. How can the rejecters uphold an "outreaching"?
"House" is better translation for "bayt" than "sanctuary". Sanctuary implies a sacred place. For example, how can a spider's "bayt" be sacred? You translate "bayt" in 2941 as "home" but in other places as "sanctuary". It should be "house" which fits in all occurrences.
The word "kaaba" canot be translated as "outcropping". That is the most ridiculous translation I have seen. It should be translated as "base".
In 2158, you just translated "al-marwah" but left out "al-safa". It should not be "the stone and rock outcropping", but "the stone on which livestock are slaughtered" for "al-marwah". It should be "the livestock lined up for slaughter" for "al-safa".
In 2198, "arafaat" means "getting acquainted" and not "high place". If you translate it as "high place" then the question is which high place according to the qur'aan?
Also "the symbol which is restricted" is wrong and has paganistic connotations. "Al-mash3r al-haraam" should be translated as "what makes you aware of the inviolable".
- There is no sin upon you to seek goodness from your Lord. So when you finish from getting acquainted, then remember The God at what makes you aware of the inviolable, and remember Him as He has guided you and you were straying before that.
Progressive,
The commandment of not eating meat of pig is inviolable.
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Peace Brotherman,
No matter what these words mean try to stay civil with each other. These words don't change the fact that we should stay civilized.
Firstly, thank you for your comments and question, especially this being your first post.
Civility is precisely about what those words mean. There is nothing civil about revering and spinning around a stone cube while wearing a towel. Taking those words as meaningless proper names is simply an excuse to justify those mindless pagan uncivil actions. Where is the civility in such blatant paganism? You can empirically verify for yourself what I am saying by going to the pagan circus in Mecca and observing for yourself what happens around the stone cube and people mindlessly spinning around it. This is the kind of ?civil? crowd that you will find Progressive1993 alongside Q_student in.
No matter how ?civil? they pretend to be, deep inside they both fantasize about getting close to the stone cube and being able to spin around it up close and personal. This is the extent of their knowledge. Do you have any doubt that if you or I or anyone here took an axe and started to hit their beloved stone cube or even just said loudly that it is pagan that he or she wouldn?t be shred to pieces by the wild-eyed mob of angry ?civil? pagans that Progressive1993 and Q_student happily spin with? How civil is that? People who revere stones, no matter what justification they use and civil they pretend to be, are not civil.
I have a question for Ayman. Since you have decided that the scientific method is the only way to conclude that those words are not proper nouns, does it not bother you that Allah's existence can't be proven or disproven using the same scientific method?
Just wondering.The scientific method is about making a hypothesis (imagining inside our mind) and then proving it or disproving it with empirical verification (reality). The underlying assumption of the scientific method is that truth is reality independent of the human imagination. Implicit in this assumption is that all falsehood must come from the human imagination. Humans have imagined many things including various multiple gods and that the universe spontaneously appeared out of nothing with no god. But if you can imagine it and imagination is the source of all falsehood then all this must contain to a certain extent an element of falsehood. Only the one god we can?t imagine what he is or what he is like. Try it, you won?t be able to. He is therefore absolute truth. So fundamentally the scientific method actually points to a one god that is the absolute truth. Willingly or unwillingly, the scientific method submits to the god.
Peace,
Ayman
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Civility is precisely about what those words mean. There is nothing civil about revering and spinning around a stone cube while wearing a towel. Taking those words as meaningless proper names is simply an excuse to justify those mindless pagan uncivil actions. Where is the civility in such blatant paganism? You can empirically verify for yourself what I am saying by going to the pagan circus in Mecca and observing for yourself what happens around the stone cube and people mindlessly spinning around it. This is the kind of ?civil? crowd that you will find Progressive1993 alongside Q_student in.
No matter how ?civil? they pretend to be, deep inside they both fantasize about getting close to the stone cube and being able to spin around it up close and personal. This is the extent of their knowledge. Do you have any doubt that if you or I or anyone here took an axe and started to hit their beloved stone cube or even just said loudly that it is pagan that he or she wouldn?t be shred to pieces by the wild-eyed mob of angry ?civil? pagans that Progressive1993 and Q_student happily spin with? How civil is that? People who revere stones, no matter what justification they use and civil they pretend to be, are not civil.
The scientific method is about making a hypothesis (imagining inside our mind) and then proving it or disproving it with empirical verification (reality). The underlying assumption of the scientific method is that truth is reality independent of the human imagination. Implicit in this assumption is that all falsehood must come from the human imagination. Humans have imagined many things including various multiple gods and that the universe spontaneously appeared out of nothing with no god. But if you can imagine it and imagination is the source of all falsehood then all this must contain to a certain extent an element of falsehood. Only the one god we can?t imagine what he is or what he is like. Try it, you won?t be able to. He is therefore absolute truth. So fundamentally the scientific method actually points to a one god that is the absolute truth. Willingly or unwillingly, the scientific method submits to the god.
Ayman,
I have read the discussions between you and Edip and you and Pierre. In those, you clearly lost you have "proven yourself to be a rejector (kafir in arabic)" of the great miracle of 19 as Pierre also stated. Besides, you might want to see the paganism involved in your revering of the summer solstice, the scroching moon after it and all of the practices around it here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598395.msg203098#new
@ all,
If you want to find out about the scientific method, I would suggest you read about Francis Bacon and the Scientific Revolution.
Regards
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Peace Progressive1993,
I have read the discussions between you and Edip and you and Pierre. In those, you clearly lost you have "proven yourself to be a rejector (kafir in arabic)" of the great miracle of 19 as Pierre also stated.
It is you who are a rejector (kafir in arabic) in the great fact of Code 19. You do not believe that 1 out of every 19 random numbers is 19 divisible.
Besides, you might want to see the paganism involved in your revering of the summer solstice, the scroching moon after it and all of the practices around it here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598395.msg203098#newThe link that you provided doesn't mention anything about the scorching moon so you are lying as usual. At any rate, whether you like it or not, you hypocritically use the solar cycle for timing when you go on summer vacation and for almost every seasonal or daily activity. If you were sincere then stop using this "pagan" solar cycle. Unlike you, I am not a hypocrite and I don't face or bow towards the summer solstice or the scorching full-moon when I pray or spin seven times around it like you do with your beloved pagan stones.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Progressive1993,
It is you who are a rejector (kafir in arabic) in the great fact of Code 19. You do not believe that 1 out of every 19 random numbers is 19 divisible.
No, believe me I have seen many of debates between you and Pierre. But oh well..
The link that you provided doesn't mention anything about the scorching moon so you are lying as usual. At any rate, whether you like it or not, you hypocritically use the solar cycle for timing when you go on summer vacation and for almost every seasonal or daily activity. If you were sincere then stop using this "pagan" solar cycle. Unlike you, I am not a hypocrite and I don't face or bow towards the summer solstice or the scorching full-moon when I pray or spin seven times around it like you do with your beloved pagan stones.
I never claimed that I dont use the solar calendar. In fact, I only use the Lunar Calendar to get the timing for Ramadan, which I get from the i-net anyways. I dont see a problem in that. I never calimed that the solar cycle is "pagan" as you claimed. Where did you get that from?
I'll check the links again except if God wills (otherwise). The summer solstice is defintely linked to paganism. I'll see if the red moon is also tied in there.
Regards
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Salam,
Please note that the choice of
Almightyis based on a well written article by an old member that shows that the word is notmost mercifulas is commonly used, but is actuallyalmighty- it was a name for God that even the polytheists at the time of Mohammed (who was reciting the Quran in their own language) did not recognize.http//www.free-minds.org/rahman
Peace,
I have skimmed through the article and the issue popped into my mind when reading through parts of chapter 19, where "al rahman" is used 16 times (as the article says). I thought that it could mean "the almighty" or something similar. A verse that suggests this is
1945 "My father, I fear that a retribution will inflict you from al Rahman and that you will become an ally to the devil."
There are also other instances that might suggest that it means "the almighty".
However, these verses suggest that it means "most gracious/the gracious"
7156 Waoktub lana fee hathihialddunya hasanatan wafee al-akhiratiinna hudna ilayka qala AAathabee oseebubihi man ashao wa rahmatee wasiAAat kulla shay-infasaaktubuha lillatheena yattaqoona wayu/toona alzzakatawaallatheena hum bi-ayatinayu/minoona
7156 "Decree for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter; we have been guided towards You." He said, "I will afflict with My punishment whom I chose, but My mercy encompasses all things. I will thus decree it for those who are aware and contribute towards betterment, and those who acknowledge Our signs."
1950 Wawahabna lahum min rahmatina wajaAAalna lahum lisana sidqin AAaliyyan
1950 We granted them from Our mercy, and We made for them a tongue of truth to be heard.
I like Shabbir Ahmed's translation of the basmalah
BISMILLAH-IR-RAHMAN-IR-RAHEEM With the Glorious Name of God, the Ultimate Source of Instant Beneficence and Eternal mercy Who encompasses the entire Universe, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be; just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo to completion without any returns.A thing that might point towards it meaning "almighty" is "who encompasses the whole unmiverse", but "benificience" is also used.
It might mean something inbetween. Perhaps "the one who encompasses all" or "the beneficient". Maybe "the almighty", but some verses that I quoted seem to disprove that.
Any further ideas?
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Peace all,
Thank you all for your comments and contributions.
This project, God willing, is now being wrapped up.
The most updated version of the second edition has now been uploaded http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdf
I will leave this thread open for a few more days just in-case, then the file with the printer will be replaced with the new edition.
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Peace all,
Thank you all for your comments and contributions.
This project, God willing, is now being wrapped up.
The most updated version of the second edition has now been uploaded http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdf
I will leave this thread open for a few more days just in-case, then the file with the printer will be replaced with the new edition.
Good job in the editing, but I would suggest you make a slight change in the fatiha by adding a verb to 12
"Praise IS to God.."
or "Praise BE to God..."
or "Praise IS DUE to God..." etc. etc.Sounds way better.
Also I suggest a change in translation of "samad" in 1122
Something like "God is independent/the first cause/absolute/eternal", etc.
Sad-Miim-Dal = to set up, erect a thing, adorn, wish, repair, strike. samad - chief, lord, eternal, one to whom obedience is rendered, one to whom recourse is had, one who is independent, everything goes back to him as its source.
37 is OK, but I would not translate "mustashabihat" as "similar". This doesnt make a lot of sense and isnt clear. A good translation would be "multiple-meaning, allegorical, metaphorical" (one of them or 2 or all).
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Peace Layth, everyone,
Whilst this edition has some small improvements over the last one (e.g. kaaba is finally "base", actually it should be base with a small "b" instead of Base with a capital B, so disappointed there too), I am utterly disappointed with the current edition.
It seems like the god mentioned in the current edition of The Message has some limitations and is present at a distance because we have to OUTREACH for him and he has to OUTREACH for us. My god does not have to OUTREACH for a prophet (3356 as translated in the current edition of the message). My god is closer than the jugular vein and is present everywhere. My god is not present at a distance from me so I don't have to OUTREACH for him.
The qur'aan that I know is a written book and not a RECITATION. The dictionary definition of recitation points to absence of a text.
There are many other disappointments also due to many many other mistranslated words.
1041 And if they deny you, then say ?I have my deeds, and you have your deeds. You are innocent from what I do, and I am innocent from what you do.?
378 And from amongst them is a group that twist their tongues with the book so that you may think it is from the book, while it is not from the book, and they say it is from the god while it is not from the god, and they say about the god lies while they know.
I can only pray to the god to guide us.
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Peace,
There will always be dissapointments (can please some of the people most of the time, can please most of the people some of the time, but can never please all the people all the time!).
Kaaba as
base(with a smallbwill be re-examined).As for outreaching, I don't know exactly who the god you are referring to is, but the God I know is not physically everywhere but sits on a throne which is based upon the water (117), and the place where He resides has a day that is equal to 1,000 of our days (2247), when He appeared here last, the mountain crumbled as it was unable to bear His presence (7134). God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day (8922). Therefore, yes, we do need to
reachoutto God and traverse the physical boundaries that seperate us from Him (thatis why Salat has specific rules, times, form, etc...It is not like aprayerwhich can be done wnytime anywhere in anyform).Finally, on
Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty. -
outreaching is a verb, whilst salat is a noun. If you wanted to use the noun, it would be outreach.
Not that I agree with the translation of "outreach" or "outreaching" to begin with. salat is more closely translated as "bond" or "homage".
For the record, I did not check over anything else.
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Peace Layth,
There will always be dissapointments (can please some of the people most of the time, can please most of the people some of the time, but can never please all the people all the time!).
Kaaba asbase(with a smallbwill be re-examined).Thank you for the good effort. This is a big improvement.
As for outreaching, I don't know exactly who the god you are referring to is, but the God I know is not physically everywhere but sits on a throne which is based upon the water (117), and the place where He resides has a day that is equal to 1,000 of our days (2247), when He appeared here last, the mountain crumbled as it was unable to bear His presence (7134). God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day (8922). Therefore, yes, we do need to
reachoutto God and traverse the physical boundaries that seperate us from Him (thatis why Salat has specific rules, times, form, etc...It is not like aprayerwhich can be done wnytime anywhere in anyform).No one is talking about the limited physical aspects that we are familiar with. The god's throne encompasses the heavens and the earth (2255) so it is everywhere. Moreover, as you said his throne is on water (117). Since it also encompasses the heavens and the earth then it is on every drop of water in the heavens and the earth. Every living thing in the heavens and the earth, including us, is made of water. So whether we like it or not, the god's throne is on us. I hope that you can appreciate how the god is indeed very near to us (not in the same way that humans physically define near but much nearer). Indeed he is nearer to us then even the blood made of water flowing through our jugular vain.
Finally, on
Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty.This is not accurate. The great reading is always described as a book (a written document). 961-4 make it clear that "quran" means reading and not recitation because we are clearly told to "iqra'a by your most generous/honorable lord who taught by the PEN". The reference to teaching by the pen makes it clear that "iqra'" means "read" and not "recite". All of the above plus the references to the words of the god not running out even if the sea was ink and the trees were pens make it absolutely certain that "quran" is better translated as "reading" and not "recitation".
I agree with Wakas that one of the aspects of "salat" is the "bond" or "connection". The other aspect is "learning" which takes us out of the darkness and into the light and is the only way to REMEMBER. You can call it whatever you want to call it as long as you capture those two aspects.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
As for outreaching, I don't know exactly who the god you are referring to is, but the God I know is not physically everywhere but sits on a throne which is based upon the water (117), and the place where He resides has a day that is equal to 1,000 of our days (2247), when He appeared here last, the mountain crumbled as it was unable to bear His presence (7134). God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day (8922). Therefore, yes, we do need to
reachoutto God and traverse the physical boundaries that seperate us from Him (thatis why Salat has specific rules, times, form, etc...It is not like aprayerwhich can be done wnytime anywhere in anyform).You forgot that the god also has hands (373, 564, 3967, 4810, 5729).
2115 And to the god belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the god?s presence. The god is encompassing, knowledgeable.
2255 The god, there is no god but he, the living, the sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes him; to him belongs all that is in heavens and in the earth. Who will intercede with him except by his leave? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of his knowledge except for what he wishes. His throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for him to preserve them. He is the most high, the great.
4126 And to the god is what is in heavens and in the earth; the god is encompassing over all things.
4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their lord; but he is encompassing all things.
7134 has nothing to do with what you are saying.
REVEALING/MAKING OBVIOUS/APPARENT/MANIFEST to a mountain (7143) does not mean he was not present there. He could be hidden and still be present everywhere.
He appeared here last
Not only are you insulting the god by turning him into a limited object far away from us but now you also seem to have knowledge of when the god appeared last.
God will only come to our world physically along with the angels on J-day
Now you are contradicting yourself. In the same sentence you just finished saying he appeared here last to the mountain, and now you claim that he will only come to our world physically on J-day. Where is "physically" in 8922 anyway? Which row will the physical god be in?
The coming of the lord in 8922 is his revealing himself/making himself apparent/manifest/obvious
8922 And your lord stands revealed and the controllers rank upon rank.
Finally, on
Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty.22 This is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
271 T?.S, these are the signs of the Qur?an and a clear book.It is being called a book while it is being revealed, even before it was written down. So it cannot be a recitation. the qur'aan can be recited but itself cannot mean recitation otherwise you are contradicting 22 and 271
There will always be dissapointments (can please some of the people most of the time, can please most of the people some of the time, but can never please all the people all the time!).
It is not the matter of pleasing us. I really don't give a damn if I am pleased or not. It is the matter of pleasing the god and not ascribing lies to him. Anyway, I seek refuge of the god from the pagan physical limited god of The Message.
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Ayman and truthseeker11 make good points.
We have to be careful focusing on one verse when it comes to topics because as can be seen it is easy to reach a wrong conclusion without looking at all verses.
The God encompasses the heavens and earth so Him appearing last to a mountain and His throne being on water, has to be taken as metaphorical verses to be in harmony with other verses in The Reading.
PEACE
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2115 And to the god belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the god?s presence. The god is encompassing, knowledgeable.
2255 The god, there is no god but he, the living, the sustainer. No slumber or sleep overtakes him; to him belongs all that is in heavens and in the earth. Who will intercede with him except by his leave? He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of his knowledge except for what he wishes. His throne encompasses all of the heavens and the earth and it is easy for him to preserve them. He is the most high, the great.
4126 And to the god is what is in heavens and in the earth; the god is encompassing over all things.
4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their lord; but he is encompassing all things.
I fully agree. Furthermore I would say that the "throne" is allegorical/metaphorical. It symbolizes authority. You CANNOT confine God to a single spot (ie. on a physical throne). You cannot divide him into parts, I think this even amounts to Shirk (dividing up God) which is what a Shia guy on a youtube video said.
The problem with Kaaba as "Base" or "base" is that or a non-Muslim, for example, would not know which base you are talking about.
Also, please add some verbs to the Fatiha (e.g. "Praise BE to God", "All praise IS due to God", "It IS you (alone) whom we...", etc.)
Peace
Peace
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Peace Progressive,
The problem with Kaaba as "Base" or "base" is that or a non-Muslim, for example, would not know which base you are talking about.
Everyone knows what a base is and it is a universal concept. Even little kids know that everyone is SAFE at the base when they play, for example, hide and seek. The base as a safe place where people can gather is a universal concept. The god clearly explains that the inviolable house is the base. If anyone doesn't know what they are talking about then it is the majority of so-called Muslims who have hijacked this simple universal concept and turned it into the meaningless proper name of an Arab pagan stone cube.
Peace,
Ayman
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243 And uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel.
343 "O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel."
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Dwelling "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
3824 He said "He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few." And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented.
4829 ...you see them kneeling and prostrating...
I'd suggest you translate "ruku" as "bow" not "kneel".
Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
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Salam all,
OK, project is now complete. I am planning to upload the new files late tommorow.
If someone can have a glance at all the verb occurances of "salat" to ensure that they have been translated properly I would appreciate it.
Second Edition text
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdfSecond Edition cover
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/newcover.pdfTo Progressive
On the Ruku issue, it is not
bowbecause the act of Ruku can involve one doing so in a falling motion (see 3824). That is why I chose Kneel. -
Peace Layth,
Thank you for translating "salaat" as "bond" and "al-qur'aan" as "the reading". bravo bravo bravo
Finally some HUGE improvement. Keep up the good work.
Previously I had given up on The Message but now I am looking forward to buying the new edition. yay yay yay
A small suggestion "aqeem al-salaat" should be "uphold/establish the bond" instead of "hold".
Another important suggestion "sawm" should be translated to "abstinence" because it has been used in the qur'aan not only for fasting (which implies food and drink) but also from talking (Mary's abstinence), and from sex.
From dictionary.com
fast/f?st, fst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
?verb (used without object)
- to abstain from all food.
- to eat only sparingly or of certain kinds of food, esp. as a religious observance.
?verb (used with object)
- to cause to abstain entirely from or limit food; put on a fast to fast a patient for a day before surgery.
?noun
- an abstinence from food, or a limiting of one's food, esp. when voluntary and as a religious observance; fasting.
- a day or period of fasting.
abstinence/?bstnns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
?noun
- forbearance from any indulgence of appetite, esp. from the use of alcoholic beverages total abstinence.
- any self-restraint, self-denial, or forbearance.
- Economics. the conserving of current income in order to build up capital or savings.
- the state of being without a drug, as alcohol or heroin, on which one is dependent.
I hope the "shahr" and "hajj" issue is resolved soon too.
