The Message - Second Edition
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243 And uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel.
343 "O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel."
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Dwelling "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
3824 He said "He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few." And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented.
4829 ...you see them kneeling and prostrating...
I'd suggest you translate "ruku" as "bow" not "kneel".
Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
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Salam all,
OK, project is now complete. I am planning to upload the new files late tommorow.
If someone can have a glance at all the verb occurances of "salat" to ensure that they have been translated properly I would appreciate it.
Second Edition text
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdfSecond Edition cover
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/newcover.pdfTo Progressive
On the Ruku issue, it is not
bowbecause the act of Ruku can involve one doing so in a falling motion (see 3824). That is why I chose Kneel. -
Peace Layth,
Thank you for translating "salaat" as "bond" and "al-qur'aan" as "the reading". bravo bravo bravo
Finally some HUGE improvement. Keep up the good work.
Previously I had given up on The Message but now I am looking forward to buying the new edition. yay yay yay
A small suggestion "aqeem al-salaat" should be "uphold/establish the bond" instead of "hold".
Another important suggestion "sawm" should be translated to "abstinence" because it has been used in the qur'aan not only for fasting (which implies food and drink) but also from talking (Mary's abstinence), and from sex.
From dictionary.com
fast/f?st, fst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
?verb (used without object)
- to abstain from all food.
- to eat only sparingly or of certain kinds of food, esp. as a religious observance.
?verb (used with object)
- to cause to abstain entirely from or limit food; put on a fast to fast a patient for a day before surgery.
?noun
- an abstinence from food, or a limiting of one's food, esp. when voluntary and as a religious observance; fasting.
- a day or period of fasting.
abstinence/?bstnns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
?noun
- forbearance from any indulgence of appetite, esp. from the use of alcoholic beverages total abstinence.
- any self-restraint, self-denial, or forbearance.
- Economics. the conserving of current income in order to build up capital or savings.
- the state of being without a drug, as alcohol or heroin, on which one is dependent.
I hope the "shahr" and "hajj" issue is resolved soon too.
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Salam all,
OK, project is now complete. I am planning to upload the new files late tommorow.
If someone can have a glance at all the verb occurances of "salat" to ensure that they have been translated properly I would appreciate it.
Second Edition text
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdfSecond Edition cover
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/newcover.pdfTo Progressive
On the Ruku issue, it is not
bowbecause the act of Ruku can involve one doing so in a falling motion (see 3824). That is why I chose Kneel.Perhaps it means "bow DOWN". But your point is valid. I'll have a look on that issue for myself a bit later.
Nevertheless, some good corrections have been made.
I would change the cover though, if I were you. It looks exactly the same as the first edition. Perhaps a different color?I like that you quoted 22.
Good work!
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Peace Layth, all
I posted the following subject a while a go, please have a look when you have time.
Traditional interpretation of the Quran and the Translation of the Message 2nd edition
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598605.0
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I would change another thing. Instead of translating "ayat" as "revelations" you should use "signs".
Example
Instead of "I will turn away from My revelations..." (7146), It should be "I will turn away my SIGNS..."
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Peace Layth,
It should be "bonded" instead of "communed" in 7443. You changed it to bond everywhere else but I guess you overlooked that sign.
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Peace,
It should be "bonded" instead of "communed" in 7443. You changed it to bond everywhere else but I guess you overlooked that sign.
The changes for the printed edition are all based on the pdf file (in which 7443 is correctly translated as "bonded". What I believe you are referring to is the online Quran that is available on this site? If so, then that will not get fixed for another 2 weeks as I am travelling and do not have access to the source files (
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Peace Layth,
Finally, on
Recitation, yes, the Quran is a recitation and was never revealed as the Torah was being written in its original form. The prophet wrote it down, then he rearanged the verses according to the instructions he received from the Almighty.Except the ten commandments, all other portions of the Torah also were revealed as a recitation.
How do you know Muhammad rearranged the Quran in the present order after it was fully revealed, that too, in accordance with instructions from God? What is your proof for this belief? If Muhammad received instructions from God after completion of revelation of the entire Quran, why are you not considering these instructions as God's revelations which in this case must have formed part of the Quran? You are only following the baseless tale of your forefathers that the Quran is fully preserved and that the present Quran order was made by Muhammad as instructed by God.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Layth,
Except the ten commandments, all other portions of the Torah also were revealed as a recitation.
How do you know Muhammad rearranged the Quran in the present order after it was fully revealed, that too, in accordance with instructions from God? What is your proof for this belief? If Muhammad received instructions from God after completion of revelation of the entire Quran, why are you not considering these instructions as God's revelations which in this case must have formed part of the Quran? You are only following the baseless tale of your forefathers that the Quran is fully preserved and that the present Quran order was made by Muhammad as instructed by God.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace all,
17106
17106 and a reading we divided so that you read it unto the people regularly, and we sent down its divisions accordingly.2532
2532 And those who rejected said ?If only the Reading was sent down to him in one go!? It was done as such so we could strengthen your heart with it, and we arranged it accordingly.
2533
2533 And for every example they come to you with, we bring you the truth and the best explanation.731 732 733 734
731 O you, the one covered with his garments. 732 Stand the night except for a little. 733 Half of it, or less a little. 734 Or more a little, and arrange the Reading in its arrangement.In verses 17106 and 3532&33, God is confirming that the reading was not revealed all at once and has given us two reasons. 1- To strengthen the mind and heart of the Messenger and 2- To gradually build up a faithful community in a practical and realistic way and prepare whole new generations under Quran's education system, an era, history said it continued for 23 years.
God also in verse 17106 informed us that accordingly, he arranged the revelation of the reading to serve these purposes.
In verses 731 to 4 God is instructing the Messenger to arrange the reading according to its arrangement immediately after if has been revealed.
20114
20114 ? and do not rush into the reading before its revelation to you is complete?7516 7517 7518 7519
7516 Do not move your tongue with it to expedite it. 7517 It is for us to gather it and read it. 7518 So when we read it, you shall follow its Reading. 7519 Then it is for us to explain it.In verses 20114 and 7516, we see that God is instructing the Messenger not to rush into reading before its revelation is complete and not to move his tongue with it to expedite it. Here the questions are, how would anyone rush into reading something before it is fully revealed to him and how would he move his tongue "trying to read it" in order to expedite it.
Come to think of this, I take it that the book is the written format, and the reading is the vocal format. According to history and current known facts, The Quran was initially written in plan Arabic alphabet hence the existence of various readings till today.
In light of the above can we not consider that the Quran in its plan written format was engraved "downloaded directly" into the Messenger's Unconscious Memory? And that the gradual revelation was the reading "vocal format" that brought forward the engraved writing to the conscious memory. Can we not think that the Messenger was trying on his own by moving his tongue, to recite, vocally that is, to read what is already written inside his memory and wondering how would he be able to gather it all and arrange it as required? Therefore we can understand the instruction in verses 20114 and 7516-19.
Further more in verse 876 God tells the Messenger that he will make him read so he won't forget. 876 as a responce to the Messenger's thought that he is unable to remember what he knows that he already has inside him.Another point to make here is related to the stand alone letters that some chapters of the Quran start with, such as ALM, TH, TS and the like. When we read these letters we say their alphabetic names such as ALIF LAM MEEM and so on, however, in the written format these letters are connected in similar way to words. In another word, if someone is writing according to hearing alone, he would write the alphabetic names and if he is reading the written format alone, he would say them as words, connected letters that is.
Therefore we can say that for anyone to read and write these letters in correct form he must have knowledge of both reading and writing in order for him to instruct others and be able to verify what has been written.
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Peace mmouhammad,
Your reply does not address my questions. The core issue is whether the present order of the Quran text is the one dictated and authorised by God and how one can assuredly tell that the Quran has been preserved fully with no alteration or loss of portions of the original Quran.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Salam,
How do you know Muhammad rearranged the Quran in the present order after it was fully revealed, that too, in accordance with instructions from God? What is your proof for this belief? If Muhammad received instructions from God after completion of revelation of the entire Quran, why are you not considering these instructions as God's revelations which in this case must have formed part of the Quran? You are only following the baseless tale of your forefathers that the Quran is fully preserved and that the present Quran order was made by Muhammad as instructed by God.
I know that the Quran was rearranged different from the sequence it was revealed in by the following verses
16101 And if We exchange a revelation in place of another revelation; and God is more aware of what He is revealing; they say ?You are making this up!? Alas, most of them do not know.
16102 Say ?The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord with the truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted.?
Therefore, the answer to your question is yes, the verse regarding the arrangement itself was made part of the Quran.
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Peace mmouhammad,
Your reply does not address my questions. The core issue is whether the present order of the Quran text is the one dictated and authorised by God and how one can assuredly tell that the Quran has been preserved fully with no alteration or loss of portions of the original Quran.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace vivek, all
My post might have not given you a direct reply to your inquiry, nonetheless, it is very much related and a reflection on the related verses of the Reading; read verse 482;
482
482 Do they not reflect on the Reading? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy.However, in relation to your inquiry, I believe, heart and soul and accept what is said in verse 159 as the truth.
159
159 Indeed it is we who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is we who will preserve it.The reading is preserved in its arrangements and number of verses as it was gathered in the way The God deemed.
However, the plan " " Arabic alphabetic written version is the only true version of the Reading; all other currently accepted readings "recitations" and its translations are based on the man made understanding and grammatical rules.
I believe that the Quran does not and will not depend on any external proof; the Quran is sufficient by itself and it is the proof and the witness on itself. Read the following verses
7516 7517 7518 7519
7516 Do not move your tongue with it to expedite it. 7517 It is for us to gather it and read it. 7518 So when we read it, you shall follow its Reading. 7519 Then it is for us to explain it.I reflect, as we all should, on the Reading to learn more and more. We are told in very clear words that, if the reading was from any other than God, we would have found in it many discrepancies.
Anyway, for those who are not satisfied with verses 159, 482 and 7517-19, you can read for them verses 2849 & 50 and think about verse 4723 & 24.
2849 2850
2849 Say ?Then bring forth a book from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.? 2850 But if they fail to respond to you, then know that they follow only their desires. And who is more astray than he who follows his desire, without guidance from God? God does not guide the wicked people.
4723 4724
4723 These are the ones whom God has cursed and thus He made them deaf and blinded their sight. 4724 Do they not reflect on the Reading? Or are there locks on their hearts? -
Salam,
I know that the Quran was rearranged different from the sequence it was revealed in by the following verses
16101 And if We exchange a revelation in place of another revelation; and God is more aware of what He is revealing; they say ?You are making this up!? Alas, most of them do not know.
16102 Say ?The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord with the truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted.?
Therefore, the answer to your question is yes, the verse regarding the arrangement itself was made part of the Quran.
Peace Layth,
Can you address the points/questions that I had raised when debating with Pierre and others in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/Hope you will answer my questions as a sincere believer but not hypocritically as Pierre did.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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I agree Vivek's original questions (re-ordering the chapters, etc.) are quite scholarly, and most Muslims do not introspect these because they are carried by the sheer momentum of 'faith', which is quite natural. But SCHOLAR-MUSLIMS throughout the history have indeed asked the same questions to themselves. Being scholar, they went on painstaking "Review of Literature," something every PhD student has to in his/her doctoral research. Unlike research in material sciences, historical research is much more difficult, but there are GREAT scholars, too, who have done it, e.g., Sir Jadunath Sircar of India, who. compiled data and founded the history of India.
The Companions of the Prophet (called the Generation of Sahabis), their followers (called the Generation of Tabeyeen), and the third generation (called Tabe-Tabeyeen) took great pains to transmit BOTH internal (The Qur'an as we know it) AND external aspects (the special instructions on ordering, etc.) and historical backgrounds (what we call "shaan-e-nuzool" of the REVELATIONS. All these have been transmitted down to us through innumerable scholars of Islam, mostly in Arabic, Persian, and Turkish languages, but modern scholars have produced their work in English based on the earlier works, of which there are many available on the internet, too.
Obviously, nobody needs to prove what is proven, but can only give directions. So if you're ready to seek answers to the questions you've posed, you've got to go to the LIBRARY. References? When I asked my professor at the Indian School of Mines in 1982 to give me the 'starting references' so I could begin my Senior Project Research, he said
"Go to the library!"
I sure was disappointed, but had to do what I must do, and now I tell my graduate students exactly that.
Allama Mawdudi, in his Tafheemul Qur'an (hard copy), has given a brief glimpse of the history of Qur'an compilation. You may check out the internet version at
http//www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/quran/scriptq.htm
Another good ref. is the work of the German scholar, ahmad von Denfer, available at
http//www.quranicstudies.com/articles/history-of-the-quran/
There are so many printed books available through Amazon.com (http//www.amazon.com/Story-Quran-History-Place-Muslim/dp/1405122587), but for an INTEGRATED SOURCE IN ENGLISH, we have to wait a couple of years till a project currently underway is finished
http//www.iequran.com/
My personal view is that all MAN-MADE accounts of history can't be 100% error-free. Just think of the history of the World War 2, which is so recent, but who can say that there is ONE version which EVERYONE accepts???
Therefore, the authencity of the Qur'an, as Vivek has justly asked to know, must be found in the Qur'an itself, if and only if the Qur'an can answer it?
Can the Qur'an answer it?Taken scientifically, we've to collect different copies of Qur'an over space and time, put them to scrutiny, and see if there is any sensible difference (in meaning).
Then take another historical book of that era (or at least 1,300 years old), and subject it to same scrutiny as done with the Qur'an.
Finally, compare the error margin as observed in the Qur'an and the error margin as observed in the other Book.
Allama Mawdudi has alluded to such a test on Qur'an and reported zero difference. I do not know how authentic that report is.
But given the enormous wealth that the Muslim world possesses, such a major undertaking could be taken. May be that's what the above-mentioned project is about
http//www.iequran.comI suggest the 'other Book' be the Bible, which has comparable space-time spread as the Qur'an.
Note I can't resist chuckling at this stage, rotfl There are so many DIFFERENT AUTHENTIC VERSIONS of the Bible, that spending a dollar to the above-mentioned test can hardly be justified. Yet, a cursory look at the internet shows how many great Christian pundits have spent years to pinpoint 'discrepancies' at the Qur'an, all the while ignoring their fallacies shown to them....
And the very reason the Qur'an was revealed is precisely that, as the Qur'an says, i.e., man-made errors of omission and commission in the Bible, then the Qur'an declaring time and again that no such errors will be allowed in the Qur'an. On who is the onus of verifying this challenge of the Qur'an?
Rafiqul
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Peace Rafiqul and everyone else,
The facts of Quran's alteration and loss of parts of it are presented in the link below which can be viewed by "copy and paste the URL"
F\2869295 Myth 1 the Quran is Preserved and Unchanged Revelation From Allah.htm
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Layth,
congrats on the translation - it turned out very well. When is it coming to quranix.net or going to be on sale?
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I suggest the 'other Book' be the Bible, which has comparable space-time spread as the Qur'an.
Note I can't resist chuckling at this stage, rotfl There are so many DIFFERENT AUTHENTIC VERSIONS of the Bible, that spending a dollar to the above-mentioned test can hardly be justified. Yet, a cursory look at the internet shows how many great Christian pundits have spent years to pinpoint 'discrepancies' at the Qur'an, all the while ignoring their fallacies shown to them....
Peace,
You are kidding, right?
The books of the bible were penned over a period stretching several hundreds of years, in three languages, and by multiple authors. The Quran was penned by one man over the course of his lifetime, and in one language.
Please explain to me how the bible and the quran have a comparable space-time spread.
-Joel
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Salaam, will this be available as an actual book to purchase?
