the Quran definitely discourages capital punishment ------- RK

Q_student

Salaam Brothers and sisters

In dealing with murder, the Quran definitely discourages capital punishment (2179). "The free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female" (217. Due to human meanness and injustice, many people cannot even imagine what this Quranic law says. They refuse to accept the clear injunctions that strict equivalence must be observed - if a woman kills a man, or a man kills a woman, or a slave kills a free person, or a free person kills a slave, capital punishment cannot be applied. The Quran prefers that the murderer compensate the victim's family. Killing the murderer does not bring the victim back, nor does the family of the victim benefit from executing the murderer. The compensation, however, must be sufficient to be a deterrent for others. In Islam (Submission), the victim and/or the victim's family are the judges for all crimes; they decide what the punishment shall be under the supervision of a person who knows the Quran.

Source http//www.submission.ws/quran/appendices/appendix37.html

But Quran says

Regards

TAJ

Student,

So what is it, iyo, that RK did not get?

Bigmo

Student,

So what is it, iyo, that RK did not get?

Please quote the verse fully and quote other verses relevant also

2.178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

And

5.27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah. It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.
"For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."
The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.
Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-
On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land

This is a clear reference to abolishing capital punishment is accepted from the Koran regarding murder privided that the murdered is isolated from the rest of the community one way or the other.

And also

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

5.44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel

There is no communal laws mentioned in the Gospel yet the Koran considered it a law and an open way(shariah and manhaj). So the Koran here is talking about the religious rulings. It gave us guidelines as to how we run societies and its human laws offering a ceiling of the most and least we can do. But the Koran did not come to establish a theocracy and it would not have insisted that Christians rule by the Gospel if its intention was theological and not theocratic. The theocracy can change due to circumstances but the theology of the 3 books are identical. At least to me it is and thats how i understand these verses. What is the theology

The verse before the QISAS verse reads

2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

So the difference between the Koran and the previous scriptures is not religious, they are the same religion. The difference is communal, and i believe the difference between the communities is the Talmud, the Church and the divinity of Jesus, and the Sunnah.

If you are going to practice capital punishment then try to be as just as you can and as specific as you can regarding the perpetrator and his victims, if not then protect the society from him or her.

TAJ

Peace Bigmo,

Please quote the verse fully and quote other verses relevant also

Which verse do you want me to quote fully!? In my post, I did not quote any verse. I was asking Student a question.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

(217 O you who believe, equivalence is
the law decreed for you when
dealing with murder--the free
for the free, the slave for the slave,
the female for the female. If one is
pardoned by the victim's kin,
an appreciative response is in order,
and an equitable compensation
shall be paid. This is an alleviation
from your Lord and mercy. Anyone
who transgresses beyond this incurs
a painful retribution.

(2179) Equivalence is a life saving law for
you, O you who possess intelligence,
that you may be righteous.

Q_student

(217 O you who believe, equivalence is
the law decreed for you when
dealing with murder--the free
for the free, the slave for the slave,
the female for the female. If one is
pardoned by the victim's kin,
an appreciative response is in order,
and an equitable compensation
shall be paid. This is an alleviation
from your Lord and mercy. Anyone
who transgresses beyond this incurs
a painful retribution.

(2179) Equivalence is a life saving law for
you, O you who possess intelligence,
that you may be righteous.

Dear Brother
If you have translated the word " as "Equivalence", please provide the evidence for it.

Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear Brother
If you have translated the word " as "Equivalence", please provide the evidence for it.

Regards

OK... I dont know arabic as I have already told you. I am getting this from translations. Besides, why do you always ask for proof of meanings of words?? This is just like the issue we had with "arab" meaning "arab".

I will give you various translations of 2179

Equivalence is a life saving law for
you, O you who possess intelligence,
that you may be righteous. (Translated by Rashad Khalifa)

Through equivalent execution, you will be protecting life, O you who possess intelligence,
that you may be righteous. (Translated by Edip Y?ksel)

And through equivalence you will be protecting life, O people of understanding,
that you may be righteous. (Translated by "The Monotheist Group&quot

In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding;
that ye may restrain yourselves. (Translated by Yusuf Ali)

Q_student

OK... I dont know arabic as I have already told you. I am getting this from translations. Besides, why do you always ask for proof of meanings of words?? This is just like the issue we had with "arab" meaning "arab".

I will give you various translations of 2179

Equivalence is a life saving law for
you, O you who possess intelligence,
that you may be righteous. (Translated by Rashad Khalifa)

Through equivalent execution, you will be protecting life, O you who possess intelligence,
that you may be righteous. (Translated by Edip Y?ksel)

And through equivalence you will be protecting life, O people of understanding,
that you may be righteous. (Translated by "The Monotheist Group&quot

In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding;
that ye may restrain yourselves. (Translated by Yusuf Ali)

Dear Brother
As I have always told you RK was a Cheat and Edip is his followers. Quran does not allow me to trust such persons.
Yusaf Ali translate it "Equality". Equality is not equal to Equivalence.
Mangoes are equal to mangoes
Mangoes are not equal to dollars but may be equivalent to dollars.
Equality is somewhat acceptable but not Equivalence. Please in future never quote illiterate persons.
Regards

Bigmo

(217 O you who believe, equivalence is
the law decreed for you when
dealing with murder--the free
for the free, the slave for the slave,
the female for the female. If one is
pardoned by the victim's kin,
an appreciative response is in order,
and an equitable compensation
shall be paid. This is an alleviation
from your Lord and mercy. Anyone
who transgresses beyond this incurs
a painful retribution.

(2179) Equivalence is a life saving law for
you, O you who possess intelligence,
that you may be righteous.

The Koran could be talking about revenge killings, very common among the tribes which usually ends up out of control. But I really do not see your point. What exactly are you trying to say?

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

The Koran could be talking about revenge killings, very common among the tribes which usually ends up out of control. But I really do not see your point. What exactly are you trying to say?

Brother Q_s is trying to refute the fact that the Quran discourages capital punishment, and I am giving a counter-arguement for that. God definitely condemns revenge/"honor" killings. Revenge/"honor" killing is a form of aggression.

Note the following in (217

"...If one is pardoned by the victim's kin, an appreciative response is in order,
and an equitable compensation shall be paid."

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Brother
As I have always told you RK was a Cheat and Edip is his followers. Quran does not allow me to trust such persons.
Yusaf Ali translate it "Equality". Equality is not equal to Equivalence.
Mangoes are equal to mangoes
Mangoes are not equal to dollars but may be equivalent to dollars.
Equality is somewhat acceptable but not Equivalence. Please in future never quote illiterate persons.
Regards

This is not the first knee-jerk nonsence produced by Q_student. He is splitting the literary hair of a word, yet unable to comprehend that such a literary nuance has no relevancy in this argument.

This will be my last post as a reply to this person.

Peace,
Edip

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

This is not the first knee-jerk nonsence produced by Q_student. He is splitting the literary hair of a word, yet unable to comprehend that such a literary nuance has no relevancy in this argument.

This will be my last post as a reply to this person.

Peace,
Edip

peace Exactly. Dear Q_student, I think just because you oppose Rashad Khalifa you attack all of his views. If a Bahai comes to you and says "worhship God alone", do you object just because he is a Bahai???

@ Edip

Please respond to the PM which I sent to you about salaat/namaz

Q_student

Dear Q_student, I think just because you oppose Rashad Khalifa you attack all of his views. If a Bahai comes to you and says "worhship God alone", do you object just because he is a Bahai???

Brother Peace
It is the point where you are misguided by Richard Kalif alias Rashid Khalifa.
Quran says

631

(631) O Prophet, when the hypocrites come to you, they say, "We bear witness that you are indeed Allah's Messenger." Yes, Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, but Allah bars witness that these Hypocrites are utter liars.

It is clearly says that a "shahaadah" of a munaafiq is not acceptable though it may be 100% correct.Because he must be speaking the truth to cheat and dodge the people
Regards

TAJ

Student,

Brother Peace
It is the point where you are misguided by Richard Kalif alias Rashid Khalifa.
Quran says

631

(631) O Prophet, when the hypocrites come to you, they say, "We bear witness that you are indeed Allah's Messenger." Yes, Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger, but Allah bars witness that these Hypocrites are utter liars.

It is clearly says that a "shahaadah" of a munaafiq is not acceptable though it may be 100% correct.Because he must be speaking the truth to cheat and dodge the people
Regards

You clearly are projecting.

As I have always told you RK was a Cheat and Edip is his followers. Quran does not allow me to trust such persons.
Yusaf Ali translate it "Equality". Equality is not equal to Equivalence.
Mangoes are equal to mangoes
Mangoes are not equal to dollars but may be equivalent to dollars.
Equality is somewhat acceptable but not Equivalence. Please in future never quote illiterate persons.

whatever

TAJ

Student,

Dear Brother
As I have always told you RK was a Cheat and Edip is his followers. Quran does not allow me to trust such persons.
Yusaf Ali translate it "Equality". Equality is not equal to Equivalence.
Mangoes are equal to mangoes
Mangoes are not equal to dollars but may be equivalent to dollars.
Equality is somewhat acceptable but not Equivalence. Please in future never quote illiterate persons.
Regards

Not all mangoes are equal. No mangos are equal to Alfonso's. And this special treat http//s174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/HouseView/?action=view&current=Camel-Mango-Pickle-Big.jpg has no equal in market.

Samia

Salaam Brothers and sisters

Source http//www.submission.ws/quran/appendices/appendix37.html

But Quran says

Regards

Salaam Student

I also believe that there is no capital punishment in the quraan. This verse, IMO, has nothing to do with people. Does it mean if a slave of mine is killed by a free, the free should not be killed for him and only a slave should take the punishment?!
Moeover, means equivalnce, compensation. From the root is derived the word / story, which is the verbal equivalent of what really happend in reality. Aslo in the qur'aan we have the verse 1864

Moses said "That was what we were seeking after" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come).
Which means they made an equal journy back on their footsteps.

Q_student

Salaam Student

I also believe that there is no capital punishment in the quraan. This verse, IMO, has nothing to do with people. Does it mean if a slave of mine is killed by a free, the free should not be killed for him and only a slave should take the punishment?!
Moeover, means equivalnce, compensation. From the root is derived the word / story, which is the verbal equivalent of what really happend in reality. Aslo in the qur'aan we have the verse 1864

Moses said "That was what we were seeking after" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come).
Which means they made an equal journy back on their footsteps.

Salaam Sister

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Quran says

Regards

Samia

Salaam Student

It's again circular argument. You do not redo the steps when it's "following the traces", nor do you reenact the events when you retell a story, otherwise, qasaas would mean copy. It's not. It's equivalent. Otherwise tell me what's the meaning of ? Is it to excute a "free man" if the victim is a free man, irrespective of who the murderer is?

If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever) And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

Where's capital punishment here?

Q_student

Salaam Student

It's again circular argument. You do not redo the steps when it's "following the traces", nor do you reenact the events when you retell a story, otherwise, qasaas would mean copy. It's not. It's equivalent. Otherwise tell me what's the meaning of ? Is it to excute a "free man" if the victim is a free man, irrespective of who the murderer is?

If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever) And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

Where's capital punishment here?

Dear Samia
I think you are struck up.
What is the meaning of Qisaas as per your understanding.
Please provide the evidence for it .Thanks

Samia

Dear Samia
I think you are struck up.
What is the meaning of Qisaas as per your understanding.
Please provide the evidence for it .Thanks

Salaam student

Why should I answer your questions and give evidence if you do not bother to reply to the question I asked you twice? You are the one who brought up verse 2178 without explaining what you understand of qasaas in its context. You are not debating, but sitting like a chief inspector asking questions and demanding proof!