Question for Sister Samia
-
Thanks again, but to remove any ambiguities in this discussion. Would you please name "the round" sign in the text in question. First one happens to be on second Lam and second one on Yaa.
Badar
I am not a kid in a kindergarten, and I hate to be tested.
What we are discussing has no effect on the words of God, which were revealed without these diacritical signs. By now you should have known what I think just as I know where your questions lead to, going around and around to say sukuun (or jazm, according to you) is the end of a word and the beginning of another. If you do not want to accept my understanding, fair enough. I am not taking yours, and it's fair enough, too.
Let's agree to disagree. -
No reason to be upset sister. I asked you a simple question please label, rounded marks in the text, put the definition on them; from the elegant write up of yours above. These marks that you know what they are, based on your knowledge. But you are free not to, I respect your freedom. I have never asked you to agree with me. It is purely an academic discussion; so far no personal opinions involved or are there?
Pecae,
Badar
-
Dear and respected Sister Samia, I would never treat you with disrespect, so even do not imagine that. Final question in our discussion of, weather Jezm indicate end of a word or not? Do you consider Sibawayhi and his Al-Kitab as a respectable authority in Arabic grammar or not? My understanding is, when one says word Alkitab; more Arabs think of Sibawayhi's AlKitab, than real AlKitab.
Badar
-
Fair enough dear sis, how would you identify the "round mark" on second Lam in red, of this construct and second one on Ya. Thanks
Badar
There is no such "round mark" anywhere on this word throughout in the Grand Qur'aan. Only on the second lam there is a jezm on it. The word which is placed in colour seems to be the Urdu version of Qur'aan.
-
I have swiftly gone through first 100 Aa'ya'at of Chapter 2 and have noted that round mark only appears on the alif if it is at the end of a word, and it appears on waw in between in the word Aoulaika "these/they are". On no other word/consonant this sign appears. Pl throw some light on it.
-
Sister Samia it appears, that you have choosen not to answer my question about Sibawayhi and his Al-Kitab. However, irrespective of your answer. His position as Arab Linguist and Grammarian is established and well know. One way of resolving a disagreement between educated people is to call upon witness of an authority. Hence, I call upon his AlKitab, to support my argument that "Jezm" indeed does indicate end of a word. Please see below, chapter 2 of AlKitab. This whole chapter is dedicated to markers of end of words.
http//www.jalt.net/jaltusr/CurrJournals/SaraJalt1.pdf
Peace.
Badar
-
Hence, I call upon his AlKitab, to support my argument that "Jezm" indeed does indicate end of a word. Please see below, chapter 2 of AlKitab. This chapter is dedicated to markers of end of words.
http//www.jalt.net/jaltusr/CurrJournals/SaraJalt1.pdf
Peace.
Badar
I was hardly connected during the week-end.
Saying that "jazm" is a marker of end of words is not the same as saying it indicates the end of a word. Mmoreover, according to Sibawayh, (and it's well known), nouns are not subjecte to jazm. Also, jazm can be demonstrated in different ways, and not just a simple "sukuun" at the end of the word.
Three main points from the book of Sibaway which you quote a link of
-
Pages 3738 jazm, raf3, nasb and jarr are all signs of "i3raab grammar", which is "removable", i.e not pemanent and is changed according to the function/position of the word (such as the end signs for a noun when it's direct object, indirect object or subject)and affects the end of words. Mirroring these four "channels" are waqf; damm; fat7 and kasr, which are signs of "binaa' built-ins", and are permanent example the preposition "min ", where the sukuun is permanent whatever the position of the preposition is.
-
Pages 38-39 There's no "jarr/inclination" in a verb and there's no "jazm" for a noun.
-
Pages 44-45 The sign of jazm for verbs conjugated to the plural masculin, the dual and the second person feminine is the removal of the "nuun". This is also the sign of "nasb". In other words, the "nuun" is the sign of "raf3" and its disappearance is an indication that the verb is either in a state of nasb or jazm.
-
-
If I understand you correct. You are wondering about second Jezm on the word. It was a cut and paste from openburhan site, please check Sura 2
http//www.openburhan.com/Badar
I wondered about this
Thanks again, but to remove any ambiguities in this discussion. Would you please name "the round" sign in the text in question. First one happens to be on second Lam and second one on Yaa.
I find the original text like this where there is no "the round" sign.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.002b.gif -
which are signs of "binaa' built-ins", and are permanent example the preposition "min ", where the sukuun is permanent whatever the position of the preposition is
But Sister I find many places where there is no sign on "nun" of "min"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.004.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.005.gif -
But Sister I find many places where there is no sign on "nun" of "min"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.004.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.005.gifThe book in question is not the qur'aan but Sibawayh's. He mentiond prepositions and I just gave an example. I could have said "some pronouns" and here it is on this verse
-
But Sister I find many places where there is no sign on "nun" of "min"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.004.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.005.gifPeace
Regards
-
Dear Sister Samia, am I understanding you correct that you are implying following understanding, after reading Alkitab. The "Jazm" is a marker of end of words in Arabic words.
I was quoting what you said. I would define it as one of the channels by which ends of verbs are defined. It could also affect parts other than or together with ends. One of the ways to demonstrate it is having a sukuun on the last consonnant of the verb. Nouns or built-on words cannot have jazm.
-
Sister I never said a jazm is a "Marker of end of a word". I have always said and implied Jazm, to indicates end of word. Please show me any of my post that shows where I said Jazm used as "Marker of end of a word". Thanks.
Badar
I said I was quoting what you said, here
to support my argument that "Jezm" indeed does indicate end of a word. Please see below, chapter 2 of AlKitab. This whole chapter is dedicated to markers of end of words.
And since these markers include jazm, therefore I can understand from his that jazm is a marker of end of words.
-
Thank you for clarification. I am glad that you brought up, this understanding of yours; that, the Jazm implies ?a marker? of end of word and not a complete end of word. Let me explain, why I think this concept of ?word end marker? to be extremely important, in reference to our understanding of AlKitab; where innumerable Jazms are used. In written script, what appears to be one word, in fact lot of these are compound words i.e., combination of several words. If one were to accept the notion, that Arabic is only cursive, just like English and word end is solely indicated by a space between these words. One is faced with a grave problem of assigning incorrect roots to such words and hence, incorrect meanings. However, by realizing Jazm as "a word end marker". One could avoid the pitfall of so called ?one words? in writing. In addition, it enhances the concept of compound words, indicated by Jazm marks. Furthermore, this enables us to understand and not to continue to assign just one three letter root to these so called compound ?one words? which is very likely without paying attention to the Jazms; the markers indicating end of word. If we continue to assign roots like we do now. We risk that the true message might even be further lost. This notion would be even more important and relevant in current digital media and online age. Where in, all likelihood the probability of future generations going back to written books again is getting to be a remote possibility with every passing day.
Badar