CAN ALLAH BE EVERYWHERE

FreedomStands

Freedomstands,

Try to honestly work on Quran and any person in the world would see that the available Arabic is a language fabricated on top of another language. The clerics who wrote hadith and all that, they decided the meanings of what Quran was going to say. The fabrication is already done. I cannot do something that has already been done.

The majority of my arguments here are based on information you can find in ancient lexicons, so I am not inventing a new language on top of another. Otherwise I would not find the definitions in those lexicons since once upon a time they were being used as they are gathered in an old lexicon. It is their etymology.

Right definitions are intertwined with false ones since those clerics I mentioned did invent religiously purposed meanings of the words to suit their doctrine, i.e. the sect Islam.

There is no "Devil's advocate" except yourself and your shortcomings.

Are you are that there are something more than 5 peer reviewed linguists in the world who specialize in the Semitic languages and Arabic?

You're saying that all those linguists and specialists, the non-Muslim ones, are all not doing their job at all? Why don't you email some of them and let them know.

That isn't mockery, seriously. If they are all insane with no basis whatsoever, no knowledge of the intricacies of language development and meaning or any of those areas of linguistics, why don't you let them know by sending them emails at least?

Man_of_Faith

Hi,

It is wrong to say insane. They are just specialists at an invented language which works like a normal language except that it is some language on top of another authentic language. It is easy to be deluded in this world. But it is good to react when someone comes and stirs up the truth to the surface.

FreedomStands

Hi,

It is wrong to say insane. They are just specialists at an invented language which works like a normal language except that it is some language on top of another authentic language. It is easy to be deluded in this world. But it is good to react when someone comes and stirs up the truth to the surface.

What is the difference between "authentic" and "invented"?

OnlyOneGod

lol you should read my writing on this website.

A good starting point might be this one

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607626.0

whereas other ideas might appear here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607557.0

and more recently

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg371947#msg371947

The beliefs of Man of Faith might be something as follows

Ever since an early point he has been gradually brought into contact with certain experiences which have continued to be part of guiding him towards his current beliefs.

He believes he has realized that each letter of the Semitic languages, has its own meaning and then each of those individual meanings can be added together for the meaning of the three letter root words. This is not how linguists generally do it, but how Man of Faith says he does it. If he always does it this way, or how exactly he determines such things isn't entirely clear, and there may be some aspect of "inspiration" involved rather than a purely scientific method or procedure.

His beliefs are generally easy to understand in their plainest description

God is the "ground of all existence", the "mainframe" in which "real intelligences" such as us human beings, operate and choose freely, while supported by the overall reality which is God.

We are abstract non bodily spirits attached to bodies in order to learn how to control our desires and resist sensual temptations and who masters this will then be removed from their body and be made what he calls a "Malakat" (hopefully not a Male Kat), which will be "Rulers" or "Administrators" over the heathen masses or reality or something.

God will leave things to the freedom of people to choose what they will, this way or that way, and then will "harvest" the best results, leaving the rest to "reincarnate into Gehennem" or something which he says is the body.

I've only mainly said to him that I'm ahead of him in the detachment business, to urge him on in what he preaches to people. Not that I personally think anything of detachment so much, I just happen to have had so many experiences that have ironically placed me in a situation that makes me unable to comprehend what the heck people are on about with their weird desires for things like alcohol, sex, and whatever else.

Generally I can be seen writing about the almost the exact opposite of his beliefs. This I also say can help him to refine his views, in either way he might take it, so he continues to adjust or refine how he states things and whatever.

My beliefs are in accord with the Qur'an and other scriptures, and are extremely simple

God is the Ultimate, not made of information or anything so like nothing, with the power to create, which means the power to generate information out of nothing and based on nothing. Ex nihilo.

God creates information, information is what we are, and what we are is whatever we experience, all God given entirely. God has no needs and is not condition based but unconditioned, and so freely creates whatever at all God wills.

So I skip all concerns about "systems" or "in between details" mostly, and stick to the very bottom line, which for me is "God does what God wills" and anything that exists is the will of God, good or evil, beneficial or harmful, All is from God directly and God is the sole creator and destroyer.

Our entire experience is information created by God, even our thoughts, our will, our desires are all part of God's creation and "information" in our experience, and there is no other creator, chooser, controller, determiner, or anything else no matter what name one calls the Ultimate by.

God can thus make Man of Faith's fantasies true, just as God has produced those fantasies in the first place for Man of Faith, and God can also do anything else, and whatever is done is God's will.

The scriptures tend to say that God has created everything and will place certain creations on a New Earth in a bodily form after a bodily Resurrection, some in Hell and some in the Gardens of the New Earth, Paradise.

Man of Faith doesn't believe in that which is the hope of so many throughout the ages.

My answer is that God can certainly do it or anything else too. God is our only hope, our only savior.

On this website, I am the primary and foremost Muslim, however arrogant that might sound, its because my views are carefully in accord with what the mainstream translations of the Qur'an tend to say.

There are few other Muslims of some quality on this website, but each of them might go a little weirder here and there.

In the meantime, my views at times might seem weird or I might use controversial tactics or statements, but since this is an Islamic website, I generally say what can be well defended using the Qur'an, and I have shown numerous examples of things and made clear arguments for my cases.

Many people on this website, or the majority even, do not pray, do not believe in paradise as described in the mainstream translations of the Qur'an, they do not fast, they might not even give much in charity or have a charitable attitude, they promote varieties of shirk knowingly and unknowingly, and are generally the most evil scum imaginable, and I really hate them for the most part. A God given hatred and disgust for evil lying misleading illogical trash spreaders.

If anyone conforms strictly to what I promote, which is from the Qur'an, they will learn about the Surrender and what it is to know it in its deepest and most terrifying and peace inducing form.

The religion, in its mainstream Qur'anic version is as follows (and most people do not abide by this on this website or argue about both the big points and the little points)

Muhammed was the messenger of God who recited by God's will the Qur'an to the people, containing information which they could understand and follow if God so willed them to follow it. Others were misled.

The Qur'an is one in a series of prior revelations given to people, the current Biblical scriptures are full of slander and corruption. God is responsible for everything, good and bad in every detail as it is all information and can not exist except as God makes it to "Be".

It is prescribed in the Qur'an, and has been performed since ancient times, and early times after the Qur'an, to worship formally throughout the day at certain time periods, and this method is carried on by the Muslims with whatever differences may exist from more ancient forms since they had different scriptures or whatever and languages, but generally the cleansing purification, standing, bowing, prostrating, and even the hands folded posture and other things are very ancient, and saying prayers and praises like that was common throughout the whole world, even if some were erroneously doing it to idols or false concepts. The number of "watches" of the day have been generally 5 periods, but also a 6th can be included deep in the middle of the night or early morning. The Zoroastrians for example had "5 Gahs".

The fasting is prescribed and has generally been understood to be during the month known as Ramadan, fasting from before sunrise to after sunset, eating during the non day or non sun periods every day for the full month.

Mecca has long been considered a place of pilgrimage, and though it had fallen into polytheism, certain practices were permitted to be continued and have continued since and this is approved of and promoted in the mainstream versions of the Qur'an and is considered one of the "5 pillars" that is typical to Muslims and Islam, to go there if possible at least once in a lifetime.

The promotion of extensive charity and charitableness within reason (so as not to "destroy yourself&quot is repeatedly promoted in the Qur'an and is one of the most important aspects of Islam, it does not mean only "giving money", especially if a person doesn't have money to give, but should pervade all aspects of life from the "small kindnesses" to the decency and knightliness which should be the primary concern for the Muslim, looking for every opportunity to do good and be good and demonstrate the beauty of goodness and kindness and the relief of suffering and anxiety and fighting of injustice.

This striving is called Jihad and should be a constant aspect of the Muslim's life, and is considered by some to be a "6th pillar" due to its importance and the repeated reminder to "vie one another" in good works and excellence and strive hard as in a state of war against evil and suffering and wickedness using goodness and nobility and dignity and justice tempered with mercy as your sword and the logic and strategem of God as your shield and refuge.

The Muslim knows and believes in the following based on the Qur'an

The seen and the unseen, the books, the prophets, and whatever the Qur'an says is true or can be true.

The jinn are a real race of beings created out of real material just as humans are a real race of beings created out of a real material and are not a fantasy.

The angels are a real group of creations of Allah that can be added to or changed just like anything else, and work as God's agents and emissaries at times on various missions or tasks.

It is God doing everything and seeing everything, good or bad, there is no power or strength or intelligence or option except whatever God wills and God performs. All credit is due to God, and all the responsibility is God's responsibility, All is from God whether it be harm or benefit, and God alone controls all things.

Eliminate all shirk from the mentality and all implications of "others" and "other deciding factors" and purify religion for Allah only, so that you may prosper.

There is no other religion but acknowledging and coming to terms with the Surrender, and this can only be granted to whosoever God wills of what God creates. Who God does not guide, they can never know or be guided. God is the Ultimate, the Source of all in the microcosm and the macrocosm in every nuance, there is no other.

Feel free to email me or ask me any questions about anything, even other religions. [email protected]

In the end God can bring about the real paradise and the real hell, which are part of the New Earth which God can bring about, and place within one and place within the other, whatever God wills of God's slaves, God's creations.

Things like the Sun and Hell are described in a way that makes them appear living or given a kind of responsive ability by God who animates and gives life to whatever exists as God so wills.

So fight the disbelievers on this website, and make sure your religion is in accordance with what I am saying here strictly, and you'll hopefully feel very good with that.

Salaam Freedonstands,

Seems like you and I agree on 99% of things. The only thing I would like to discuss with you, after viewing the links to your other postings, is your view on the free will (or lack thereof) of mankind. You say that man is no more than a puppet controlled by the creator. Then what in your view is the reason for our creation? Why does God say that he is the most beneficent the most merciful, if everything that we do is what he actually dictates and we have no say in it one way or the other. There can be no mercy without a wrongdoing and there can be no wrongdoing without some level of free will.

By accepting your view, one would have to conclude that the people who commit crimes throughout their lives and die without ever being caught or convicted, will have no retribution for their actions, either in this world or the hereafter. Because how can there be a hell created for the wicked if the wicked are no more than puppets without any will of their own. Allah (SWT) is the most Just, and burning people in hell with no fault of their own would not be justice.

"And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter for we have turned unto Thee." He said "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all things.That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;- (Surah Al-A?raf, 156)

How can people believe in signs when it is only God (according to you) controlling all aspects of what they believe and who they believe.

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah At-Tawba, 3"

How could Allah (SWT) ask this of mankind if when the going forth and not going forth is both directly controlled by Allah and not by the man whom this is being addressed to.

FreedomStands

Salaam Freedonstands,

Seems like you and I agree on 99% of things. The only thing I would like to discuss with you,

after viewing the links to your other postings, is your view on the free will (or lack

thereof) of mankind. You say that man is no more than a puppet controlled by the creator.

Then what in your view is the reason for our creation? Why does God say that he is the most

beneficent the most merciful, if everything that we do is what he actually dictates and we

have no say in it one way or the other. There can be no mercy without a wrongdoing and there

can be no wrongdoing without some level of free will.

By accepting your view, one would have to conclude that the people who commit crimes

throughout their lives and die without ever being caught or convicted, will have no

retribution for their actions, either in this world or the hereafter. Because how can there

be a hell created for the wicked if the wicked are no more than puppets without any will of

their own. Allah (SWT) is the most Just, and burning people in hell with no fault of their

own would not be justice.

"And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter for we have turned

unto Thee." He said "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all

things.That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and

those who believe in Our signs;- (Surah Al-A?raf, 156)

How can people believe in signs when it is only God (according to you) controlling all

aspects of what they believe and who they believe.

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the

cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the

Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah

At-Tawba, 3"

How could Allah (SWT) ask this of mankind if when the going forth and not going forth is both

directly controlled by Allah and not by the man whom this is being addressed to.

All your questions are answered in the Qur'an. Lets see if we can bring that 99% to 100%, but

first of all, based on your questions, you're not actually understanding the views I

presented in the way I intended (and this isn't any big fault of yours exclusively, most

people don't understand at first, and only very few do later anyway, so lets see if you can

"get it" or not).

Firstly, the "free will" issue changes nothing. "What happens happens", so it is practically

irrelevent entirely. What you know as "free will" and the experience which you are referring

to, is not being denied here at all. You certainly experience "choice" and "make decisions"

and whatever else, those are real experiences, I experience that too of course.

The question is about making the claim that "Chance" is the determining power, and "God

leaves it to Chance, God doesn't know, God doesn't control". The bottom line in all cases is

simply that whatever is Ultimate is what is responsible for and encompassing all the

experiences. Those experiences are a creation, and there is nothing at all created except by

the Ultimate. If someone says "Allah does not choose" "we decide what is created" they are

really saying "it can go this way, it can go that way, God doesn't know, God doesn't create

it, and because it goes either this way or that way, it is Chance that determines which way

it will go". There simply is no such thing as Chance as a secondary power which God relies

on, except if we use Chance as a name of God, then it is fine. Not sure if this clarification

is making any sense whatsoever, but please think carefully about what I am saying and the

implications of what people are saying.

Now in the quotes I provided in the links, if one reads them in their entirety, and reads

even the ones from the Bible, and looks into history, we see that it was generally understood

that God is the determiner of everything, even by the name of Chance or Fate. Odin was known

as the "fetterer of the will" and the Bible repeatedly shows that the people are in fact

logically controlled by whatever is truly Ultimate. If one's view descends into "less than

Ultimate" then it can be comprehended that "less than Ultimate" does not have "Ultimate

control", but that isn't the Power of which I speak. So if one has a definition of God which

is "less than Ultimate", then it simply isn't the God of which I am talking. Most people

worship other Gods, even if they don't realize it or are "Muslims" or whatever else. The

Ultimate has a clear logical explanation and definition, it is about linguistics and

mathematical precision and reasoning to understand "what must be Ultimate" and "what therefor

is not Ultimate". When one understands things like this, then it isn't too difficult

hopefully to process what statements being made have what implications and trying to find

"What is Ultimate" in any sentence. This is how you can purify yourself also of shirk

entirely, even if you are 99% there.

"What happens, happens". So call God "Happens" if that is the "Ultimate determiner". Sounds

weird doesn't it, but maybe you feel some part of your mind opening up, where it almost

starts to make sense.

Now to let the Qur'an speak in response to your questions

"Then what in your view is the reason for our creation?"

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And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they obey Me.
Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni (slaves)

But-but-but! They don't! Do they? So is someone who says they don't, suggesting that Allah

failed in the creation? That it "slipped"? That Allah made an error? That some other power

(Chance) determined that Allah did not create exactly what was intended? That Allah is a

failure, Allah has failed, Allah did not get what Allah wanted, Allah wanted something and

didn't get it. Poor baby allah, aww, did the widdle creation slip out of your baby hand

m'lord? Aww, isn't that cute, isn't that sad, aww your "needs" are not met, aww you didny geh

wuh yu wunted, ohhh poor allah, baby allah didn't get what he wanted, baby Allah failed in

his creation. IS THAT IT? IS THAT IT? HUH? HUH? Nay! N'e'e'e'e.

Behold!

6102
That is Allah, your Lord, there is no god but He; the Creator of everything whatsoever

, therefore serve Him, and He has charge of all things.

383
Do they seek, perchance, a faith other than in God, although it is unto Him that whatever

is in the heavens and on earth surrenders itself, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him

all must return?

Oh MahaKal! You are the Eternal Truth! You are the Death and the Destruction! You are the

Destiny and the Goal! The Triumph through Defeat, which is the Surrender! Blessed Be the

King! All are fallen! Standing only at your command! Hast thou given them knowledge of it? It

is you who Know! Fall into rank, all you travelers and pilgrims of the Great Death, if you

are made slaves, and not, if you are made rebels!

1315
And before God prostrate themselves, willingly or unwillingly, all that are in the

heavens and on earth, as do their shadows in the mornings and the evenings. (Just like

the Shadows, will you be Ninja like me?)

Defy me at your own peril! Whatever you do, it is the will of God that you do it!

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But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.

8129
But you cannot will it unless God, the Sustainer of all the worlds, wills it.

224
But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and

stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

1823
And do not say of anything I will do it tomorrow,
1824
but that you add If God so wills. And remember thy Lord when thou hadst forgotten. And say

Perhaps my Lord will guide me nearer to right mindedness than this.

4224
DO THEY, perchance, say, ?He has attributed his own lying inventions to God?? But then, had

God so willed, He could have sealed thy heart for God blots out all falsehood, and by His

words proves the truth to be true. Verily, He has full knowledge of what is in the hearts

(understandings);

6112
Thus have We appointed unto every prophet an adversary - devils of humankind and jinn

who inspire in one another plausible discourse through guile. If thy Lord had not willed

it, they would not have do so; so leave them alone with their devising;

6107
Yet if God had not so willed, they would not have ascribed divinity to aught beside Him;

hence, We have not made thee their keeper, and neither art thou responsible for their

conduct.

11118
And if your Lord willed surely He would have made the mankind one community (but Allah did

not will this, but willed that they differ), but not will they cease to differ (because Allah

is willing it to be so, nothing happens which is not Allah's will).

635
And if their aversion is grievous unto thee, then, if thou canst, seek a way down into the

earth or a ladder unto the sky that thou mayst bring unto them a portent! - If Allah willed,

He could have brought them all together to the guidance - So be not thou among the foolish

ones.

1693
If God willed, He would have made you one community, but He causes to go astray whom He

wills and guides whom He wills. And, certainly, you will be asked about what you had been

doing.

3212
And if you (could) see when the criminals (will) hang their heads before their Lord, "Our

Lord we have seen and we have heard, so return us, we will do righteous (deeds). Indeed, we

(are now) certain."

3213
And if We willed, surely We have given every soul its guidance, but true the Word from Me

that " Hell with the jinn and the men together.

3215
ONLY THEY believe in Our messages who, whenever they are conveyed to them, fall down, prostrating themselves in adoration, and extol their Sustainer?s limitless glory and praise; and who are never filled with false pride;

Haha I read this and I ran to say my prayers.

1736
And never concern thyself with anything of which thou hast no knowledge verily, hearing and sight and heart - all of them - will be called to account for it !

986
Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

God created fish for the sea, God created some creations as for "hell".

7179
And certainly We have created for Hell many of the jinn and men. For them (are) hearts (but) not they understand with them, and for them (are) eyes (but) not they see with them, and for them (are) ears (but) not they hear with them. Those (are) like cattle, nay they (are) more astray. Those - they (are) the (ones you see who are) heedless.

7180
And for Allah (are) the names - the most beautiful, so invoke Him by them. And leave those who deviate concerning His names. They will be recompensed for what they used to do.

7181
And of (those) whom We have created (is) a nation, who guides with the truth and thereby they establish justice.

God created the hell beings, and the justice nation.

2868
Thy Lord bringeth to pass what He willeth and chooseth. They have never any choice. Glorified be Allah and Exalted above all that they associate (with Him)!

5722
No evil befalls on the earth nor in your own souls, but it is in a book before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to Allah

Allah misleads, gives the "affliction" and the "disease" in the understandings, created some for hell who are the ones not allowed to hear or see or understand.

Now please understand, when a person says "but that is unjust!" they are not understanding that God is the inventor of Justice, its a concept which God has put into reality, its not something ruling over God, its just a thing God created, and God created everything, everything means your thoughts, your actions, your experiences, the whole shabang. Not just "some things".

478
Wherever you be will overtake you death even if you are in towers lofty. And if befalls them any good they say, "This (is) from Allah," And if befalls them any evil they say, "This (is) from yourselves." Say, "All (is) from Allah." So what (is wrong) (with) these people, they do not seem (to) understand any statement.

ALL IS FROM ALLAH, even the EVIL FROM YOURSELVES. ALL MEANS ALL, EVERYTHING MEANS EVERYTHING, not just "some things", there is no other creating any of this information or causing it. We're talking about the Ultimate.

Right after that it repeats it, to say "All is from God, the good from God (is from God), the evil from yourselves (is from God).

Numerous people only look at that verse and confuse themselves and go even so far as to deny the statement just prior to it or ignore it when the whole topic is about how foolish people say that good is from God but evil is from yourselves, then even says how people don't understand the statement.

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And that He it is who maketh laugh, and maketh weep,

control over everything

1239
"O my companions in imprisonment! Which is more reasonable lords, each of them different from the other" -or the One God, who holds absolute sway over all that exists?

1448
on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens and when shall appear before God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists.

614 Am I to take for my master anyone but God, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, who gives nourishment to d Himself needs none? Say I am commanded to be the first of those who surrender themselves to God, and not to be those who associate partners with Him.
615 Indeed I would dread, were I to disobey my Lord, the suffering of an awesome day.
616 Who is spared that shall have received His grace. This will be a manifest triumph.
617 d were to expose you to affliction, none can remove it but He. And if He were to bless you with good fortune — well, s power over all things.
618 he holds sway over all His creatures, and He alone is truly wise, all-aware.
619 What is weightiest in testimony? Say God is witness between me and you. This Qur&#039??n has been revealed to me that thereby warn you and all whom it may reach. Will you in truth bear witness that there are other deities beside God? bear no such witness. Say He is but one God. I disown all that you associate with Him.

az-Zumar 394
He is the One God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists!

3796
"But Allah has created you and your handwork!"

Your handiwork even, there is no power but Allah.

This is why Allah's names are not "the most" but THE absolute. Meaning, when Allah says THE MERCIFUL or THE COMPASSIONATE, those are literal linguistically logical FACTS, it is not saying "out of all the merciful people, Allah is the most merciful" it is saying WHAT YOU KNOW OF MERCY, THAT IS FROM ALLAH. That Allah is LITERALLY the definition of Compassionate, because Allah has the information and created it, the information we are experiencing God creates it and has full access to it every moment. That is not an ability we have, we can never truly be "compassionate" by definition, we can not experience what another is experiencing exactly as they are experiencing it or encompassing that information. Do you see? These names are Absolute. It is not us who defines it. God is the one who creates a concept in our existence, can change it, can change our entire reality or experience in a second, the information we are experiencing can easily be changed to anything else, and there would be no way to know if it has been changed or not except if Allah informs the individual, and it HAS been changed, every moment, you were not sitting in the same exact position looking at the same exact thing "a moment ago" that is not even in existence now "as it was" and Allah is the Creator and the Destroyer.

Hopefully I've answered your questions and this has given you clarity, where now you'll see your questions and maybe see how silly they seem in retrospect (this is my hope, but if they still seem wise to you after what you've been shown, then I'll try to explain more anyway).

"Why does God say that he is the most beneficent the most merciful, if everything that we do

is what he actually dictates and we have no say in it one way or the other."

Because the concept of "mercy" "beneficence" and all those things are invented by God, they can be changed too just as freely, but God is literally the ONLY one doing any of those things as well. So even if we are to take the names as those translations without going into detail about the Arabic etymologies, even in the sense of "charity" is GOD ALONE that gives in charity ultimately, the names are ABSOLUTE. I have nothing to give, the giving is from God, and what I get is from God too. Do you see?

"There can be no mercy without a wrongdoing and there can be no wrongdoing without some level of free will."

Allah created a concept called "wrongdoing" it too is a creation of God, as well as all the other things, but there is no case in which "it is not God doing it, but Chance determines rather than God, or WE determine rather than God, therefor Chance determines because it can go this way or that way". These are creations of God, God can make a court room, a judge, criminals, crimes, judgment, punishment. These are not concepts which rule over God, they are inventions of God that God creates freely. God is not "caused" to do anything, God is not "condition based", God is the ruler, the cause, the creator of EVERYTHING, not just some things, not that some things God has created but what you will is not what God has created, or what you think is not what God has created, but that "God created them sure, but then Chance determines what I think or Chance determines what I do" this is association that is implied without realizing it, and the Qur'an frankly speaks out against such repeatedly in so many ways.

"By accepting your view, one would have to conclude that the people who commit crimes

throughout their lives and die without ever being caught or convicted, will have no

retribution for their actions, either in this world or the hereafter."

No. That is a misunderstanding and total misrepresentation of what is being said here. God can make anything a crime and can make anyone suffer, for no reason or any reason. It is total control, it is not that the concept of Justice is over God, it is that the concept of Justice is under God who can make it anything. If God makes a narrative that is "such and such were done, they are called crimes, such and such suffers, it is called punishment", that is what will Be.

"Because how can there be a hell created for the wicked if the wicked are no more than puppets without any will of their own."

God can create "evildoers" just like a person can write a book with characters and some are villains and some are heroes. Even the "book" analogy and concept is used throughout the Qur'an and the idea that these are all the "words" of God in action. You need to lift the mindset to the Ultimate level, not the menial microcosm. Yes, in the microcosm of what is apparent to us, we choose, we act, we fight, we love, we do whatever. On the Ultimate level, it is God "speaking" "Be" for everything that exists, EVERYTHING.

"Allah (SWT) is the most Just, and burning people in hell with no fault of their

own would not be justice."

Again, you are saying that God is confined to what you are made to deem as "Just". That Justice has a gun to God and is the "reason" or "cause" which dictates to God what to do. Such a God is nothing but a fantasy, and whatever is ULTIMATE is being neglected in such a concept. No, God is not confined by anything above or restrained as in a funnel by any "system" below. God is LITERALLY the JUSTICE or the JUDGMENT, which God can freely change or do anything. Meaning whatever God judges, that is what it will be, not the other way around "Justice dictates to God" no "God dictates justice and IS whatever Justice occurs". People are thinking backwards, they are thinking in reverse, they have a concept of what is right and wrong, and what displeases them, they think that God is bound like they are, it is not so. They apparently used to say "God's hand is fettered" and among many things this can also mean "God is restrained" by concepts even such as "Love" "Justice" and whatever else, which were the literal names of the idols people used to worship and make partners with God, they literally were concepts they would name as partners to God like Asherah meant Righteousness and was said to be the "Consort of God" meaning "God is partnered with Righteousness" but it was a blasphemy, God has no partners, no one dictates to God what is good or bad, good and bad are just made up concepts by God, they can be switched into anything. God has the absolute power, that is why God is to be feared absolutely.

""And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter for we have turned

unto Thee." He said "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all

things.That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and

those who believe in Our signs;- (Surah Al-A?raf, 156)"

Yes, that is totally saying the same thing "My punishment, whom I will", if God wants to give it to those creations God has made charitable, then that is who it is will go to

2421
O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Do you think the charity comes from you? That it is you who decides to be good ultimately, when Allah says you can not even WILL IT except whatever Allah WILLS YOU TO WILL. NO MERIT, NO CREDIT goes to you, you are just a creation, if God has honored you, it is GOD doing all of that. The ones Allah has created arrogant truly are the ones who say it is by their own power and strength that they do good or bad, just like Pharoah was arrogant. Not at all. Allah chooses and creates and decides and every STEP of your life, good or bad, is from Allah.

7182 And (as to) those who reject Our communications, We draw them near (to destruction) by degrees from whence they know not.
7183 Respite will I grant unto them for My scheme is strong (and unfailing).
7184 Have they not reflected? Their companion is not mad. He is only a clear warner.

6125
And whomsoever God wills to guide, his bosom He opens wide with willingness towards self-surrender ; and whomsoever He wills to let go astray, his bosom He causes to be tight and constricted, as if he were climbing unto the skies it is thus that God inflicts horror upon those who will not believe.

Don't kid yourself. It is God who creates the child with deformities, God who makes the cockroaches to lose a limb and have to struggle and crawl. God does all of this. It has nothing at all to do with human concepts of "Justice", you're dealing with THE POWER, far beyond any such things, Subhan'Allah. Or is it that God doesn't determine the deaths of things, so that when a person murders their child, it was not God who created that and not God who determined the mode of death?

BLESSED BE THE KING! LOOK AT THIS

3154
Then, after this woe, He sent down upon you a sense of security, an inner calm which enfolded some of you, whereas the others, who cared mainly for themselves, entertained wrong thoughts about God - thoughts of pagan ignorance - saying, "Did we, then, have any power of decision?" Say "Verily, all power of decision does rest with God" - they are trying to conceal within themselves that which they would not reveal unto thee, saying, "If we had any power of decision, we would not have left so many dead behind." Say "Even if you had remained in your homes, those whose death had been ordained would indeed have gone forth to the places where they were destined to lie down." And so that God might make manifest all that you harbour in your bosoms, and render your innermost hearts pure of all dross for God is aware of what is in the hearts .

So, basically it is saying exactly what all these harbourers of shirk on this website say and think too, and the answers are given clearly. THE DECISION IS ALLAH'S DECISION, YOU HAVE NO POWER REALLY EVEN THOUGH OF COURSE IT APPEARS YOU CHOOSE AND DECIDE THINGS, AND EVERY ASPECT OF YOUR LIFE AND YOUR DEATH FROM THE LAUGHING AND THE CRYING AND THE THOUGHTS AND THE DISEASED UNDERSTANDING OR GUIDANCE AND THE DEATH OF CHILDREN AND MURDER AND RAPE AND EVERYTHING IS THE CREATION AND DECISION OF ALLAH. That doesn't mean its all good, it means ALLAH IS THE ONLY POWER, WE SURRENDER, WE SURRENDER, WE SURRENDER.

4917
Many people think that they have bestowed a favour upon thee by having surrendered . Say thou ?Deem not your surrender a favour unto me nay, but it is God who bestows a favour upon you by guiding you to the faith - if you are true to your word!?

8129
And not you will except that wills Allah, Lord (of) the worlds.

"How can people believe in signs when it is only God (according to you) controlling all

aspects of what they believe and who they believe."

"How can people believe" uh? Quite simple, either Allah makes them believe it, or Allah does not make them believe it.

According to me?

al-Ahzab 3327
And God has power over all things. zoom. Dr. Laleh ... Allah has Supreme Control over all things, and all events take place according to His Laws. (2455). zoom.
www.islamawakened.com/quran/33/27/
al-Baqarah 2148
For Allah Hath power over all things. zoom ? Yusuf Ali (Orig ... This Proclamation comes from Allah who has Power and Control over all things in Time and Space.
www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/148/
an-Nisa 485 And God has control over all things. zoom ? Abdel Haleem, Whoever speaks for a good cause will share in its benefits and whoever speaks for a bad cause will ... islamawakened.com/quran/4/85/ al-Mulk 671 1985), Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath ... T.B.Irving, Blessed is He in Whose hands there rests control; He is Capable of ... islamawakened.com/quran/67/1/ al-Imran 326 ... Thy hand is all good. Verily, over all things Thou hast power. zoom ... You give control to anyone You wish and snatch control from anyone You wish. You exalt ... islamawakened.com/quran/3/26/ Ya Sin 3683 1985), So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things and to Him will ye ... Wahiduddin Khan, So glory be to Him who has control over all things. islamawakened.com/quran/36/83/ al-Baqarah 2106 Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? zoom .... Do you not know that God has control over everything ? islamawakened.com/quran/2/106/ al-Maidah 5120
T.B.Irving, God holds control over Heaven and Earth, as well as whatever lies within them ... He has Power over all things and events, and He has appointed due ...
islamawakened.com/quran/5/120/
al-Imran 329
Allah has power (and complete control) over all things!" zoom ? Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, Say 'Whether you hide what is in your breasts or make it known, ...
islamawakened.com/quran/3/29/
al-Kahf 1845
... the winds. And Allah over every thing (is) All Able. zoom .... Allah is Competent and all events take place according to His Laws over which He has full control.
islamawakened.com/quran/18/45/

Quran 641
He has power over all things. zoom. T.B.Irving, Whatever is in Heaven and whatever is on Earth celebrates God. Control is His and praise is (also) His.
islamawakened.com/quran/64/1/
al-Baqarah 220
Behold, Allah is the All-Powerful Designer of His Laws and He has Supreme Control over all things. ((2201), (7183), (1115), (1718-21), (2954), (3024), ...
islamawakened.com/quran/2/20/
az-Zumar 3962
M. M. Pickthall, Allah is Creator of all things, and He is Guardian over all things. zoom ? Shakir, Allah is the Creator of every thing and He has charge over every ...
islamawakened.com/quran/39/62/
al-Hajj 226
Shabbir Ahmed, All this happens because Allah alone is the Ultimate Truth and He alone revives the dead and because He has Supreme Control over all things ...
islamawakened.com/quran/22/6/
ash-Shura 4212
The Sustenance to whom He will for He knows full well all things. zoom ... , To Him is attributed the authority and control over the known and the ...
islamawakened.com/quran/42/12/
an-Nur 2445
Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things. zoom ... He has Supreme control over all things and events and verily, Allah is the Appointer ...
islamawakened.com/quran/24/45/
an-Nahl 1677
... of an eye, or swifter. Indeed Allah has power over all things. zoom ... Surely, Allah has mighty control over everything. zoom. Dr. Kamal Omar, And to ...
islamawakened.com/quran/16/77/
al-Mulk (The Sovereignty, Control, The Kingdom) as rendered by ...
Shakir rendition of Surah The Sovereignty, Control, The Kingdom(al-Mulk) --- ... Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things,.
www.islamawakened.com/quran/67/st26.htm
an-Nisa` (Women) as rendered by Muhammad Sarwar
God certainly keeps watch over you. ... After the payment of debts and things bequeathed have been excluded from the ..... God has control over all things.
islamawakened.com/quran/4/st23.htm
an-Nur 2442
T.B.Irving, God holds control over Heaven and Earth; towards God lies the ... the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and to Him do all things return. zoom.

al-Maidah 517 Say Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the ... He creates what He will and God has power over all things. zoom. islamawakened.com/quran/5/17/ al-Anam 6102
There is no Allah save Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He ... And He is caretaker over all things. zoom .... He is in control of all things. zoom.

al-Maidah 519 And Allah hath power over all things. zoom .... Allah has Power over all things and events. zoom ... Indeed God has power (and control) over everything. zoom. islamawakened.com/quran/5/19/ ar-Rad 132
Then He established his control over the realm and made the sun and moon ... He controls all things, explaining (to you) the Signs in detail, so that you may ...
islamawakened.com/quran/13/2/
an-Nahl (The Bee) as rendered by Aisha Bewley
Your Lord is All-Gentle, Most Merciful. .... 1673, And worship, instead of Allah, things that have no control over their provision ... Allah has power over all things.
islamawakened.com/quran/16/st6.htm
Yusuf 1221
And Allah hath full power and control over His affairs; but most among mankind know it not. zoom ? Yusuf Ali (Orig. ... God has power over all things. However ...
islamawakened.com/quran/12/21/

al-Baqarah 2247
Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things." zoom ... They said "How could he hold control over us, since we are fitter to exercise control than he is? He has ...

al-A`raf 7188
If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil ... , Say to them O Muhammad "I have no control over what will ... what is hidden, I would have abundant good things and no harm could touch me.
islamawakened.com/quran/7/188/

4313
So that when you sit astride of them and think of the bounties of your Lord, you may say "All glory to Him who subjugated these for us. We were incapable of doing so.

al-Imran 3120
God has control over all their actions.

al-Hajj 2241
The consequence of all things is in the hands of God.

Fatir 3513
Such is God your Lord all control belongs to Him.

ALL CONTROL, not "some control".

Yunus 1024
Thus We spell out signs for folk who will think things over. zoom .... whom it belongs think they have all the control over it

az-Zumar 396
Thus is God, your Sustainer unto Him belongs all dominion there is no deity save Him how, then, can you lose sight of the truth? zoom ... Control belongs to Him; there is no god except for Him. Yet you ..... His is the sovereignty over all things.

Quran 2264
Do not deprive your charitable deeds of all worth by stressing your own .... They have no power (control) over what they have earned.

al-Anbiya` 2122
Much too glorious is God, the Lord of the mighty throne, for things they assert! zoom ... Glorified is Allah, the Lord of Supreme Control, above all that they contrive.

al-Mumtahinah 604
... ?I?ll seek forgiveness for you, even though I do not control anything at all with God

Look how to pray

2719
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee And admit me, by Th y Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."

The prayers are from Allah. We ask that Allah makes us good people, grateful, if Allah doesn't do it, we won't do it, and even such a prayer coming to our mind is from Allah, just like the bad things or "evil that befalls you in yourselves" is from Allah too. This is why Allah is to be dreaded utterly, but the Fear of Allah will not come to anyone except as Allah wills.

So again, on the microcosm level, yes it appears we have a choice and should choose to do good and be righteous. On the Ultimate level, if you were good or bad, that is God writing it all down, and making manifest whatever Allah wants to create or make Be. Simple as that.

Now you either come to 100% or get every tooth of shirk knocked out of you by Allah, if Allah is so gracious to you even to do that much. Some learn the hard way, some learn the easy way, and some never learn at all! God creates whatever God wills, the good, the bad, and the ugly!

""O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the

cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the

Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah

At-Tawba, 3""

"What is the matter with you" would lead the wise to ponder, then they look at the Qur'an or they look at Science, and both them say the same thing, Allah is why they do whatever they do, Allah alone. In Science it is the apparent "chain of causation", whereas in the Qur'an it is the direct will and creation of God whatever happens or exists, a calamity in them or not, the answer is always the same, by whatever name you call it, it is Allah who is doing it, Allah is not less than Chance, Allah is our only Chance.

"How could Allah (SWT) ask this of mankind if when the going forth and not going forth is both directly controlled by Allah and not by the man whom this is being addressed to."

Allah can do whatever Allah wants to do or write whatever Allah wants to write. Can ask a question, and animate the answer, good or bad. This is not a problem.

"How could" is a funny question, because the answers are evident, they are reality itself. Allah is unconditional, unconditioned, is not being DRIVEN like a COW by conditions that demand of Allah to do this or do that. When people say "Why" the answer is always the same "Allah is the Ultimate Power, Unconditioned and Unconditional, Unlimited, the Limitless, who creates whatever at all Allah wills based on nothing ELSE (not SHIRK), but freely, as there is no other driving factor or "causer" upon God, but Allah alone is the Ultimate Cause and Causer Always, or else what is being spoken of is NOT THE ULTIMATE, and I only worship the ULTIMATE whatever name you might call it".

Questions, Answers, Walking, Sitting, Laughing, Crying, Will, Slavery, Murder, Piss, Slaughter, Blood, Every word you speak, Every thought you think, these are all CREATIONS they are what God CREATES, it is not left to "Chance" and there is no DETERMINER but GOD ALONE.

ALL IS FROM GOD, not "some is from God". ALL MEANS ALL, EVERYTHING MEANS EVERYTHING. "Things" these are all "things" all "things" are created by Allah, that doesn't mean only physical objects once long ago. It means EXPERIENCES, that is all you have access to. INFORMATION, that is all you experience. You do not have access to the "objects as they are", you only have access to current "information" or "experience" what your senses are perceiving, and what your senses are perceiving is INFORMATION, it is being created by Allah, it is not you creating it, nor is it "just there", if Allah stops creating information for you, you will be dead, and Allah is not information or made of information or relying on information, information relies on God who is actively creating it and destroying it.

So are we at 99.9 now or 100%? If you have any problems, lets see if we can wash out of you the last bits of shirk. It will never happen though, if God does not will it to happen.

Man_of_Faith

Freedomstands,

When you fabricate a language on top of another it is not authentic but rather a delusion for those who hearken unto it.

OnlyOneGod

Firstly, the "free will" issue changes nothing. "What happens happens", so it is practically

irrelevent entirely. What you know as "free will" and the experience which you are referring

to, is not being denied here at all. You certainly experience "choice" and "make decisions"

and whatever else, those are real experiences, I experience that too of course.

The question is about making the claim that "Chance" is the determining power, and "God

leaves it to Chance, God doesn't know, God doesn't control".

Ok well I DO believe that God is the determining power but I also believe that man has free will over his own choices in life. In your post here you seem to agree with that concept of choice which I felt was missing from your posting in
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607626.0

There you say that even the good and the bad that a person does is not through his own choice but it is simply God doing it. And I quote you

"All things means all things, from your thoughts, to your actions, to even your "will" and desires, all of it is "information" and God is the creator of it actively, all of it, we are completely helpless before God and in a state of surrender, willingly or unwillingly, and that is just the fact of the situation and the reality of life. That doesn't mean we just drop down and die, but we realize that whatever we do, good or bad, is God doing it, even the prayers we utter from our mouth or our curses, and whether it is good for us later or not, is also God, and if God harms anyone or benefits anyone, that is God's will which is entirely Free, the only "Free Will""

"Even in that sense though, "God created everything" "God creates everything", meaning that even the disbelief, the lies, the moral wickedness people think of and the performance, all of it are the creations of Allah specifically as they occur in every detail. So if "Jack rapes Jane" the specific way in which that rape occurs, Jack's intention to do it, all his thoughts, Jane's suffering, and Jack's immorality and "evilness" is all the creation of Allah and it was also God who made it so, if God had not willed it, Jane never would have been raped, nor would Jack have ever thought of it. Jack has no power on his own, nor does Jane have any power to prevent the calamity or disaster or evilness of being raped by Jack. The rape of Jane was the will of God, and the will of God was thus that Jack does evil, and that Jane suffers evil, and every element of that experience both of them had in whatever ways they had it is "information" which Allah created, there simply is not other creator of information or concepts or anything. We hope that God will do whatever is most pleasant, but God does whatever God wills."

What you say above would make anyone believe that you think that man has no 'self control' because all control in a human beings actions in life is in the hands of God. So thereby it is not man doing it, or Jack, as in your example above. So Jack is not responsible for his actions if he has no free will to determine it one way or another.

I believe that man DOES have choices in life (when given the choice) to do the right thing or the wrong thing. What I do not believe is that those actions themselves, or the man himself, determine his future trajectory in life. Meaning that, mans actions do not control his future, it is only God who determines it. It is not that God has left things to chance, because he hasn't, it is only Gods will and power that may guide a mans life in whatever direction he may choose. Man has no power over the direction, because that is the unseen, but man does have power over his body and his decisions in the present. That for me is free-will Granted to us from God.

"The prayers are from Allah. We ask that Allah makes us good people, grateful, if Allah doesn't do it, we won't do it, and even such a prayer coming to our mind is from Allah, just like the bad things or "evil that befalls you in yourselves" is from Allah too. This is why Allah is to be dreaded utterly, but the Fear of Allah will not come to anyone except as Allah wills."

I accept the point where you say that "We ask that Allah makes us good people, grateful, if Allah doesn't do it, we won't do it" but what I don't accept is when you contradict your own statement by saying "and even such a prayer coming to our mind is from Allah, just like the bad things or "evil that befalls you in yourselves" is from Allah too". If you think that our thoughts are not in our control then I feel that you do not accept the verses where God says in the Quran that he will Judge people for their actions and decisions in life. Even Adam and Eve were judged for their actions and so was iblis. Now that of course doesn't mean that God did not know that they may do such a thing, or that he did not have the power to stop it, but to say that God would not Allow such a thing to happen is, in my mind, trying to impose your own restrictions on Gods free will.

God may allow anything he wants. God has the power of the unseen where we do not. Is this not what even the Angels questioned God on? And God says to them that I know what you do not (so basically a shut up call to them). So allowing people to make decisions is absolutely his sole prerogative. But how those decisions impact the future of Gods creation is not within the control of the creation itself, but only within Gods control. It is not about chance then, it is about Gods control over our lives, but mans free will also plays its part, otherwise, no judgement and no justice for mankind.

"Allah can do whatever Allah wants to do or write whatever Allah wants to write. Can ask a question, and animate the answer, good or bad. This is not a problem."

When you believe that Allah can do what he wants to do then you must also accept that he can choose to give man free will to choose when faced with the decision between right and wrong. When you say that Allah can write what he wants to write, are you saying that the message of the Quran is of no value if man has no control over whether he does good or bad in life?

"Questions, Answers, Walking, Sitting, Laughing, Crying, Will, Slavery, Murder, Piss, Slaughter, Blood, Every word you speak, Every thought you think, these are all CREATIONS they are what God CREATES, it is not left to "Chance" and there is no DETERMINER but GOD ALONE."

I agree that all things whether we call them "good" or "bad" are all creations of the one mighty God. But I think that we have simply been told to choose between the two.

OnlyOneGod