CAN ALLAH BE EVERYWHERE
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No free will whatsoever except in appearance.
Now the people will fully misunderstand, and that is the usual case, so what.
The human has no part in what they are, what they see, what occurs to them, it is all
the creation of Allah and decisions of Allah, and that is it. If Allah creates a fish for the
sea, so be it, if Allah creates an individual as an evildoer, a doer of evil, and throws
them in hell too, that is all Allah, All is from God, Allah creates and chooses whatever."Information" is synonymous in my usage with "Creation" and so is "What you experience",
what you are experiencing, what you are seeing, hearing, thinking, etc.Common language is better to use to avoid misunderstanding,
so if information is the same as creation why not use creation?Aaahh finally, so you believe there is no free will, it took us awhile but we finally got there!
Post # 216 your analysis?
God bless you
peace
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Common language is better to use to avoid misunderstanding,
so if information is the same as creation why not use creation?Aaahh finally, so you believe there is no free will, it took us awhile but we finally got there! )
Post # 216 your analysis?
God bless you
peace
I read it. It is saying that people have a choice which God does not determine. God creates the basis, and the humans make the choices, thus it relies on "chance" since it can go this way or that way and "chance" determines and not God. So be it. As I have said before, I worship whatever is Ultimate, the Determiner. So if that is "Chance", then I worship Chance, not "God" who is not the determiner. Such a "God" is nothing but filth in my view.
Now if you could be so kind as to read these posts thoroughly, regarding my Lord, Chance
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607697.0
I don't worship Justice or Love, creations of God.
I use the word "information" because I am trying to instigate the people to realize that what they experience and see is just that. If I say "creation", people tend to think of objects, rather than the experience of objects being their own particular objects or units of information.
In other words, what your eyes see is not the bottle itself, it is information about the bottle that you experience.
Whatever you choose, according to scientific thinking, is determined by causal factors in a chain of causation.
Whatever you choose, according to ancient theological thinking in many cases at least, is determined by the Ultimate cause that creates everything, all your experiences which is why God is known as Qadirun and Jabar among other things.
If you would read those linked articles you would see how many quotes there are and this was a common idea. Only with Western Theology has omnibenevolence and "Free Will" obsession become prevalent and invaded Islam too, they don't realize the shirk involved and think it is harmless and think it is impiety to say God is the cause and determiner of everything, disregarding logic, common sense, the Qur'an, the other scriptures, even scientific stuff.
That doesn't mean you don't experience a sense of "volition" or "choice", that is part of what Allah is making you experience at the time and creating, it is not a system just left there and people are little gods willing this or that and God is running after them. Those quotes I've showed should make it clear to anyone who doesn't harbor shirk privately in their hearts that there is no way around this matter.
It is the big test and the "sorting" of who is who.
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The Grand Test is getting to know who you are.
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The Grand Test is getting to know who you are.
Yes
And as you start getting a better idea of who you are, that is, as you start dis-identifying yourself, your identity, will all mundane, material and external things in life, there will be an ever reduced need to defend your emotional ego and thus an ever decreasing need for war, racism, prejudice, nationalism and the like.
No wonder why it is the grand test. All problems in this world stems from us not knowing who and what we are. We have literally invented (or bought into) a fairly tale about ourselves and the world, and are ready to defend our version of this fairy tale with murder and lies.
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Splendid, Zulf. You know about the Kingdom. Such wisdom you built up.
When we know ourselves, we see that the body is a distraction with its whims and desires which God has no need for and it was meant as a delusion and a contradiction.
Merely testing the model of abstention will make one gradually realize this. Reform towards perfection. But also know that God is empathic and not a robot so everyone is also supposed to be humane, which is clear in the prophetic revelations.
I suggest people to try to entirely cut off sugar, coffee, tea and other drugs for a while and see the biological effect. The Spirit will feel better outwards. And try working on material desires, if someone asked for 100, give them 200, etc according to such model. If you are generous, then God will provide you for your loss if you only have faith.
Additionally, do not be angry/emotional. Control those feelings. Find the root in yourself that makes you angry and solve it. Your Foundation (God) will punish for any injustice incurred. If a "lifeless" person is bothering, seek patience against this, try to understand their ignorance and pity them. God will test you by intentionally sending things your way that may make you annoyed. Do not falter.
And remember it all comes down to the ego and what you like to defend, as you said.
Be well brother
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Splendid, Zulf. You know about the Kingdom. Such wisdom you built up.
When we know ourselves, we see that the body is a distraction with its whims and desires which God has no need for and it was meant as a delusion and a contradiction.
Merely testing the model of abstention will make one gradually realize this. Reform towards perfection. But also know that God is empathic and not a robot so everyone is also supposed to be humane, which is clear in the prophetic revelations.
I suggest people to try to entirely cut off sugar, coffee, tea and other drugs for a while and see the biological effect. The Spirit will feel better outwards. And try working on material desires, if someone asked for 100, give them 200, etc according to such model. If you are generous, then God will provide you for your loss if you only have faith.
Additionally, do not be angry/emotional. Control those feelings. Find the root in yourself that makes you angry and solve it. Your Foundation (God) will punish for any injustice incurred. If a "lifeless" person is bothering, seek patience against this, try to understand their ignorance and pity them. God will test you by intentionally sending things your way that may make you annoyed. Do not falter.
And remember it all comes down to the ego and what you like to defend, as you said.
Be well brother
Very good, both of you, and this post has all good stuff. Keep at speaking these sorts of things, they are very nice to see and hear.
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Zulf, I like reading your posts. Very wise and thoughtful )
Peace.
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I suggest people to try to entirely cut off sugar, coffee, tea and other drugs for a while and see the biological effect. The Spirit will feel better outwards. And try working on material desires, if someone asked for 100, give them 200, etc according to such model. If you are generous, then God will provide you for your loss if you only have faith.
This was my narrow experience. After I quit drugs I felt so depressed. I saw on one of the video, if our "reward" brain circuit kept activated, the "reward" receptor will conceal it self and reject stimulus. I think I understand what was happened to me. Normally, I should be given an anti-depressant, but since our culture not accepting such a thing, the medicine was stopped, and I felt like my life was missery. Its true. I still can say about good things about God, but deep inside, I complaining about how bad my life is. Each time I had good news, like salary increased, accepted in a prestige company, it doesnot give me any pleasure, I kept thinking that my life was misserable, and if I had problems, Im very depressed.
Our religious culture controlling everything, what you said, what you thought, everything, you're not allowed to complain, you're not allowed tell anything, and you have to make an impression everything was okay, so the story like me will never be known. But you have to know, beeing forced to quit drugs without any solution is hard, we're suffering here, or I am.
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Getting to the root of the problem is very important, Farabi. Depressions have a cause. One has also to be strong-willed.
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Getting to the root of the problem is very important, Farabi. Depressions have a cause. One has also to be strong-willed.
I should not say this but yes, I found the root, I need liquor ;D. I dont know, either I need liquor or I need to stop reading King David story.
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It is unfortunate that a good fighter like you would have this stain remaining but maybe it will be cleansed soon. Thank you for bringing up the points. Mislead is just the limitations of language, and yes "misleading" is a form of experience, people can see it, it is when one says to another something which is wrong and then it appears based on that they go down the wrong path, if such occurs the entire incident was Allah's doing.
You may want to read my battle with drfazl, since it goes through it multiple times
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg373332#msg373332
Saying "God does not rely on chance" does not mean anything if the implications of what is being said is "God relies on chance". If anyone says "it can go this way or that way, people have a choice of two possibilities and what they choose is not determined by God" then they are saying "since it can go this way or that way, it is left to chance", it has nothing to do with "pre-determined coordinates for each path and limited choice", it is simply the implications of what is being said. This somehow is very difficult for people to comprehend, because they genuinely say "God does not rely on chance" and follow it up with statements which translate to God relying on chance as the determiner. I know it is a hard thing to swallow or realize. For me, it is no problem to swallow or realize that God is the source of evil and everything absolutely whatever at all. The Qur'an is also quite explicit about it repeatedly, it is only the sense of piety in people perhaps that makes them go down the path of shirk to "spare God" what appears indecent to say, that God is the Supreme Evil, as its creator and dispenser, everything else is under the driving charge of God.
No, the "only way" is not "free will" because there can be "A man goes up to a woman and says to her there is a bridge on 5th street, and she experiences belief of this and goes to 5th street and finds no bridge, realizing she was misled" and all that written by and created by God. That is an "experience" of information, it has nothing to do with free will at all. On the immediate level I am not denying the appearance of choices, but the appearance of choices and what you do actually choose and how you choose it and every sequence of thoughts and every decision you make is all Allah doing it truly, you are nothing really in the story, just whatever Allah wills will be demonstrated and you will be made to know what Allah has created of you.
"Never any choice had they".
So don't be in love with the Satanic Western fallacies of "omnibenevolence" which leads to absolutely twisted thinking and justifications, or their other invention of "Free Will".
That is not to say that in your life you won't be faced with choices, and whatever you end up choosing it is actually Allah choosing for you, and that does not mean it is necessarily good for you either, Allah may intend you harm.
So nothing at all changes in your experience, it is just you acknowledge it is God's will, all things, everything is God's will, not "some things" or "passive will" or anything like that. or "I make the choice, I determine which pre-determined path" or any variety.
Cleanse the shirk, become like me, and you'll prosper, simple as that. You can choose to do so in the immediate level, in truth, you'll never be able to do it except only if God makes you do it.
"Saying "God does not rely on chance" does not mean anything if the implications of what is being said is "God relies on chance"."
How is God relying on "chance" if the actual direction of a persons life is determined by God and not by mans decisions?
"If anyone says "it can go this way or that way, people have a choice of two possibilities and what they choose is not determined by God" "
You are misunderstanding me ... In my example a man is confronted with a choice to either steal millions or not steal millions ... he chooses to steal millions thinking that his decision will guide the next trajectory of his life. THAT point of decision making (I believe) has been given to a mans own discretion. If you say that God cannot allow a man to decide, then you think that Gods abilities have limits. God may give and he may take whatever he wants.
Now ... If that mans future was determined on the actions that this man took, then he may well become a millionaire and live a great life. But whether he lives the life of a millionaire or is caught by the authorities and spends his life in jail is all dependent on God. The only thing this man could have control over was his decision at that 'point in time'. He does not control its outcome.
""Never any choice had they".
Please quote the verse and we can discuss.
"That is not to say that in your life you won't be faced with choices, and whatever you end up choosing it is actually Allah choosing for you, and that does not mean it is necessarily good for you either, Allah may intend you harm."
So you want to give a free pass to all the murderers and the rapists of this world. As per you, if someone slaughters a family, we should let them walk free, because .... hey, its not you doing it, its actually God, so no worries.
Why blame anyone for anything that they do in their life? Lets all demolish the Jails, and let all these men of God walk free to do as Allah wills. Quite the paradise on earth you want to create here.
If that is really what you believe in your life then I sincerely think that you need to re-examine your beliefs.
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I read it. It is saying that people have a choice which God does not determine. God creates the basis, and the humans make the choices, thus it relies on "chance" since it can go this way or that way and "chance" determines and not God. So be it.
Peace FreedomStands, Please give ayats about "chance" from Quran.
Could you give your opinion of these ayats regarding
free will or lack thereof.1829 ?Say ?The truth is from your Lord.? Let him who will, believe, and
let him who will, reject (it).?4115 ?If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been
plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than what becoming of men
Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,
what an evil refuge!?And finally
1311 ?Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change
it themselves.?It is obvious as per Quran that Allah's will and human will are not contradictory
because our intentions works with Allah's will.God bless
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""Never any choice had they".
Please quote the verse and we can discuss.
"That is not to say that in your life you won't be faced with choices, and whatever you end up choosing it is actually Allah choosing for you, and that does not mean it is necessarily good for you either, Allah may intend you harm."
So you want to give a free pass to all the murderers and the rapists of this world. As per you, if someone slaughters a family, we should let them walk free, because .... hey, its not you doing it, its actually God, so no worries.
Why blame anyone for anything that they do in their life? Lets all demolish the Jails, and let all these men of God walk free to do as Allah wills. Quite the paradise on earth you want to create here.
If that is really what you believe in your life then I sincerely think that you need to re-examine your beliefs.
5722
No evil befalls on the earth nor in your own souls, but it is in a book before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to Allah3796
when it is God who has created you and all your handiwork?1132
"from the evil that He has created,6101
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created everything whatsoever and is Aware of all things?379
while God created you and what you do?2868
And your Lord creates what He wills and chooses. Not they have for them the choice. Glory be (to) Allah and High is He above what they associate (with Him as other creators and choosers).2135
Every soul must taste of death, and We prove you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned.7723
For We determine; and We are the best to determine3962
GOD is the Creator of all things, and He alone has the power to determine the fate of all things.873
and who determines the nature , and thereupon guides it ,7630
And not you will except what wills Allah. Indeed, Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise.8129
And you do not even will anything except whatever wills Allah, Lord (of) the worlds.1823
And (do) not say of anything, "Indeed, I will do that tomorrow."
Except, "If Allah wills." And remember your Lord when you forget and say, "Perhaps will guide me my Lord to a nearer (way) than this right way." -
Peace FreedomStands, Please give ayats about "chance" from Quran.
Could you give your opinion of these ayats regarding
free will or lack thereof.1829 ?Say ?The truth is from your Lord.? Let him who will, believe, and
let him who will, reject (it).?4115 ?If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been
plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than what becoming of men
Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,
what an evil refuge!?And finally
1311 ?Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change
it themselves.?It is obvious as per Quran that Allah's will and human will are not contradictory
because our intentions works with Allah's will.God bless
FS is banned temporarily , so I quote him from his post -
"To simplify for everyone, it can only be the following ways logically- God created EVERYTHING IN EVERY DETAIL, thus KNOWS EVERYTHING IN EVERY DETAIL, IS CREATING IT EVEN NOW and THUS KNOWS IT (Never rested or stopped, new experiences are occurring), so the "choice" is only really an illusion, God really created and chooses whatever and they have no choice (as the Qur'an seems to explicitly say even, but this is a matter of good logic!)
or
- God did not really create "EVERYTHING" meaning "ALL" but "SOME" or even "MOST" except not "to choose, the choosing, what we will, what we desire, our turning this way or that way", and so God did not determine what exactly we do and is not the cause of it, but we choose freely, which really means "Chance" determines what we choose, and God runs after us and Chance and waits for Chance to decide.
Please note, I am not denying on the immediate level the appearance of deliberation, desire, and having choices.
It can never be, except as a fallacious statement or logical inconsistency, or "pussy footing" around saying certain things, that "Yes, God created all, nothing is determined by chance, God knows exactly what you will do and created why that would be too, yet did not do it and is not the cause of what he created and thus what he knows. It just can't be true logically.
It is like saying "I made everything, and know what it will do, I did not determine it" what the heck is that? It is an extremely weird statement or idea, which people don't think through. So Chance then determined it if it could go any other way, if it couldn't go any other way then it is God determining all things, but there is no matter what an Ultimate determiner, and for me that is all the same, God or Chance, by whatever name.
It is determining to create and know exactly what one will do. It is like saying "I did this and I am not responsible for it" God says WE are not responsible for it, God is the one responsible for everything." http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607697.msg373785#msg373785
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FS is banned temporarily , so I quote him from his post -
"To simplify for everyone, it can only be the following ways logically- God created EVERYTHING IN EVERY DETAIL, thus KNOWS EVERYTHING IN
EVERY DETAIL, IS CREATING IT EVEN NOW and THUS KNOWS IT (Never rested
or stopped, new experiences are occurring), so the "choice" is only really an
illusion, God really created and chooses whatever and they have no choice
(as the Qur'an seems to explicitly say even,
FreedomStands banned? & Why?
The conclusion in bold does not necessarily follow, supply ayats that say
"so the "choice" is only really an illusion"Also give ayats about "chance" from Quran.
The solution IMHO would be, both are true, God's will and human will coexist
as per Quran even if we cannot comprehend such a phenomenon at the moment.God bless
- God created EVERYTHING IN EVERY DETAIL, thus KNOWS EVERYTHING IN
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On computer vision, we used to do simplification in order to handle big number. For example, how do we trace the edge of an object from an image. Visible light spectrum had about 4 billion range, that is the best definition for our eyes, since above it, it had no use. But, is per se, that is the fact that visible light was on that range? At some degree human had the capability to handle this infinity, at least on this earth, so basically we, at some degree, had the ability to choose because we can handle the infinity. But it doesnot mean we absolutely can choose everything, have a look at your surrounding, yes people can choose, but they almost always choose the bad things, because that is what predetermined by God. When you're alone, can you choose to not falling in love the rest of your life? or choose that you want to stop breathing? We cant. And at certain degree, you cant choose your own fate, everything is predetermined. I oftenly see people having accident on motorcycle, they are a pro, on my perspective, but if it was the time for them to die, even thought they are the best at motorcycle, they suddenly unaware when there is other vehichle on their way. Have a look at sorround you, people always make a wrong choise even thought they can make a good decision, because that is our instinct.
Do we have free-will? At some degree, yes. Do everything was predetermined? At some degree yes.
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On computer vision, we used to do simplification in order to handle big number. For example, how do we trace the edge of an object from an image. Visible light spectrum had about 4 billion range, that is the best definition for our eyes, since above it, it had no use. But, is per se, that is the fact that visible light was on that range? At some degree human had the capability to handle this infinity, at least on this earth, so basically we, at some degree, had the ability to choose because we can handle the infinity. But it doesnot mean we absolutely can choose everything, have a look at your surrounding, yes people can choose, but they almost always choose the bad things, because that is what predetermined by God. When you're alone, can you choose to not falling in love the rest of your life? or choose that you want to stop breathing? We cant. And at certain degree, you cant choose your own fate, everything is predetermined. I oftenly see people having accident on motorcycle, they are a pro, on my perspective, but if it was the time for them to die, even thought they are the best at motorcycle, they suddenly unaware when there is other vehichle on their way. Have a look at sorround you, people always make a wrong choise even thought they can make a good decision, because that is our instinct.
Do we have free-will? At some degree, yes. Do everything was predetermined? At some degree yes.
Peace Farabi thank you, we are finally getting somewhere with this topic.
If I understand you correctly, you agree that "both are true, God's will
and human will coexist as per Quran?" If you do agree then it is for us
to figure out or hypothesize how this works as per Quran.I will introduce the "time element" as a factor.
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Allah is not bound by time since there are ayats about the future
in the Quran. -
Human and Jinn do not know the future as per Quran.
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Angels or some entity like those who visited the people of lot and
the knowledgeable companion of Musa in sura 18 are privy to future events.
Therefore "time" is a factor in understanding free will.
God bless
peace
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This gotten into my mind and it's preety silly. Imagine you saw someone like this, which is common on Indonesia.
https//rehsos.kemsos.go.id/uploads/image/pemulung1.jpg"Sir, we'd like to free you from your burden, remembering you are at 65 this year. Trust me sir, there is no God. And we found the source of your poorness, and that is lack of education, but remember this, there is no fate, so sir you can chose anything you like. And remember this, there is no hell, and of course, no heaven. So sir, for the rest of your life, enjoy your freedom"
;D
I kinda laugh at this story imagined on my dream. I was wonder what's gonna happen to such a person when they know if there is no God, their suffering was for nothing, everything was their own mistake, and there is no relieve like heaven.
That's silly, but that is life.