Samia's worst nightmare from a Sista!

[Rami]

Marriage and Sex According to Torah

May 9, 2009 in Beliefs, Hebrew Israelite, Yahweh, polygyny | Tags Beliefs, Hebrew Israelite, polygamy, polygyny

Opening Remarks
My sisters, I know this is very sensitive and difficult subject for many of us to address and accept. Like many of you, I have struggled over the issues of adultery and polygyny, and the seemingly unfair rules of marriage YAHWAH has created. But, listen to me good, YAH knows what He is doing. He is Elohym. This is His Word, His Rules and His Ways, and how dare we challenge or question the One who gives us life. I say to you, put aside all emotions and opinions and simply receive YAHs word. Here are few things to keep in mind

1. We must stop listening to the worlds wisdom, and heed YAHs laws and wisdom. Ahbeenu will honor our obedience and the steps we take towards righteousness.
2. We must unlearn what the world and Babylon has taught us.
3. We must read exactly what scripture says and understand it as written. We are not to replace Scripture with our opinions and traditions.
4. Learn Torah. Learn what thus says YAHWAH. Willful ignorance of YAHs word is not allowed at this hour.
5. Whether we like it or not, YAHs word is very specific on certain subjects and often times, the rules are different for men and women, particularly on the issues of marriage, sex, adultery, etc.

Suggested Reading
We Want For Our Sisters What We Want for Ourselves by Patricia Dixon (The book can be purchased from Amazon.com and other websites or bookstores. The book reveals that before European world domination, polygyny was practiced in over 80% of the worlds cultures. It has also been practiced throughout Western history and is even done so in contemporary American, however in ways that demoralize women and undermine relationships and families. As an alternative to living without men, Dr. Patricia Dixon proposes open and consensual polygyny or co-partnering for African American women and describes the experiences of those who are making it work)
Plural Marriage for Our Times A Reinvented Option? By Philip L. Kilbride (The book can be purchased from Amazon.com and other websites or bookstores. Kilbride surveys several kinds of polygamy (polygyny, polyandry, group marriage) in various cultures, historical epochs, and religions. He then asks if some versions of plural marriage might be viable in our time. He explores these new varieties of family as he finds them in the United States among Mormons, African-Americans, and New Age spiritual communes. His comparisons with European and African practices shed light on the renewed possibility of security and care giving for our dependent generation who are at risk and who are suffering from fractured family relationships around the globe.)
What is Marriage?
Before we begin to talk about adultery, polygyny and fornication in terms of marriage, we must talk look at marriage according to the Torah.
Genesis 218 YAH declares that it is not good for man to be alone and that he would make man a help meet.
Genesis 224 YAHWAH declares that a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh. This one flesh has spiritual and physical meaning. It means the actual act of intercourse. But, it also means that the two have become one in this entity called marriage. The couple is one spiritually, financially, emotionally, etc. Just as the many members of our single body, work together as one, so do the members of a marriage. As a unit, they are to serve YAHWAH and teach the fruit of their one flesh to serve the Most High. How this marriage occurs, can take on many forms as we will see in this study. To begin, we will use the union of Isaac and Rebekah to show the stages of marriage.
Genesis 24 tells the story of Isaac and Rebekahs marriage. Several things happen in this story that bring us to through the engagement/betrothal, marriage and consummation of the marriage between Isaac and Rebekah

1. Avraham charges his servant with the task of going back to his homeland of Haran to find a wife for his son. Avraham does not want his son to marry one of the Canaanite women, because in Gen. 17 YAH had charged him to be a separate or set apart people. Avraham had no concern whether his servant would find a wife for Isaac or whether the woman would return with his servant. (Gen. 247-
2. Avrahams servant made it to Haran and came upon a well, where women often came as a part of their daily chores. There he prayed that YAH would reveal the right woman through the sign he asked for and grant him success. The first woman who offered he and his camels water. before the servant had finished praying, Rebekah was at the well and met all the requirements of the sign. The servant learned that Rebekah was related to Avraham and Isaac, and gave her the nose ring and bracelets. (Gen. 2411-27) The nose ring is a symbol of marriage proposal similar to the Western culture with rings for the finger. Nose rings were used in Hebrew culture and throughout many other Eastern cultures. (YAH even he gave Ysrael a nose ring. Read Ezekiel 169-14.)
3. Avrahams servant is then taken to Rebekahs family, where he shares his story and the meeting of Rebekah at the well. It is clear to all that it is YAHs will for Rebekah to marry Isaac. Her father agrees and the bride price is paid for Rebekah. At this point, Isaac and Rebekah are engaged or betrothed to be married. (Gen. 2428-59)
4. Avrahams servant takes Rebekah and her handmaid (Rebekahs gift from her father) back to Hebron for the marriage. Isaac and Rebekah meet and he takes her as his wife. This is the marriage. (A feast may or may not have occurred.) (Gen. 2460-67)
5. Isaac not only takes Rebekah as his wife, but he takes her into his tent and loves her. This is the consummation of the marriage. (Gen. 2467)
   From this story, we learn that sex does not constitute marriage. (Later scriptures will also drive home this point.) Prior to meeting each other, Isaac and Rebekah were engage to be married. In Hebrew culture, a woman who is engaged to be married is not to be touched by any other man, or he causes her to commit adultery. Betrothal and marriage are the same. (We will discuss adultery in more detail later.)
   Rebekah is taken to Isaac and he takes her as his wife. We can conclude that marriage has some form of betrothal period. The length of this period can vary. Isaac and Rebekah had a short betrothal, but if you look at the story of Jacob and Rachel and Leah in Genesis 29, you will see long periods of betrothal. Betrothal is marked by asking the womans family for permission to marry. (In our time, we see the man asking the woman.) Upon agreeing to a marriage contract, the bride price is paid. In this story, Avrahams servant took 10 camels bearing gifts to give to Isaacs future wife and her family.
   Following the betrothal, we have a marriage and consummation. The marriage may or may not be marked by a wedding feast. Generally, we see a wedding feast of some sort.
   Note There is absolutely no scriptural requirement that you be married before a priest, preacher, or justice of the peace. There is no requirement that you obtain a marriage license. A marriage license is only relevant for Babylons purposes (i.e., insurance benefits, property division, etc.). If the two parties are truly under the authority of YAH, then a man after YAHs heart will provide accordingly for his wife. In the end, we must give an account to YAH and not to the divorce court or this government.

What is Adultery?

Adultery voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse. Websters, American Heritage Dictionary, www.dictionary.com.

How does Torah define adultery?

Adultery- (Hebrew word is naaph (Strongs #5003 naw-af ) a primitive root; to commit adultery; figuratively, to apostatizeadulterer(-ess), commit(-ing) adultery, woman that breaketh wedlock.

Plainly stated, Torah says that adultery occurs when a woman breaks her marriage or wedding contract. We will look at examples of when this breaking of the marriage contract occurred according to Torah. You will learn that adultery occurs when a man (married or unmarried) has sexual intercourse with a woman who was either married or betrothed to another man. (Note Keep in mind that there is a physical and spiritual side of adultery and this is seen when you examine Exodus 2014. Through this verse, one of the commandments, YAH is telling all of Ysrael to not be spiritually unfaithful to Him, as well as not to engage in physical adultery.)

Lets consider the scriptures

? Leviticus 2010 And the man that committeth adultery with mans wife, that committeth adultery with his neighbours wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
? Deuteronomy 2222 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, the man that lay with the woman, and the woman so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
? Deuteronomy 2223-24 If a damsel a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbours wife so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

a. Here, we see that a married or unmarried man commits adultery if he has sexual intercourse with another mans wife (as King David did with Bathsheba, wife of Uriah) and the woman also becomes an adulteress. This is true whether the woman is fully married (and the marriage has been consummated) or is simply betrothed (marriage, but not consummation).
b. These scriptures emphasis a big difference between Western and Hebrew marriages. In the Western culture, we are told that a husband and wife are joined to each other in this contract, but here we see that a woman is joined to a man in an exclusive contract. Hence, the biblical definition of adultery is a woman who breaks wedlock (or her marriage contract). This will become clearer as we go along.
Summary Adultery can only be determined based on the marital status of the woman involved. So, what does this mean? Clearly, a married man does not commit adultery if he has sex with an unmarried woman. (Like it or not sisters, this is what Torah says.) However, he does commit the sin of fornication, which we will discuss next.

What is Fornication?
Fornication voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other. Websters, American Heritage Dictionary, www.dictionary.com.
What is the Biblical definition of fornication

zanah (Hebrew Strongs #2181) fornication, whoring, whore, harlot, play the harlot, whoredom, and go a whoring.

? is used exclusively in the context of whoring, and occurred when a man (married or unmarried) had sexual intercourse with a woman other than his wife.
? A whore or harlot, in Biblical context, is a woman who engages in such sexual intercourse, including one who prostitutes her body for hire.
? Scriptural examples of zanah and prohibitions against certain unlawful sexual behavior are seen in Leviticus 18

o A man may not uncover the nakedness of his mother (Leviticus 187).
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of his fathers wife (Leviticus 18.
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of his sister (Leviticus 189).
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of his sons daughter (Leviticus 1810).
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of his fathers brothers wife (Leviticus 1814).
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of his sons wife (Leviticus 1815).
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of his brothers wife (Leviticus 1816).
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter (Leviticus 1817).
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her sister while the woman is still living (Leviticus 181.
o A man may not uncover the nakedness of a woman during her menses (Leviticus 1819).
o A man may not have sexual intercourse with another mans wife (Leviticus 1820).
o A man may not have anal sexual intercourse with another male (Leviticus 1822).
o A man may not have sexual intercourse with an animal (Leviticus 1823).
o A woman may not have sexual intercourse with an animal (Leviticus 1823).
? From these scriptures, we see that a man was not to uncover the nakedness of certain people and no animals, under the circumstances mentioned above. If he did, he committed fornication.

porneia (Greek Strongs #4202) fornication, whoring, sexual immorality, marital unfaithfulness, unchastity, and impurity.

? refers to whoring, whether it occurs inside or outside of marriage, but porneia is broad enough to include other forms of sexual immorality, including adultery and incest.

At the heart of it, fornication is any unlawful sexual relation or sexual behavior not condoned by YAHWAH. By its very definition, fornication encompasses adultery, but it also includes all other forms of sexual sins. The scriptures do not make a distinction between married and unmarried people, when addressing the issue of fornication.

? Ezekiel 1626-32 Yerushalayim is compared to a married woman, and YAH says she has committed both adultery and fornication.
? Jeremiah 31-8 a married woman committed whoring (zanah) with many lovers and was given a certificate of divorce. Thus, fornication can be committed whether you are married or unmarried, and YAH is dealing with our sexual immorality.
? 1 Corinthians 51 fornication (porneia) is used to describe a situation where a man commits incest with his fathers wife. This use of fornication or porneia is a clear example of sexual immorality or unlawful sexual relations.
? Other examples of porneia as sexual immorality, committed by a married or unmarried person, are seen in Acts 1523-29 and Revelation 172-5.

Summary Fornication is an issue of sexual immorality or engaging in any sexual behavior YAH has declared unlawful, including adultery. Fornication is committed by a man, whether he is married or unmarried, if he has sexual intercourse with an unmarried or unbetrothed woman. So, yes my sisters, YAH does prohibit our husbands from having casual sex with unmarried or unbretrothed women, without the benefit of marriage. However, should our husbands commit fornication with an unmarried or unbretrothed woman, it is fornication and not adultery. But, we wives, if we have sex with any other man, commit adultery. Is one sin greater than the other? Of course not. Does YAH give men permission to sleep around with women without being married to them? Certainly not.

So, now that we know what fornication is and is not, what does Torah say about pre-marital sex?

? Exodus 2216-17 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
o In this situation, Torah requires a man, who has sex with a virgin woman that is not married or betrothed/engaged, to take her as his wife. He was required to marry her, whether he was already married or not, and pay the bride price.
o The two committed fornication and had sex without the benefit of marriage, but the act of sex or fornication did not automatically make them married.
o If the woman was not a virgin, marriage was not required under the Torah, even though it was an act of fornication.
o Also, if the womans father refused to give her in marriage, the man was released from his obligation to marry the woman, but was still required to pay the expected bride-price.
? Deuteronomy 2228-29 If a man find a damsel a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsels father fifty of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
o Just as noted in the scripture from Exodus 22, we see a man has enticed or persuaded a woman to engage in fornication, and the two are found out. He is required to give her father 50 shekels as a bride price and take her as his wife, whether he is married or not.
o It is assumed that the brides fathers rights have been violated by what had taken place and that appropriate compensation was necessary to offset the loss of the expected bride-price.
o He is not allowed to put her away or divorce her.
o It is important to understand that the words lay hold on do not imply rape. If you read the preceding verses in Deut. 2225-27 you will see the situation of rape described. A study of the Hebrew words will show that this scripture is dealing with a woman who has been enticed or seduced, and ultimately consents to the sex.
? Deuteronomy 2213-15; 20-21 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the damsels virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate And the damsels father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech , saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these my daughters virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred of silver, and give unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, virginity be not found for the damsel Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her fathers house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her fathers house so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
o In this passage, we see that, if a man marries and then decides that he hates his wife for whatever reason, he can claim she wasnt a virgin when they were married.
o Her parents were then required to produce the tokens of her virginity (i.e., the bloody sheets). When the hymen of a virgin is broken for the first time, blood is generally discharged. The brides parents kept the bloody sheets following consummation or the honeymoon night.
o If the parents were able to produce the proof of her virginity, then the Elders of the city chastised the husband and required him to pay womans father 100 shekels of silver for the evil he had spoken against the woman and her family.
o However, if the parents were unable to produce the proof of their daughters virginity and the elders determine the woman was not a virgin on her wedding night, then the then the woman is to be stoned to death at her fathers doorstep. She brought shame on her fathers house with her whoring and YAH requires that the evil of such unlawful behavior be purged from among Ysrael.
o Again, any act of sex, prior to marriage, is whoring and fornication in the eyes of YAH. It doesnt matter if you did it one time or 100 times.
o We must cleanse ourselves and our nation of such immoral and unlawful behavior.

What is Polygyny? What does the Torah say about Multiple Marriages?
Polygamy the practice or condition of having more than one spouse. Polygamy includes polygyny and polyandry. (American Heritage Dictionary, www.dictionary.com.)
Polyandry the practice or condition of having more than one husband at one time. (American Heritage Dictionary, www.dictionary.com.)
Polygyny the practice or condition of having more than one wife at one time. (American Heritage Dictionary, www.dictionary.com.)
*Biblically, polygyny is simply when two or more women are married to one man at the same time. Also, biblically speaking, polygyny is the only thing permitted by the scriptures.

First, we must understand and accept that under the Old and New Covenant, polygyny was allowed by YAHWAH. While Western culture looks at polygyny as something evil or immoral, YAHs word never speaks of polygyny is in this negative manner. YAH never required men, who engaged in polygyny to repent for having multiple wives. There are several examples of polygyny in the scriptures
? Lamech had two wives, Adah and Zillah (Genesis 419)
? Esau had five wives, Judith and Basemath (Genesis 2634), Mahalath (Genesis 289)
? Jacob had four wives, Leah (Genesis 2923), Rachel (Genesis 292, Bilhah (Genesis 304), and Zilpah (Genesis 309).
? David had several wives, including Micah (1 Samuel 1827), Ahinoam, Abigail, Maacah, Haggith, Abital and Eglah (2 Samuel 32-5). Also, YAH said through the prophet Nathan that He gave Sauls wives to David (2 Samuel 12. David was already married to multiple wives, but YAH gave him more wives. YAH never punished or chastised David for his multiple wives.
? Solomon also had multiple wives. The difference between Solomon and David is that Solomons many foreign wives caused him to follow after their gods, and takes his hear off of YAH.
YAHWAH gave laws concerning multiple or plural wives
? Exodus 2110-11 If he take him another ; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. (Note Read Exodus 217-11 to get the full context)
o In this scripture, YAH deals with a man, who has married his servant. Specifically, YAH say, if that man marries another wife after the servant, he is not to diminish his first wifes food, clothing or marital rights.
o More importantly, the scripture shows the YAH not only permitted polygyny, but also gave laws governing multiple wives.
? Deuteronomy 255 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger her husbands brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of a husbands brother unto her.
o In this passage, YAH commands a living brother to marry his deceaseds brothers wife, if the deceased brother dies without living children or a son.
o The marriage status of the living brother is not addressed; therefore, we do not know if this brother is already married or not. He could be single, but he could also be married.
o Regardless, he is required to marry his deceased brothers wife and in verses 6 it says that any firstborn of this marriage is to inherit and be named after the deceased brother. (The purpose of this law was to keep land in the family and to protect young widows of child-bearing age.)
o Thus, we have a command from YAH allowing a man to engage in polygyny.
? Deuteronomy 2110-14 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the YAHWAH thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
o Again, YAHWAHs commands make no mention as to whether the man is already married or not.
o A man is simply given permission to marry a woman taken captive after war and instructed on how to deal with her.
o The shaving of her head is a sign that she is no longer under the cover any former authority or person. Thus, she removes her old covering. After 30 days, she becomes the wife of the Ysraelite man and is now under his covering.
o If he consummates the marriage with sex, but then decides he does not want her, he cannot sell her for money, but must free her to go where she desires.
? Deuteronomy 2115-17 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, the beloved and the hated; and the firstborn son be hers that was hated Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit which he hath, he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, the firstborn But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath for he the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn his.
o This law does NOT condemn the man who has two wives.
o Rather, it instructs him on how he is to deal with the children born from his two wives.
? Leviticus 1818 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex , to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life .
o In the scripture, YAH forbids a man to marry his wifes sister, while his wife is alive.
o YAH could have forbidden polygyny, but He did not.
? Deuteronomy 1714-20 When thou art come unto the land which the YAHWAH thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; 15Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the YAHWAH thy God shall choose one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. 16But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses forasmuch as the YAHWAH hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. 17Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. 18And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites 19And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life that he may learn to fear the YAHWAH his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them 20That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.
o This passage of scripture is YAHWAHs command to the kings of Ysrael.
o In verse 17, he instructs the king to not multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away from YAH. Many use this verse to claim that YAH prohibited kings from having more than one wife; however, they misinterpret the scriptures. While the scripture clearly places a limit on the king, it does not keep him from having more than one wife.
o In the scripture, the king is told that he is not to increase his horses, gold, silver and wives. However, does this mean that the king could not have a few horses, gold, silver and wives? No.
? David had at least 100 horses (2 Samuel 84), and in this, he did not disobey Elohim (1 Kings 155).
? David had silver and gold (2 Samuel 1230; 2424) and he did not disobey Elohim.
? David had at least 8 wives and 10 concubines (2 Samuel 314; 1516; 1 Chronicles 31-9) and yet he was not disobedient against Elohim in these things, except when it came to Uriyah and his wife Batsheba.
? On the other hand, we have Solomon, who clearly disobeyed YAH when it came to multiplying wives unto him, because Solomons foreign wives and their foreign gods turned his heart from YAHWAH.
? Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 113). Yet, YAH only judges him for his marriage of foreign women (1 Kings 111-2; Deuteronomy 71-4) and the idolatry, which resulted from these marriages (1 Kings 119-10).
? Solomon, unlike his father King David, did not follow YAHWAH completely. (I Kings 116)
o Conclusion This law only applies to kings, who were given the authority to lead the people of Ysrael. Kings were to guide the people spiritually and physically. Thus, their hearts could not be led astray after other gods. However, it is very important that we understand that kings could certainly have more than one wife and that this law did not apply to other Ysraelite men. While Ysrael no longer has a physical king, other men should certainly exercise the caution put forth in this command, to insure their hearts are not turned from YAH to idolatry.

Summary Polygyny was allowed by YAHWAH. Throughout the old and new testament, you will not see the issue of multiple wives condemned by YAH or Yahoshua. We must understand that YAH did not condone fornication, and thus, often required a man to marry a virgin woman after having sex with her, regardless of his marital status at the time.

Another crucial point, is that the permission of the current wife or wives was not required before a man took another wife. However, should all parties be clear in their understanding of YAHs word and perhaps discuss the matter to encourage peace and oneness in the home? Yes, in my opinion. Yet sisters, we must ask YAHWAH to purge our hearts of Western culture, thinking and selfishness. A second wife does not mean that your husband loves you any less. A second wife does not mean that you now have a slave to do all your housework and take care of the children. A second wife is a sister wife and friend. She is to be a blessed addition to your marriage and home. A multiple wife situation may offer covering to a single woman, who has no other covering or protection.

As a final point, I want to stress that this may not be for everyones home and marriage. However, we must gain understanding of YAHs word on this matter so that we do not judge others whom YAH blesses with this type of family. Additionally sisters, you must gain wisdom and knowledge on this matter in the even that YAH should see fit to bless your husband and home with another wife. Many will leave their home and marriage, because of selfishness and lack of understanding. Some will leave because they think it is illegal. Please seek YAH and His word before you act on your own will.

What about Concubines? (Concu what?&#8221

Concubine 1) a woman who cohabits with a man to whom she is not legally married, esp. one regarded as socially or sexually subservient; mistress; 2) (among polygamous peoples) a secondary wife, usually of inferior rank. (American Heritage Dictionary, www.dictionary.com.)

What is the Biblical definition of concubine?

piylegesh (pee-leh-ghesh or pilegesh {pee-leh-ghesh}) (Hebrew Strongs #6370) of uncertain derivation; a concubine; also (masculine) a paramourconcubine, paramour.

What does Torah say about concubines?

1. First, we must understand that a concubine relationship was not sexually immoral or fornication.

2. Second, a concubine was considered a wife. Yes, she was married to the man. In most cases, a woman is called a concubine in one part of scripture and a wife in another. See the following examples

o Davids 10 concubines are called his concubines and his wives, by YAHWAH. (2 Samuel 1211; 1621-22).
o Keturah is called Abrahams concubine in 1 Chronicles 132, but his wife in Genesis 251.
o The Levites concubine mentioned in Judges 19 and 20 committed whoring against him (Judges 192) and left her husband (Judges 193). She is called a concubine in Judges 191,2,9,24,25,29; 204 and 5, yet at the same time, her male partner, the Levite, is called her husband in Judges 193 and 204. In addition, the concubines father is called the father-in-law (Judges 194,7,9), and the Levite is called the son-in-law (Judges 195).
3. Third, the difference between a wife and concubine is that the concubine was usually a servant or slave, and not free, like a wife. We see several examples of maidservants or slave women being married in scripture. In such cases, they were considered concubine-wife.
o Bilhah, Jacobs concubine (Genesis 3522), whom Rachel gave to him for a wife (Genesis 303-4), was a slave.
o Zilpah was also a slave-wife or concubine to Jacob, who was given to him by Leah (Genesis 3526; 309).
4. Fourth, YAHWAH gave specific laws pertaining to the marriage of and sexual relationships with female slaves.
o Exodus 217-11 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
o Here we see that slave girls could be betrothed or married by their masters.
o YAH provided that a slave-wife was not to be mistreated, even if the man took another wife.
o A slave wife was to be treated in the same manner as other daughters-in-law.
o However, if she was put away as a wife, or mistreated, then she was free to go, but without any money or inheritance. She was only entitled to her freedom.
o Leviticus 1920 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
o This law concerns a maidservant who has been engaged or betrothed (and the marriage has not be consummated) to a man, who has not been able to redeem or buy her from her master.
o If the master lies with the slave woman, she is not to be put to death as free woman would have for committing adultery (Deut. 2223-24), because she is a slave and had no choice in the matter. The adultery is not accounted to her. However, the master was required to make an offering before YAHWAH for his adultery and fornication.
o Again, neither is put to death, because of the womans status.

5. Fifth, some women in scripture considered it a pleasing unto YAHWAH for them to give their servant or slave girl to their husband as a wife. Consider the following example of Leah
   o Genesis 309, 17-18 9) When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife. 17) And God hearkened unto Leah, and she conceived, and bare Jacob the fifth son. 1 And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband and she called his name Issachar.
   o As we see, Leah had given Zilpah, her maidservant, to Jacob as a wife because she thought she could not bear any more children. (Genesis 309)
   o Leah continued to pray to YAH for more sons. YAH heard her prayer and she gave birth to a 5th son.
   o Leah believed that YAHWAH has blessed her with another son, because he she had unselfishly given Zilpah, her maidservant, to her husband, Jacob.
   o What selflessness and strength!! Leah and Rachel both wanted to bear children for their husband and for the nation that they gave their maidservants to their husband as wives.
   o While we may not be focused on building the nation of Ysrael, we must consider whether we would be willing to put aside our own selfishness to bless our husbands with children, if YAH had not seen fit to open our womb. Would you humble yourself before YAHWAH and your husband and submit to his decision to take a second wife or suggest a second wife to him?

Summary Yes, concubines were wives and YAHWAH gave specific laws concerning the care for such wives. They were not mistresses or illicit sexual partners for men.

What about New Testament writings on the subject?

1. Yahoshua coming did not change these laws.
   a. Matthew 517-18 tells us that Yahoshua did not come to change or destroy the law, but to fulfill it. In the Torah, YAH clearly defined lawful and unlawful sexual behavior. He further gave laws regarding multiple wives and allowed the men of Ysrael to have multiple wives without condemning them for doing so. Yahoshua did not change these laws.
   b. Matthew 2223-30 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Yahoshua answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
   i. Wow, here it is!! A perfect time for Yahoshua to have condemned polygyny, but He does not.
   ii. As we have already discussed, under Torah, if a man died without an heir, his brother was required to marry the dead mans wife and raise the first son as heir to the dead brother. This was the law, regardless of whether the brother was already married or not.
   c. Matthew 251-10 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage and the door was shut
   i. Rather than condemn polygyny in the prior passage in Matthew 22, Yahoshua comes back and uses a polygynous based parable to make a point about being prepared for His return.
   ii. Here we have 10 virgins waiting for one bridegroom. Five are ill-prepared and run out of oil to keep their lamps burning. At midnight the call of the bridegroom came, but the five unprepared virgins had no oil in their lamps. They had to leave and get some more oil for their lamps. While the five, unprepared virgins were gone, the bridegroom came and the five prepared virgins were welcomed into the marriage feast to marry the bridegroom.
   iii. While the parable is used to make a spiritual point on taking heed and being prepared for Yahoshuas return, He often used things in the Hebrew culture to make His point. Here, Yahoshua used the idea of polygyny, marriage and wedding feast, as it is something the people understood very well.
   iv. Again, He did not condemn the practice of polygyny.
   d. Romans 72-3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
   i. In these verses, Shaul/Paul uses the laws of Torah concerning adultery to teach us a principal concerning the law and Yahoshua. (Read the entire chapter for context.)
   ii. If Yahoshuas coming had changed the laws of adultery, Shaul would have said so. Yet, he uses this law to drive home a point regarding the death and resurrection of Yahoshua and what that should mean to us as believers.
   iii. YAH established laws concerning polygyny and adultery and those laws did not change under the New Covenant.
2. The one wife verses in Timothy and Titus do not prohibit polygyny.
   a. What are the scriptures?
   i. I Timothy 31-5 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
   ii. I Timothy 312 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well
   iii. Titus 16 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
   b. How is one defined?
   i. www.dictionary.com being or amounting to a single unit or individual or entire thing, item, or object rather than two or more; a single one woman; one nation; one piece of cake.
   ii. Greek Strongs Concordance #3391 (3391. mia mee-ah irregular feminine of 1520; one or firsta (certain), + agree, first, one, X other.)
3. Other uses of mia in the New Testament, where mia is clearly intended to mean first, as in a number sequence.
   a. Matthew 281 (first day of the week)
   b. John 2019 (first day of the week)
   c. Titus 310 (first and second warning)
   d. Revelations 6
   i. This chapter tells of the opening of the seals. In verse 1, the first seal is opened, but John says he saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.
   ii. However, later in Rev. 6, the remaining seals are referred to in number sequence as the second seal, third seal, fourth seal, and so on.
   iii. The word used in Rev. 61 for one is mia, which clearly should be interpreted as first.
   c. What do these 3 verses mean in light of Torah permitting polygyny?
   i. First, these verses are part of the letters and not of the scriptures. The letters were written to give instruction and guidance based upon the scriptures.
   ii. The three one wife verses only apply to overseer or bishops, deacons and elders. This advice was not given to other men in the congregation. Thus, they cannot be prohibiting polygyny in general.
   iii. The verses are similar to YAHs commands to the kings of Ysrael. YAH wanted those in position of leadership to rule and govern the people in righteousness and not be led astray by other gods.
   iv. As I Tim. 35 states, having a family (meaning at least one wife and children), suggest that a man has the ability to rule and manage YAHs people. If he has shepherded his own family, he can shepherd YAHs family under the authority of the Most High.
   v. Interpreting mia as first, rather than one, more properly fits within the context of Torah, which clearly allowed polygyny.
   vi. Therefore, the scriptures are simply advising that the leaders and elders should be married to at least one wife or their first wife and not divorced.
4. The own wife or own husband verse in Corinthians do not prohibit polygyny.
   a. I Corinthians 72 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
   i. Let me start by saying that this verse does not give the woman ownership of the husband, and therefore, prevent him from having multiple wives.
   ii. The husband is not the property of the wife. Scripture shows us that it is quite the opposite.
   iii. This verse has two different words being interpreted as own. The two words are heautou and idios. We will examine them below.
   b. How is own defined?
   i. www.dictionary.com of, pertaining to, or belonging to oneself or itself (usually used after a possessive to emphasize the idea of ownership, interest, or relation conveyed by the possessive); to have or hold as ones own; possess.
   ii. Greek Strongs Concordance
5. 1438. heautou, heh-ow-too (incl. all the other cases); from a reflex. pron. otherwise obsol. and the gen. (dat. or acc.) of 846; him- (her-, it-, them-, also my-, thy-, our-, your-) self (selves), etc. -alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own (-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them (-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves).
         a. Heautou implies sole or exclusive ownership. Plainly stated, when this word is used, it means that one entity solely owns another entity without sharing that ownership with another.
         b. Heautou is the word being used when the verse says let every man have his own wife.
         c. Thus, Shaul/Paul is saying let every man have exclusive possession of his wife.
         d. Therefore, the husband does not share ownership of his wife with another. Consider this in light of the definition of adultery and the scriptures discussed under that section.
6. 2398. idios, id-ee-os; of uncert. affin.; pertaining to self, i.e. ones own; by impl. private or separate- x his acquaintance, when they were alone, apart, aside, due, his (own, proper, several), home (her, our, thine, your) own (business), private (-ly), proper, severally, their (own).
         a. Idios implies share or joint ownership of a particular thing by more than one person.
         b. The original Greek word idios is more accurately translated as proper, rather than own as in most English translations.
         c. This word can be understood also when applied to a legal principal called joint and several liability. Under this principal two or more parties share ownership interest in one thing. While the two or more people who own this thing are joined in their venture together, they can be sued separately. A person filing suit does not have to sue them jointly, because each of them has separate ownership rights.
         d. Thus, idios is the word being used in I Corinth. 72 when the verse says let every woman have her own husband.
         e. Shaul/Paul, in line with Torah, is saying let every woman have her proper husband or her husband whom she may share jointly with others.
         f. The English language does not have one word that distinguishes between exclusive and non-exclusive ownership, therefore, the translators use the word own. However, we must seek out the proper meaning of words.
         g. Sisters, like it or not, this is a proper interpretation of the word.
         c. Examine heautou and idios in other scriptures and you will find that the explanation provided above is a more correct interpretation of the scriptures.
         i. Heautou implying exclusive ownership of the object or thing in question
7. Luke 1426 (His own life&#8221 a mans life belongs to him and him alone, it is not shared.
8. Romans 419 (his own body&#8221 a mans body belongs to him and him alone, it is not shared
9. I Corinthians 134-5 (seek its own&#8221 love is not selfish is the point of these verses, as selfishness is about seeking or having that which solely belongs to you.
10. Galatians 64 (his own work&#8221
    ii. Idios implying shared, common or joint ownership of a thing or object
11. Matthew 91 (his own city&#8221 a city does not belong exclusively to just one person, but is shared
12. John 444 (his own country&#8221 a country does not belong to just one person, but is shared
13. Acts 26 (his own language&#8221 a language does not belong exclusively to one person
14. Romans 144 (his own master&#8221 a servant can have only one master, but the master can have many servants. Similarly, a wife can only be led and possessed by one husband, but a husband can lead and possesses many wives.
15. Jude 16 (their own dwelling&#8221 a dwelling is shared

Summary When properly analyzed, the verse in I Corinthians 72 is more accurately saying that to prevent whoring, let every man have his own exclusive wives, and every woman her proper husband. As wives, we belong to our husband and him alone. However, our husbands, being in the place of Yahoshua, would say that my wife belongs to me and me alone. Heautou confirms that a wife or woman is not allowed to be owned by more than one husband. Idios confirms that a husband can be owned by more than one wife, who would jointly and severally, share the ownership of their husband. This interpretation is consistent with the laws against fornication.
Additionally, we must remember that neither YAH nor Yahoshua saw fit to make any changes to the laws concerning polygyny, adultery or fornication. Therefore, we must accept that Torah stands on these issues and will remain until the coming of Yahoshua and the new Kingdom, wherein there shall be no marriage.

[Ex-"Quranist"]

Why are you using the Old Testament? Why not go by the Quran?

6114 Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

BTW The OT was written down by people around 200 BCE - 200 CE.

[Rami]

The Torah is authoritative according to the Quran. I actually posted this to solve the problem with MMA.

It is the concubines.

[Ex-"Quranist"]

The Torah is authoritative according to the Quran. I actually posted this to solve the problem with MMA.

It is the concubines.

As far as I am aware, Deutoronomy and Leviticus, etc. are man-made books, but somehow related to the teachings of Moses and Abraham, etc. although perhaps not. Therefore I do not take those books as an authority.

What do you say to the following explanation?

Edip-Layth - End Note 2 (43)
Polygamy is allowed only to provide psychological, social and economic support for widows with orphans (See 4127). Muhammad's practice of polygamy must have been in accordance with the condition to serve an important social service. Sure, physical attraction of widows might be one of the factors for marriage and there is nothing wrong with that. Those who could afford practicing polygamy, mentally and financially, should try hard to treat them equally, though 4129 expresses the practical impossibly of attaining that ideal. Additionally, the consent of the first wife is necessary; otherwise, she can always seek divorce. It is clear that polygamy is not an ideal form of marriage and an unusual practice allowed for difficult times, such as a dramatic reduction in the male population during wartime. The age gap between marrying men and women creates a surplus of women who will never be able to find a monogamous partner. By a strict prohibition on polygamy, millions of young women are deprived from having a legitimate relationship with men. The only hope for millions of young girls is to get married with already divorced men, perhaps with kids, or to have a relationship born out of promiscuous sexual practices. The Western world does not prohibit polygamy since many males have sexual relationships with more than one woman at the same time. The only thing that modern societies do is deprive those women from the protection of law; they are there to be used, disposed of and recycled by men! The hypocrisy in the modern attitude becomes clear when homosexuality is defended on the pretext of "consenting adults," but the same standards are not afforded to the polygamists. The conditional permission for polygamy is for the psychological and financial protection of children and their widow mothers, in cases of war or natural disaster. Polygamy, according to the Old Testament, started with the seventh generation after Cain and continued as a common practice in the patriarchal age together with having concubines (Genesis 419; 62; 161-4; 2221-24; 288-9; 2923-30, etc.). However, the Old Testament also disapproves of polygamy (Deuteronomy 1717). The Old Testament contains numerous exaggerated stories. One is about the number of Solomon's wives. The roundness of the numbers of wives and concubines and their total, the three numbers being perfectly round, indicate an intentional exaggeration. "And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines and his wives turned away his heart?? (1 Kings 113). It is highly plausible that the word "hundred" was inserted in the text by later scribes to damage the reputation of Solomon for some political agenda. The following verses depict Solomon as an evil person and idolater. The Quran neither accuses Solomon of indulging in a hedonistic sexual life nor of associating partners with God. Ironically, modern Christians are now bashing Solomon for not sticking to monogamy. To be politically correct, modern Christians do not hesitate to condemn the common practice of polygamy among Jews and their prophets. Contrary to the Quran, which exhorts muslims to help widows, the misogynistic Rabbinical teachings inserted into the Old Testament put them in the category of harlots, and finds them unworthy of marriage by the privileged class priests (Leviticus 2114). The expression Ma malakat aymanukum has been translated by most translations as "whom your right hands posses" or "captives" or "concubines." We translated this and similar expressions found in 43,24,25,36; 1671; 236; 2431,33,58; 3028; 3350,52,55; and 7030, as "those with whom you have contractual rights." These were the wives of the enemy combatants who were persecuted because they acknowledged the message of Islam and sought asylum at the Muslim community (6010). Since they did not get through a normal divorce process, an exceptional contract allows them to marry muslims as free women. Marrying them could create some social, economic and personal complications for the husband. They have nothing to do with IBaD (slaves), as sectarian translations and commentaries state. As we will learn, the Quran categorically rejects slavery and considers it to be the greatest sin (See 379; 425,92; 589; 867; 2432-33; 583; 9013; 2286; 1239-42; 7924). The practice of slavery was justified and resurrected to a certain extent via the influence of Jewish and Christian scholars, as well as fabricated hadith and sharia laws, decades after Muhammad's departure. It is ironic that Jews who suffered the most from slavery and were saved by God through the leadership of Moses (Exodus 113-14), later justified enslaving other people, including selling one's own daughter, and inserted that practice into their holy books (Exodus 217-8; 2121-22; 26-27; Leviticus 2544-46; Joshua 96-27). Though Jesus never condoned slavery, St. Paul, the founder of modern Christianity, once asked the masters to treat their slaves nicely (Colossians 322), and asked the slaves to be "submissive to your masters with all fear" (1 Peter 218; Ephesians 65; 1 Timothy 62; Colossians 322; Titus 29) justifying the Marxist maxim, "Religion is the opium of masses." The use of religion by the privileged class to enslave or exploit people is vividly depicted by the South African archbishop Desmond Tutu "When the missionaries came to Africa, they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'let us close our eyes and pray'. When we opened them, we had the Bible, and they had the land." The word YaMYN means "right hand" or metaphorically "right," "power" or "control." However, its plural form aYMaN is consistently mentioned in the Quran to mean not "right hands" but to mean "oaths" or "promises," implying the mutual nature of the relationship (See 433 589; 912; 1691- 94; 2224-225; 3028; 662; 553; 6109). This unique Quranic usage is similar to the semantic difference between the singular and plural forms of the word Ayat (signs) (see 2106). The expression in question, thus could be translated as "those whom your oaths/contracts have rights over" or "those whom you hold rights through your contracts," or by reading aYMaN (oaths/contracts) as an object rather than a subject, "those who hold/possess your contracts." The marriage declaration is a mutual partnership between two sexes and is formed by participation of family members. A married woman cannot marry another man without getting divorced from her husband. However, if a woman escapes and joins muslims while her husband stayed behind participating in a war against muslims, she may marry a Muslim man without actually getting divorced from her combatant husband; she will legally be considered a divorcee (6010). Since this contract is different from the normal marriage contract, this special relationship is described in different words. The same is valid for a man whose wife allies with the hostile enemy. See 2431 and 3355. Those who work for another person according to employment contracts are also referred to with the same expression. See 1671; 3028. Also, see 425,36; 236; 2458; 3350; 3352; 7030. The Quran does not demand those who lived together based on a mutual promise (AYMaN) during the days of ignorance, without a marriage contract, to get divorced. Similarly, it does not want those who married two sisters before accepting islam to be a way of life (423). This tolerance does not encourage living together without marriage. It only does not want to incur further damage to the family structure and does not want to create hurdles for those who wish to live according to the principles of islam.

[Rami]

Good explanation but highly unlikely due to its modernist tone.

MMA are female slaves. And slavery is allowed in the Quran and the Torah.

[Ex-"Quranist"]

MMA are female slaves. And slavery is allowed in the Quran

o o o o o o o o o

WHAT?!?! Are you kidding? Slavery is strongly discouraged in the Quran.

Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves.

Also read this article http//www.submission.org/islam/slavery.html

and the Torah

Not an authority for me.

[Rami]

WHAT?!?! Are you kidding? Slavery is strongly discouraged in the Quran.

Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves.

Also read this article http//www.submission.org/islam/slavery.html

It is not freeing slaves, it is helping people in debt. Slavery is important or many people will starve!!!

[Ex-"Quranist"]

It is not freeing slaves, it is helping people in debt. Slavery is important or many people will starve!!!

Slavery is discouraged. Read the article. Read the Quran - we are to free salves.

[Rami]

2178 O you who believe, equivalent execution in warfare has been decreed for you in the case of mass killings; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. Whoever is forgiven anything by his brother, then it is to be followed with good deeds and kindness towards him; that is an alleviation from your Lord, and a mercy. Whoever transgresses after that, he will have a painful retribution.

[Ex-"Quranist"]

2178 O you who believe, equivalent execution in warfare has been decreed for you in the case of mass killings; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. Whoever is forgiven anything by his brother, then it is to be followed with good deeds and kindness towards him; that is an alleviation from your Lord, and a mercy. Whoever transgresses after that, he will have a painful retribution.

Doesnt change that it is discouraged. Please read the article and you will understand. Salvery was a common practice in the barbaric Aabic culture of the 7th century. Therefore, an early prohibition would not have been very clever.
Slavery has been abolished step by step. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran to take slaves, except for prisoners of war, who have to be treated well and freed after war.

[Rami]

Doesnt change that it is discouraged. Please read the article and you will understand. Salvery was a common practice in the barbaric Aabic culture of the 7th century. Therefore, an early prohibition would not have been very clever.
Slavery has been abolished step by step. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran to take slaves, except for prisoners of war, who have to be treated well and freed after war.

So there is abrogation in the Quran!! You are TOAST man! D

Tell me a finalizing verse that forbids slavery. Clear cut prohibition not derivative undestanding.

[Ex-"Quranist"]

So there is abrogation in the Quran!! You are TOAST man! D

Tell me a finalizing verse that forbids slavery. Clear cut prohibition not derivative undestanding.

Where did I say that there is a prohibition? I said that it has been ABOLISHED STEP BY STEP.
Please read the article.

Give me one verse from the Quran that tells us to take slaves in normal conditions (ie. not war).

[Rami]

Where did I say that there is a prohibition? I said that it has been ABOLISHED STEP BY STEP.
Please read the article.

Give me one verse from the Quran that tells us to take slaves in normal conditions (ie. not war).

Why do you have problems with slavery? It is important. It is like adopting a person.

I just quoted a verse that has the word slave in it as if it is the norm!

[Bigmo]

Why do you have problems with slavery? It is important. It is like adopting a person.

I just quoted a verse that has the word slave in it as if it is the norm!

You are quoting communal laws which have nothing to do with the deen. The Koran does not seperate between the scriptures and equates them equally. There are so communal laws revealed in the Gospel yet the Koran still acknowledges it just like the others.

Read the Koran carefully

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute

The Koran does not consider the comunal laws as religious laws. These are human laws that humans live by. They change as time goes by and circumstances change. Its part of human reality. The Israelites lived just like their pagan neighbours and these communal laws are identical to the communal laws as their pagan neighbours. If the Koran sees it your way it would not have asked the people of the Gospel to rule by the Gospel when the Gospel has no communal laws in it whatsoever. Jesus did not need them in his lifetime and so did Abraham or Noah or Lot or Job or Ishmael or Jospeh. Yet they are all equal in faith and message and the Koran sees the Gospel as complete and self sufficient . Get rid of this mind set and stop cherry picking from the OT. The OT has many different communal laws and not just the ones you laid out. Look at the story of David and Solomon and the other prophets in the OT and not just the first 5 books there.

[Rami]

You are quoting communal laws which have nothing to do with the deen. The Koran does not seperate between the scriptures and equates them equally. There are so communal laws revealed in the Gospel yet the Koran still acknowledges it just like the others.

Read the Koran carefully

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

45. We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute

The Koran does not consider the comunal laws as religious laws. These are human laws that humans live by. They change as time goes by and circumstances change. Its part of human reality. The Israelites lived just like their pagan neighbours and these communal laws are identical to the communal laws as their pagan neighbours. If the Koran sees it your way it would not have asked the people of the Gospel to rule by the Gospel when the Gospel has no communal laws in it whatsoever. Jesus did not need them in his lifetime and so did Abraham or Noah or Lot or Job or Ishmael or Jospeh. Yet they are all equal in faith and message and the Koran sees the Gospel as complete and self sufficient . Get rid of this mind set and stop cherry picking from the OT. The OT has many different communal laws and not just the ones you laid out. Look at the story of David and Solomon and the other prophets in the OT and not just the first 5 books there.

Suppose you are a follower of the Gospel and there is a case of adultery...what will your judgement be???

[Ex-"Quranist"]

Suppose you are a follower of the Gospel and there is a case of adultery...what will your judgement be???

This question is irrelevant - we have the Quran. It seems as if the Quran is not enough for you.

[Rami]

This question is irrelevant - we have the Quran. It seems as if the Quran is not enough for you.

What will the 'people of the Gospel' do?

[Ex-"Quranist"]

What will the 'people of the Gospel' do?

2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."

2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.

2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.

565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.

566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.

Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh

[afridi220]

2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."

2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.

2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.

565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.

566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.

Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh

yeah peace

[Rami]

2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."

2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.

2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.

565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.

566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.

Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh

I dont. Bigmo does.

But the problem if its not what the hell is it?

Anyway, that is going off-topic.