Samia's worst nightmare from a Sista!
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WHAT?!?! Are you kidding? Slavery is strongly discouraged in the Quran.
Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves.
Also read this article http//www.submission.org/islam/slavery.html
It is not freeing slaves, it is helping people in debt. Slavery is important or many people will starve!!!
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It is not freeing slaves, it is helping people in debt. Slavery is important or many people will starve!!!
Slavery is discouraged. Read the article. Read the Quran - we are to free salves.
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2178 O you who believe, equivalent execution in warfare has been decreed for you in the case of mass killings; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. Whoever is forgiven anything by his brother, then it is to be followed with good deeds and kindness towards him; that is an alleviation from your Lord, and a mercy. Whoever transgresses after that, he will have a painful retribution.
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2178 O you who believe, equivalent execution in warfare has been decreed for you in the case of mass killings; the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. Whoever is forgiven anything by his brother, then it is to be followed with good deeds and kindness towards him; that is an alleviation from your Lord, and a mercy. Whoever transgresses after that, he will have a painful retribution.
Doesnt change that it is discouraged. Please read the article and you will understand. Salvery was a common practice in the barbaric Aabic culture of the 7th century. Therefore, an early prohibition would not have been very clever.
Slavery has been abolished step by step. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran to take slaves, except for prisoners of war, who have to be treated well and freed after war. -
Doesnt change that it is discouraged. Please read the article and you will understand. Salvery was a common practice in the barbaric Aabic culture of the 7th century. Therefore, an early prohibition would not have been very clever.
Slavery has been abolished step by step. NOWHERE does it say in the Quran to take slaves, except for prisoners of war, who have to be treated well and freed after war.So there is abrogation in the Quran!! You are TOAST man! D
Tell me a finalizing verse that forbids slavery. Clear cut prohibition not derivative undestanding.
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So there is abrogation in the Quran!! You are TOAST man! D
Tell me a finalizing verse that forbids slavery. Clear cut prohibition not derivative undestanding.
Where did I say that there is a prohibition? I said that it has been ABOLISHED STEP BY STEP.
Please read the article.Give me one verse from the Quran that tells us to take slaves in normal conditions (ie. not war).
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Where did I say that there is a prohibition? I said that it has been ABOLISHED STEP BY STEP.
Please read the article.Give me one verse from the Quran that tells us to take slaves in normal conditions (ie. not war).
Why do you have problems with slavery? It is important. It is like adopting a person.
I just quoted a verse that has the word slave in it as if it is the norm!
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Why do you have problems with slavery? It is important. It is like adopting a person.
I just quoted a verse that has the word slave in it as if it is the norm!
You are quoting communal laws which have nothing to do with the deen. The Koran does not seperate between the scriptures and equates them equally. There are so communal laws revealed in the Gospel yet the Koran still acknowledges it just like the others.
Read the Koran carefully
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But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
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It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
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We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
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And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
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Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
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To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute
The Koran does not consider the comunal laws as religious laws. These are human laws that humans live by. They change as time goes by and circumstances change. Its part of human reality. The Israelites lived just like their pagan neighbours and these communal laws are identical to the communal laws as their pagan neighbours. If the Koran sees it your way it would not have asked the people of the Gospel to rule by the Gospel when the Gospel has no communal laws in it whatsoever. Jesus did not need them in his lifetime and so did Abraham or Noah or Lot or Job or Ishmael or Jospeh. Yet they are all equal in faith and message and the Koran sees the Gospel as complete and self sufficient . Get rid of this mind set and stop cherry picking from the OT. The OT has many different communal laws and not just the ones you laid out. Look at the story of David and Solomon and the other prophets in the OT and not just the first 5 books there.
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You are quoting communal laws which have nothing to do with the deen. The Koran does not seperate between the scriptures and equates them equally. There are so communal laws revealed in the Gospel yet the Koran still acknowledges it just like the others.
Read the Koran carefully
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But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
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It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
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We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
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And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
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Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
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To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute
The Koran does not consider the comunal laws as religious laws. These are human laws that humans live by. They change as time goes by and circumstances change. Its part of human reality. The Israelites lived just like their pagan neighbours and these communal laws are identical to the communal laws as their pagan neighbours. If the Koran sees it your way it would not have asked the people of the Gospel to rule by the Gospel when the Gospel has no communal laws in it whatsoever. Jesus did not need them in his lifetime and so did Abraham or Noah or Lot or Job or Ishmael or Jospeh. Yet they are all equal in faith and message and the Koran sees the Gospel as complete and self sufficient . Get rid of this mind set and stop cherry picking from the OT. The OT has many different communal laws and not just the ones you laid out. Look at the story of David and Solomon and the other prophets in the OT and not just the first 5 books there.
Suppose you are a follower of the Gospel and there is a case of adultery...what will your judgement be???
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Suppose you are a follower of the Gospel and there is a case of adultery...what will your judgement be???
This question is irrelevant - we have the Quran. It seems as if the Quran is not enough for you.
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What will the 'people of the Gospel' do?
2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."
2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.
2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh
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2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."
2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.
2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh
yeah peace
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2885 Surely, the One who decreed the Quran to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say, "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray."
2886 Nor did you expect this book to come your way; but this is a mercy from your Lord. Therefore, you shall not side with the rejecters.
2887 Nor shall you be diverted from God's signs/revelations, after they have come to you. Invite to your Lord, and do not be of those who set up partners.
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware/upholding Divine Laws, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
Do you seriously think that the New Testament is the "Injeel"?! laugh
I dont. Bigmo does.
But the problem if its not what the hell is it?
Anyway, that is going off-topic.
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Peace,
This question is irrelevant - we have the Quran. It seems as if the Quran is not enough for you.
Maybe I'm missing (or misunderstanding) something... You believe that the Torah is "done away with" since the Qur'aan has been revealed? This is the same idea the Christians fabricated, when they said that Jesus did away with the Torah... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not the true word of G-d, there's nothing that says that G-d's people should discard the Torah, and there's nothing that says that we shouldn't follow it's guidance. In fact, it says the opposite; Jews are still expected to abide by the laws of Torah, the Nazarenes are still expected to follow the guidance of the Enjeel, and the followers of Muhammad (among the gentile nations) are expected to follow the doctrines of the Qur'aan...
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Peace Ahmad
Peace,
Maybe I'm missing (or misunderstanding) something... You believe that the Torah is "done away with" since the Qur'aan has been revealed? This is the same idea the Christians fabricated, when they said that Jesus did away with the Torah... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that the Torah is not the true word of G-d, there's nothing that says that G-d's people should discard the Torah, and there's nothing that says that we shouldn't follow it's guidance. In fact, it says the opposite; Jews are still expected to abide by the laws of Torah, the Nazarenes are still expected to follow the guidance of the Enjeel, and the followers of Muhammad (among the gentile nations) are expected to follow the doctrines of the Qur'aan...
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Rami has quoted many things from the OT (ie. Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.)
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297 Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."
548 Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.
- As you might know, the Bible is a man-made book composed out of the man-made OT and the man-made NT, although they might be/are somewhat related to the teachings of the previous messengers. So the Bible is NOT the Injeel. So what are they expected to follow?! The Torah as we know it today might also have been altered and it probably was. Although it is not entirely man-made/has a lot of it's original contents, although we cant prove it.
Please read the following
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
568 Say, "O people of the book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Injeel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." For many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the ingrates.
569 "Those who acknowledge, those who are Jewish, those who are the followers of other religions, and the Christians -Whoever acknowledges God and the Last day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."
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Peace Progressive,
- Rami has quoted many things from the OT (ie. Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc.)
Yes, and there's nothing wrong with quoting from the Torah, which is also the word of G-d...
- 297 Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."
548 Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.
Okay... Considering this, why do you allege that the Torah is corrupted? The Qur'aan doesn't say this; rather it says that the Torah is preserved and confirmed... The passage you quoted in 548 is dependent on the translation, since the literal meaning for it says that the Qur'aan is "confirming what is between his hands (Torah) and protecting it". There's no clear indication that the scripture is talking about the Qur'aan superceding the Torah at all, and this is completely based on the translator's (in this case, Rashad Khalifa's) interpretation. The Torah is not superceded, it's guarded... As a clear guide, you have to acknowledge that "muslimoon"/submitters existed long before Muhammad, and long before the revelation of the Qur'aan. Therefore, adhering solely to the Qur'aan is NOT a prerequisite for being a muslim. It's simply a guide for those who haven't received the Torah or Enjeel...
The Jews are instructed to continue following Torah, and the Nazarenes are told to continue following the Enjeel. The Qur'aan is for those who don't belong to either of these groups...
Please read the following
565 If the people of the book only would have acknowledged and been aware, We would have cancelled for them their sins and admitted them to gardens of paradise.
566 If they had upheld the Torah, the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but many of them commit evil.
568 Say, "O people of the book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Injeel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." For many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the ingrates.
569 "Those who acknowledge, those who are Jewish, those who are the followers of other religions, and the Christians -Whoever acknowledges God and the Last day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve."
I agree... Also, look at the verse that follows that one
We took an agreement with the children of Israel, and We sent to them messengers. Whenever a messenger came to them with what their souls do not desire, a group they denied, and a group they killed. And they thought there would be no test, so they became blinded and they became deaf; but G-d forgave them. Then they blinded and deafend many others, and G-d is knowing what they do. (570, 71)
Here, it implies that the Qur'aan is a test for the Jews, to see if they will maintain their covenant (or agreement) with G-d, or if they will stray. So, they are expected to follow the guidance of the Qur'aan, but ONLY THE GUIDANCE THAT DOESN'T CONFLICT WITH THE TORAH. Therefore, since the Qur'aan claims to confirm and support the Torah, then the Jews' responsibility is to continue upholding what was sent down to them (Torah). On matters that the Torah doesn't mention, they should turn to the Qur'aan. The Nazarenes are the same way in terms of following the guidance of the Enjeel. Nothing says they should forsake the Torah and Enjeel; rather it says the opposite...
Like I said, the Torah is a guidance for the Jews. The Enjeel is also a guidance for the Jews, but it's for those who accepted Jesus as their maschiach. The Qur'aan is for the non-Jews who didn't receive the message from any of the Jewish messengers, or the gentile nations. Those who already received G-d's messages are expected to uphold them... At least that's my take on the issue...
Peace,
Ahmad
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There is no such thing as Injil. It is only the Torah which is simply the instructions of YHVH to the Israelites to function as a nation and to represent God's will on Earth. Period.
There is no such thing as Nazarene should follow the Injil. This is propaganda targeted to hate the Jewish people.
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Peace Rami,
There is no such thing as Injil. It is only the Torah which is simply the instructions of YHVH to the Israelites to function as a nation and to represent God's will on Earth. Period.
There is no such thing as Nazarene should follow the Injil. This is propaganda targeted to hate the Jewish people.
This is a debatable argument. There was a group called the Nazarenes who actually followed the teachings of Rabbinic Judaism, yet they believed that Jesus was a maschiach. The Ebionites also believed in the teachings of Jesus, viewing him as a great teacher and rabbi, an enforcer of Rabbinical law and the Torah... What is your view of these groups? Both of them were Jews, and both followed the guidance of Torah throughout their lives. Yet they claim a book (possibly referred to as "Enjeel" was actually taught by Jesus, supporting the Torah. The Nazarenes alleged that this book was actually sent down to Jesus from G-d Himself, passed to him from Moses and Elijah. What do you think of this?